Excellent work as always!
We'll be enjoing this for a good time!

Quote from wolfshark :

So, to sum it up - i want to try the new physics and delete the game.

You do that. Does seam like a waste of time for both you and us at LFS reading your pointless words, doesn't it?

Great news getting that fixed for the better.
Looking forward to the test-patch! Keep up the good work

That's the spirit

Quote from Khann :

Are you suggesting he code an entire sim? He was suggesting that, should the developers announce they are no longer working on the game, he hopes tools be released to allow people to mod the game, or you know, make use of the class-leading physics engine that you are suggesting he make on his own.

Yes, I suggested people to make an entire sim. If Scavier decides to abandon LFS I could see the use of releasing an SDK or whatever people could use to improve (or hack to pieces) what LFS stands for today. I'm afraid though, that this would be the day LFS "dies". But I hope, if that happens, everything will prove me wrong. If it is an easy and smooth process to provide the physics engine along with some user-friendly tools for tracks and cars building, hey, I'll be surprised if I would not take back what I've just written .

Quote from s911 :

...P.S regarding the source code and SDK if there are patents involved with their physics engine then it will probably will never see public domain...

First I apologize if I sounded a bit harsh on you s911, but I read your post as actually "demanding" a company to give you information on how they make their product! It is not going to happen if they do not see it beneficial. I mixed your post into several others that demands this and that because they think they have the right to it. You paid for what Scavier put into the game at the time you bought it. As a bonus you get any patches that "might" be released (afterwards) to improve gameplay. If the game is broken and does not work, you have a "right" to file a complaint to get your money back. That's it. Anything above that is just asking for favors.

On the other hand, I agree with you that it could be a good idea to release an SDK if Scawen decides to move away from LFS. If there even is such a thing as an SDK for LFS? I suspekt, with such a small dev team and its "long" history, it's all in their heads, sort of. And you are right: if patents apply, you will have to play by those rules. Even if the code is not patented (I haven't checked), it's still Scavens (first ) "baby" and if I were in his shoes I'd consider more than twice before I just gave it away...

Quote from s911 :

P.S.S before accusing people of demanding things, think about what they are asking. And very carefully make assumptions about what they want. Its quiet obvious you have no clue what goes into making a game, or a program...its not a simple process, hence why there are developer studies that work on developing only game engines, and then other studios take that engine and build a game powered by it...

I perhaps made a mistake on what you specifically demanded, sorry. Again, my point is that the tools you need are still in front of your eyes. What you are asking for is a shortcut. Yes, it could be reasonable to "ask" for tips and tricks in such that the wheel does not need a reinvention. This happens within research fields, but unfortunately not very often when it comes to business (hence patents). I could be wrong, but I believe LFS came alive through its own tools, hence Scavier wrote them as he went along to accomplish a full game title. LFS seems very "tailor-made" to me. What "game-engine" do you suggest Scaven has used? There may be "helpers" available today that facilitate the development further, but if I am not entirely mistaken, LFS is not an ordinary gameproduct of todays game-studio standards.

On the contrary, I am in fact a programmer, although not in the game-industry. That is why I said that all you need is available, the only thing hindering you is your current knowledgebase. It can be expanded since we (at least I) live in a world of flowing information and knowledge readily available (books, university, passion...). So do not make assumptions as you so rightfully suggested .

Just to round off on the right-foot here: I, like everybody else around here, wish to see further development of an already extraordinary product. Of course! I just do not see it can be accomplished by the LFS customers, even if there's a lot of talent around. At least not at the moment since focus is on tyre physics. Let it be that tracks and cars can be modded in the future with a careful and well thought through methodology. I'd probably not say no to that!

Last edited by Ingolf, Fri 10 Aug 2012, 12:22.

Quote :

I just hope that if developers stop working they release SDK tools they use to develop for the game, so others can improve up on it. I never was able to find a game as enjoyable to race in as LFS.

It's good you enjoy LFS as much as many else here. In fact I see your attitude as a very positive one .

The SDK you are requesting is just in front of your eyes. Programming tools and 3D shape tools are just... here! Just start programming!!

I can not understand why you ask for this community to provide the tools when with some skill you CAN complete it yourself. Do we have to hand everything over on a plate these days? Did your granddad ask someone else to save the world from tyrrany? Jeeez.... Sorry to be such an ass... but think about it.. what can you contribute with, except demanding this and that... when today it's a free world and you can accomplish almost anything. Just look at what Scawier did!

No offence, just getting tired of ppl thinking they have the right to demand entertainment without lifting a fiinger...
(don't take it personally s911, just a general statement from me)

Last edited by Ingolf, Thu 9 Aug 2012, 00:36.

Well, LFS is in my opinion so close to real racing that it simply does not die. Everytime you set off on a LFS session it comes close to real life driving. If you feel it is "dying" then perhaps racing is not for you (you may not even have a racing license irl to compare with). Simply because you are dying as virtual race driver. LFS is not dying, and never will, but you are. It is not your cup of tea, but it is hard to admit?

Many things can be improved in the future LFS but many of the latest complaints suggests racing is out of your scope. Racing can be boring. Racing can be tedious and that is exactly what LFS do so well. Representing tedious work and a feel of irl driving. So, for every grafix-hunters out there, racing is not that shimmering as you might think. It's about driving a car faster that the other fellow.

LFS also reflects a big age-range with younger drivers (naturally) coming in during the last couple of years. Hence, there's a discrepancy of what we think LFS should look and behave like in a near future. Many of the vets accept and prefer a quality development pace while ppl joining after 2008:ish lack in patience and understanding for the current development pace. The simplest advice to give is naturally to propose YOU make a new game better than LFS! And you can, if you are skilled enough, otherwhise, do not make words of unfounded complaints or you look like a fool.

Last edited by Ingolf, Fri 10 Aug 2012, 12:52.

Quote from Bose :

Since when can't you criticize other products if you don't have a similar product? Where is the logic in that?

I think I did not get my point across clearly enough. Let's try again: When you (A) ask someone (B) to do a favor for you:
A: - Develop this please!
B: - I'll do it but I'll have to do it my way.
you are not in the position to either complain or demand anything, are you?
The point is; you may end up having to do the whole thing by yourself instead of living off somebody elses skills. I do not doubt any of you lads' abilities in C++ (or any other languages for that sake) but hey there you go. It's a free world, it is only your time, energy and competence that keep you from doing it, right! So please stop yelling at dad to build a penthouse on your already awesome treehouse (that he built for you). You're big enough to do it yourself now?
I'm not here to make a stir or upset people. On the contrary, making friends and good times is far better. Especially if it leads to good races in LFS. And it usually do.

On a sidenote: Naturally you can and may criticize a product. Positive or negative criticism - your choice. Negative words will probably stop others from buying, positive will boost the revenue. For any developer and its users, the latter is usually more beneficial. Unless the product is broken and should be rightfully taken off the market, negative feedback will only do damage. My personal opinion is that LFS is not broken, deserves positive/constructive criticism that could lead to more revenue and hence help the dev team with further challenges.

Quote from Racer Y :

I think I need to post in the off-topic forums about what I've been forced to learn about tire physics in the last couple a weeks.

Please do

Last edited by Ingolf, Sat 28 Jul 2012, 07:51.

Just to make another pointless statment in a pointless thread:
1) LFS is fun, always have been, always will be
2) Development rate is as should be
3) You may (for some reason) think differently
4) If you disagree with 1 & 2, make your own game and tell me about it.
Have a good summer, it's faboulous around here!

Quote :

Not even sure if to be taken serious. You do understand that it's just a simple application with not much of a meaning?

@Bose, good on ya! Nice twitter, blogs, forums and webpages.

• Web design.
  
• Web development.
  
• Search Engine Optimization.
  

I like the Fanatec Wheel application. Keep it up!

@Bose: OK, that sounds fantastic. Could you please point me in the right direction where you have entertained thousands of people with your accomplishments. I must have totally missed it! Game name? Website? I am not so up-to-date nowadays so I would be delighted if there's some car racing development going on that I've missed. No offence mate, development is what we all want, and I apologize for having totally missed what you have going .

@Audi TT: Nice event! Hope your kid enjoyed it as much as yourself

Quote from Bose :

FOX with a G25? That must be god awful, just like the progression of LFS.

Why this? Jealous? Bitter? What progress have you made to improve the spare-time fun of 50000 people?

Quote :

this text is about players leaving.

So why do you post in the wrong thread then...?

All the wining is just an expression of how much everybody cares about this title, or? It would be much more beneficial for all of us, gamers and developers, if it could be expressed in positive ways instead. Inspiration dwells on positive feedback, so yes, I really would like to see an end to all the "complaints-leading-nowhere". However, I do not want to see an end to complaints leading to improvements (and I'm sure OP agrees here ).
Why not, if you have to complain, attach a positive, constructive and inspiring comment just before you hit the submit button. Perhaps that little, but yet significant, attitude-twist could change the world?

If LFS came out today we would cheer in joy and wonder, stand amazed by the attention to detail, feel and physics and regard it as a groundbreaking game. Some would say the graphics is not really that impressive or up to date, but who cares as the feeling and gameplay is fantastic. It just happens Scavier, being a pioneering team, developed this back in 2000, and here we are complaining about something we have. Something that is in fact great! Why?
The sharp edges of a once brilliant piece wears down over time as we play, and humans as we are, we're always thirsty for more and forget that the only thing that has changed is yourself. The game still delivers the same brilliant experience. But we dont see it anymore, because we're "used to it". Greedy and impatient, we demand more!

For whatever you are wishing for in LFS, there's nothing stopping you to make a sim with "all that" yourself. There's plenty of information around, university courses, good people, good literature (and you can read!), experts of all kinds that you can colaborate with, so I really cant see the purpose of all the unfounded complaints.

Imagine yourself in a developers shoes if all you get is shouts and complaints. Now, imagine if you instead had a massive positive support and ideas coming in on a forum. In which case would you feel more inspired to deliver the next patch?

Has no purpose or meaning: Close it.

LFS is only "dead" to you, and you alone, when you stop playing. For those of us that play the game it is very much alive, and will be as long as we play. No difference now, same fun as 8 years ago. A software that works don't die, only your own interest.

Physics & all the ppl I still do not know but know I will meet online...

Quote from Slartibartfast :

Also, for whatever reason, it is a lot easier to race in LFS. We can really get in close and dice. I just know where all the other cars are. In iRacing I always have doubt whether my fellow drivers and I will get away with being anywhere near each other. In this sim you really know where you are on the track. I feel I can drive inch perfect here. Or... at least know which inch I am driving on. In iRacing it's more like "2 foot perfect".

This is precisely why LFS is so convincing and fun. It provides more control to the gamer than any other game I know - allowing for those close intense, but clean moments. The post being old and all, I still think this underlines the essence and core of what LFS delivers. My hopes are that with any further physics development, this existing capacity will be even more refined to improve the combat part as well as the strategic and tactical elements of the game.

Personally I am grateful that LFS has stayed out of modding. In a way it forces everybody to drive under the same conditions (like you mention chupa). It could be seen as a good way of assuring fair conditions for competitions. Also you stay a long time with the same vehicle and actually gets to know it, how to set it up and exploit its strong and weak points. (And just that becomes fun in the long run). With a large mod selection it is "easy"/tempting to jump from a car to another without developing skills for any of them.

However I also see the other side of the coin. With modding allowed, we'd have seen some excellent vehicles and probably 1000s of bad ones. The ratio does not really matter since the good ones would survive and make it into servers and leagues. Filtered by the racers so to say. I guess RBR is a good example where modding has actually ensured the games survival.

If I were a developer of a racing game I'd certainly think twice before deciding on this issue. I would probably do as Scavier though, allowing the team to focus on physics and features rather than providing tools/support/updates/fixes and what not would come from letting loose the art of modding .

The game still delivers an excellent challenge. Has never stopped doing so. I believe it's just a matter of finding the right group to race with.
Unless you already have, I suggest you get a G25/27/fanatec that could turn curent LFS into a great amusement park.

Good thing you took the time to sum them all up!
Actually my answer was given in hexadecimal

It is probably more yes, I just summed up the most popular tracks:
600000000 km / (2*384400) km =~ 800

Those (steam) statistics say zip about LFS and it's users since it's based on steam customers. LFS is not part of steam. Typical misuse of numbers.

Almost 800 times to the moon and back ! (all together that is)