Hi,

I have this Handbrake :

USB Handbrake Racing, 14Bit PC USB Handbrake for Racing Games G27 G25 G29 T500 T300 Fanatecosw LFS Dirt Rally
(From Amazon)

the device is recognized by Windows 11 but it's named it is in Chinese!


So what can I do to make it work in Live for speed ?
https://imgur.com/a/GqAy8nM

Thanks

Woren out belts change their length - just an another point from car world, but its more about cam timing precision not transmission.
Absolutely agree with u Rane, but mostly about constantly fixed ratio of geared elements such as encoder-to-motor and etc.
Speaking about wheels in general, well just wanna say that i had a DFGT back in the days, and still consider it as a bang for a buck even compared with t300
In the other hand, Logi wheels use 2ms usb polling(confirmed for g27 and momo which is even 10ms) while t300 is as fast as a decent gaming mice(1ms), and lets be honest 12 bits provides x16 more resolution than 8 bits
I dont say u guys are all wrong, but all those hardware and software details must be understood correct, and then u probably will decide to just stay on mouse or g27

P.S. Dude who started the topic asking nothing except of trueforce™ in LFS is now like "WTF..."

Last edited by paket42x, Sun 14 Jan 2024, 19:51.

Logitech's trueforce has 4kHz ffb refresh rate, which is revolutionary in it self. This opens up many possibilites, but unfortunately not many games utilize it. With such a high update rate the bandwith of ffb signal is increased from tens of Hz to 2kHz. Vibrations mainly fall under the 100Hz range and everything above that falls into the audible range, so what games do is just relay part of the audio signal into ffb signal. This is in my opinion useless as we already use our ears to sense it, but it makes a great marketing.

Another thing is, to be able to reproduce 2kHz signals with an electric motor (bare in mind it is not a speaker), it has to be extremely sensitive and with a tiny rotor inertia. This can be done only with a powerful 3 phase AC servo motor, like the ones found in direct drive wheels. Normal brushed DC motor like the RS570 found in logi G25, G27, G29, G920, G923 has no chance at reproducing such high frequencies.

DirectInput API is old indeed (developed in 1999) but it's widely used. It consists of 12 ffb effects and some more flexibility like fade in, fade out, durration, delay and so on (borrowed from MIDI). Again, rarely any game uses more than 1 or 2 ffb effects. It is always the easiest for developer to use the game engine and calculate all the relevant forces internally, sum them up and send to ffb device through 1 ffb effect - constant force, a single value of force with additional details like magnitude and direction in case device supports more than 1 ffb axis. This effect is then called many times per second like in LFS 100Hz, to give an illusion of dynamic forces. This rate is crucial for correctly reproducing all relevant details. The remaining 11 ffb effects usually refered as canned effects are the periodic effects like sine, square, triangle, sawtoothup and sawtoothdown. In principle with a linear combination of these one can produce an arbitrary wave, but it's a hard way and games simply just use a triangle for curb effects. This is quite robotic as amplitude and frequency are fixed throughout effect durration. There are also effects that depend on (steering) axis position like spring, on axis speed or 1st derivative of position like damper and friction and finaly on 2nd derivative or acceleration of axis like inertia. There are also some more time dependent effects like ramp and custom force where one can play a predefined force sample. It is quite a versatile API but games mainly use only constant force effect.

Ok, not to make long story even longer, I think this gives some overall idea of how ffb works to anyone who was wondering about it Once Scawen release updated LFS with 1000Hz physics and ffb refresh rate, it's gonna be better than trueforce. At the moment, ACC holds a record for highest ffb update rate of up to 400Hz.

Last edited by rane_nbg, Tue 9 Jan 2024, 20:23.

Quote from PbFOOT :

Hello All,
I joined in 2009, played a bit but got sidetracked with life. Now, I'm back, with all the time and money in the world! So, after carving my initials in lots of guardrails, I will begin racing as I intended 14 years ago. I would appreciate any suggestions on wheel/pedal setups. I have a cheapo Logitech Momo racing G25. I build a tube steel frame to mount a seat, monitors and controls. I just need help choosing what to stuff it with and what systems work best on this site. Looking to have as much fun as possible before I turn 70. Cheers!

Welcome.
Regarding wheels, there is no "Logitech Momo racing G25."
The "Logitech Momo" and "Logitech G25" are two seperate models, not sure which one you have?
Those are the two wheels I also used and had lots of fun with both.
The Momo is a bit dated by now, with its small turning range of 240° (if I recall correctly) and the pedals feel quite lightweight but are useable.
The G25 is also older but still a good choice. It comes with a clutch and H-shifter which is nice.
The later models are named G27 and G920, I have not used those but I think not much has changed in their construction.
For the brake pedal, sometimes people put in a harder spring, pieces of rubber or a small ball so that the pedal feels stiffer.
There is also the option to modify the brake pedal with a "load cell", so that braking strength works by how hard you push the pedal, instead of how far.
Another popular brand if you are willing to "go up one step", also in price, is Fanatec.
There are also direct-drive Wheels, which give stronger and more accurate feedback but it can get pricey quickly.

If you are into electronic tinkering then you can throw in something like this:


For tripple-screen I had removed the frames on my screens (quite old ones with wide frames) so that I could put them closer together. In graphics options there is a useful setting "bezel compensation" where you can set how wide your screen bezels/frames are.

If it help: I've raced against JayDeM, if connection is laggy, i've saw the bike falled and sound too, it a bite dissapointing. I have a G27 with vr, for the bike i use the laptop of my girlfriend with a XBOX controller, "A" button is for rear brake, B button is for up gear, X for down gear, LB clutch, RT gaz, RB brake. If steer bike begin to move at break, you need reduce brake, small rear brake and gaz, you can also begin to break with rear before front brake, in high speed, if you brake too late, keep your angle and light rear brake with the new patch, that more stable. Maybe add a new sound when you fall with bike? Bike is a new dimension and i love it! Tyres after 5 laps is over.

Last edited by NENE87, Wed 25 Oct 2023, 11:24.

power adapter;
i was buying new G923 and identical problem... pc detect, but without reaction whell rotation and FF ,, pedal work, diode on whell work, systen detect work, but POWER adapter destroy. i was having G27 also only change adapter (24V 1.75A) and my g923 working...first reaction you whell must by automatical calibration rotation when you put in USB connect.

Last edited by WestlY, Mon 14 Aug 2023, 11:05.

Hello.

I don't think you need to worry to much if they're gonna wear out. I had mine on 10%-12% when i was first starting out with my G27 and it lasted for a good 5 years. I spent most of the time drifting, which would also mean a constant steering and use of the gears.

You just need to stick with what feels comfortable to drive with.
Keep in mind that you can use comma (,) and period (.) to decrease and increase the force feedback. That way you don't have to go into the settings every time.

Hi guys ive been away from lfs since around 2009 where before i used a g27 now i have a vrs dd wheel and heuksinkveld pedals and was wondering if any one else used this setup and if they could help with wheel settings profile wise in both these controllers as the feeling im getting in the game is vague and not 1/1 and i expect it too be alot better feeling then a belt driven wheel im really loving this game atm but want to get better with the right settings.

Hi, I don't own any of the 2 DD wheels you mentioned, but from what I saw over the years from many different people that use it and from reviews from youtube, it seems that Chinese MOZA is an excellent deal. Any DD you get will provide you with extremely high fidelity of FFB compared to G27, to an extent that will blow your mind Because the reproduction of the FFB signal is very similar to the audio signal, some guys give the following analogy for comparison. All gear and belt-driven wheels are like an old style of the magnetic audio tape played on a handheld music box system, while a DD wheel is more like a CD played on a reasonably powerful Hi-Fi audio system.

Don't be deceived by low amounts of FFB in LFS. That is actually for most cars the maximum strength of the FFB signal that the game can send, not counting the GTi cars, which need about 35% or so for clipping. All downforce cars start to show FFB clipping already at about 10%. It's just how Scawen scaled the forces and he did it way back in the past when FFB wheels were so low-res that one had to boost FFB above the point of clipping, just to be able to feel anything at least in the range of small forces, at the expense of pretty much nonexistent details in mid and high range of forces due to severe clipping.

Last edited by rane_nbg, Thu 29 Jun 2023, 13:46.

Anyone using R9 in LFS? How's the FFB like?

I'm looking to upgrade my broken G27 for either Moza R9 or CSL DD 8nm and just wondering which one would be the better wheel for me.

I always used only 15% ffb in-game and 107% from the profiler settings so I'm probably not too interested in the overall strength of the wheel per se, but how it transfers the track details into my hands. In the past I probably would've asked which one is faster but these days I'm just as interested in the overall immersion while driving.

I've heard Fanatec customer service can be a struggle and their quality control may not be the best eithee on top of that. Reading the reviews CSL DD might be a little more detailed with its ffb but honestly if the difference isn't too big I'd probably be happy to pay for the better service.

I can try to find my driver CD, but if i remember correct there was no way to make them work for Win10. I tried some things like finding parameters in registry but didn't go much further as nothing that the internet suggested wasn't really working and not long from that i managed to source myself another G27

Bit funny though, i remember some games' adjustments like wreckfest had an effect on how the ffb behaves but every other game had same issue of centering spring being too strong if FFB was set too weak

Some times Windows (primarily found on windows 10; I use Windows 11 since some months) installs an other driver for G27. You can check that when you start the "USB-Gamecontroller einrichten"" (I know only the german item; perhaps its named like "Configure USB game controller"?) and when you only see parts of the device (e.g. fewer buttons); then the wrong driver was installed (from Windows itself).

Now you need to uninstall the wrong software first and install the "old" Logitech Windows 10 driver (as mentioned above). It works for me on different systems (before on Windows 10 and now also with Windows 11).

Quote from Racon :

I had the same moment of panic with my G29, I'm win7 and hadn't even considered the OS when I got the wheel. The box and the manual both say win 10/11 is required. But, good news, I installed "Logitech Gaming Software" from their site and the wheel is recognised and works perfectly on win7 (except for a row of LEDs)

But the g29 works perfectly with w11, I don't know if it works well for those who have g27 with that operating system.

Hello People, did anyone have problems with the g27 steering wheel and windows 11? About configuring the driver so that it can be recognized by the PC.
Because on the logitech page there are no drivers compatible with w11 for the g27.

Quote from fatalunfair :

Macro that presses the clutch pedal faster than lightning.

E: Ok those laps you mentioned specificly just use button clutch at 10.00 button control rate, not quite as fast as macro but faster than autoclutch and most people who kick the clutch.

THANK YOU . I understand now (I drive with the clutch pedal with basic G25/G27 hardware).

Am I to understand that this is some kind of...cheating? Or not ?

Edit: clarification
I don't mention some laps specifically. I often drive the FZR. So I looked at some of the FZR WRs. The shorter tracks, but others too. I noticed that the accelerator pedal was released when decelerating and not when upshifting. I haven't checked all of the WRs but I imagine everyone does the same thing with all cars.It's just weird.

Last edited by Avraham Vandezwin, Wed 12 Apr 2023, 09:53.

Hi Racon,
I tried this car again last night and couldn't drive it with the G27
The steering wheel slams too hard when braking. I don't remember that it did with the G25, or not as strong.
This is the only car in the game that I have this problem with my settings, and the steering wheel force is not set very hard.
Do you have a solution?
Thanks

Hello people,

Long shot I know, I've lost a link to a website about setting up a Logitech G27, buy a guy who was either Swiss or Norwegian.

It had a nice Pictorial example so was really easy to follow, and had the g27 really dialled in.

My lad has the sim bug, and I want to set him up with lfs, and I dare not leave him alone with the simucube.

Hopefull

Jason

Quote from htunsal :

Maybe bug report:

I am driving with Logitech G29+Shifter. Normally it manages the steering lock for each car and blocks the wheel at maximum angle LFS gives. But now it does not limit the wheel, after full steering wheel continues to turn but in LFS its at max angle. Like I mean steering lock is 540 degrees. In LFS at 540 it stops to turn but G29 it doesn't block and you can turn the wheel to 900 degrees.

I could not reproduce this with my G27. The steering limit is still enforced by LFS.

Are you getting force feedback from driving?

The one thing I did notice is that the limit is not enforced in Controls Options, because there is no force feedback in that screen.

More gradual progress to report. I don't think this is very interesting reading to most people but at least it shows the sort of thing I have to look into each day.

Attached an image of the updated timeline graph. It has some new colours. The reddish brown colour on the graphics thread is while it has called D3D 'Present' to apply the fully rendered image to the screen. It seems to take a long time to do that each frame because it is with Vertical Sync enabled, so it has to wait for the screen refresh (avoids tearing, and there is no point in having a higher frame rate than the monitor's refresh rate). But even during that time, the graphics card may still be rendering. The end of the blue part is only where LFS has finished sending draw instructions. The nice thing is that, with multithreading, that wait is no problem now, the physics updates keep going on as you can see.

Some gaps in the game/physics thread I believe are because my computer is so old it only has two cores (although it is a good, smooth running PC). I guess the operating system or another program wants to do something, so Windows gives a time slice to that other process instead of continuing with the LFS physics. I believe this might not happen much on a quad core.

Another thing is the audio code (yellow). Although better timed now, seems to take some time and bunch the physics updates. But this is the debug version of the code, it's a lot slower than the release build. So it might not be a problem at all.

Here's the diary of updates for any who are interested.

30 Sept
Graphical timeline showing what happens on the two threads over one second
- displays concurrency and shows where one thread can hold up the other
- reveals processing time differences between physics updates
- shows the bunching of physics updates by audio updates
- suggests better timing of audio updates

1 Oct
Timing investigation guided by the new graphical timeline
Improved accuracy of the system timer using undocumented ntdll functions
Improved the timeline a bit by adding new elements and adjusting exiting ones
Adjusted the timing of audio updates to avoid interference with the sync point

2 Oct
Adjusted game code to allow interruption of bunched physics updates for a sync point
Noticed that downloaded mods and skins are not reloaded in the best place (noted)
Made wait for sync point *always* interrupt overloaded physics (avoids visual hangs)
Noticed that game reset while physics objects moving calls D3D code 'illegally' (noted)

3 Oct
Investigating a known fault related to timer resetting when no guests are connected
Noticed some sync check values had not been updated for the 1000Hz physics update
Made some general improvements, simplified the timer reset code and fixed the bug
Moved reload of downloaded mods and cars with updated skins to the sync point
Fixed an already noted issue with auto restart on exiting the pits in hotlap mode

4 Oct
Spent some time looking at ways to delay the loading of textures when loading a car
- it would be better not do so any D3D work while loading a car but it's complicated
- some of the physics code (aero positions) depends on the 3D model being built
- possible solution is for the model to be built by game code but delay texture loading
Put that on the back burner for a while and looked at VR in the multithreading system
- found some issues including time appearing to slow down
- realised this is due to an oversight in the changes made on 2 August
- corrected that, continued VR testing, fixed a couple of bugs
Continued VR testing, looking at timing graph, experimenting

5 Oct
Another VR day, did research, testing, tried a different approach from yesterday
Ended up with good smooth results on tracks where my computer is fast enough
Did a substantial test on VR and FF wheel, driving at Bancroft and Fairfield
Force feedback can also be output at 1000 Hz with the physics updates
Seemed to feel higher resolution on the G27, I guess it could be good on DD wheel
Read through lists of things to do, would like to get a few crossed off tomorrow

Last edited by Scawen, Thu 6 Oct 2022, 07:24. Reason : not August... it's October - thanks Yisc[NL]

Have talked to NipeFive before make this mod, also in collaboration with him, i'm adjusting to mainly drift on mouse (sorry g27 bois)

no need for g27 anymore

There's something with the physics that makes me feel more connected to the road. It may be because LFS is the game I played the most when I got my G27, so it has always been the "gold standard" for me. Or it may be because the LFS physics are just best overall. But when I play LFS, I can feel the road much better than I can on any other racing game. Even though I haven't played LFS for many years now, as soon as I fired it up I felt the LFS physics in my hands as it was yesterday.

This is probably because LFS is quite a few years old, but it's less resource demanding than a lot of other games. I don't have my PC fans spinning up like crazy when I load in the game, and it's nice for once to hear the engine sound over the PC fans. I can run this game on my Macbook Air from 2014.

I like that the engine noise is generated in real-time based on throttle and engine load, exhaust system etc.
Play any other game where the noises sounds are recorded, for example NFS Shift, and hear the engine noises overlapping as the RPM increases, which sounds horrible. Another example is The Long Drive. Listen to the engine when it's idling, and you'll quickly get annoyed by the same 1 second recording looping again and again.
LFS doesn't have this annoyance when every cylinder firing sounds slightly unique.

This is not unique to LFS, I know other games has that too. But it's definitely worth mentioning. Using dedicated servers, rather than this P2P crap that a lot of other games are using. A server system is more cheat resistant, so we don't have the problem where anyone who joins the server can just explode everyone or put everyone in cages. Everyone who have played GTA Online on PC will understand.

And being able to create your own car skin, and have everyone else see it on your car, that's something I haven't seen in other games!

Quote from Ales_M :

Thank you. Did some laps yesterday on my new whell and i loved it , way better then g25 i had back in the days..

What wheel do you use now ?

I used to have the G25, but now use a G27 but i am looking to get something a little better though, something with direct drive Force feedback

With FBM on blackwood i used a gamepad for around 6 years and managed to get into mid 1.12s, when i changed to using a g27 wheel i ended up getting into 1.11's, but found that i had to use very little FFB.

Hello!

Been enjoying the latest updates a lot! Great to see this sim coming back to life (still the best out there )

One thing i would like to see improved is the way the game handles ffb on DD wheels specifically. Let me explain the issue. Me and most of my friends drive on a Simucube Pro with around 25Nm of maximum torque. Without the ffb clipping out of bounds, the range we can use in terms of ffb force in game is 1-15% (15 being very stiff, like running 80%-100% on other sims). Lowering the force within the profiler is of course an option but then you lose detail as it clips even during normal driving. I don't know if this is caused by something deep inside the physics engine or something that can be fixed by changing some parameters. It would be a big help already if decimals were added to the force factor.

But apart from the range being very tight and the number of steps of adjustment being pretty much 15, the peaks of forces are also super high. Even when we run what we consider low constant force, hitting a wall or a big bump is borderline dangerous for our wrists.

The last time the physics were updated, the strongest wheel on the market was a G27, so this is completely understandable. But i want to let you know that it is an issue.

If i can provide any kind of telemetry data or feedback, let me know!