The online racing simulator
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Macfox
S2 licensed
I guess I'd consider anyone from the RSC (2001? days) old school.
Still here... drop in once every few months... Haven't played seriously since the local leagues withered (2007-8) with the stagnation of content development.

It's nice to see this thread and a few original fans still lurking around, but they're a dying breed for sure.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from giannhsgr1 :one way to rebound lfs is to open the game for mods
i mean dont get me wrong the game is superb but after all this years the same cars and tracks are a bit boring

Extremely unlikely at this stage. They've said maybe after S3.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from col :If the Community it broken, then the work to fix it has to come from within the community. If you want it to improve, then work towards that goal. Complaining repeatedly just adds to the problem.

You make it sound so simple. Yet so wrong.

Such naive statements are an insult to the many player/event organisers/sponsors who have put a large amount of time and effort and money into the community. It's tough enough to see the current release policy essentially eroding that away to nothing, but some how spinning this into "it's a community" problem is just a bit much to swallow.

I love to heard ideas how interest in LFS can rebound with out the devs rethinking their approach. There's very little positive to talk about in the last 6 years.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from col :Not really. in fact is was just another weak straw man argument attempting to defend a popular but untenable point of view.

Compromises are necessary... obviously this is true, but irrelevant.
It doesn't support his argument or weaken mine - it's a red herring.
And discussion is clearly happening, so that jibe was also bogus.

Agree to disagree. As you point out, your view that everything is rosy and fine, is held by a diminishing few. I just can't ignore the facts. I've been around too long know how much better it was.

You can try and make various justifications for the current situation, but it's really irrelevant to the actual result we're experiencing now.

The fact that the active community is only a fraction of what is once was, is a pretty big sign that players have lost interest or moved to other games. The completion of S2 might bring some back, but if the continued policy of drip fed content continues, the momentum will be lost and I doubt the game will ever gain the popularity it once held. That will be a sad disappoint for Scawen's and the community to see LFS set a new benchmark, but not get the acknowledgement it deserves.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from cargame.nl :It's not particularly 'knowing better', it's just that unicorns do not exist. Tire physics in the end is just a part in the whole of car handling / characteristics and I think you cannot simulate it properly with basic hardware.

So you need to make compromises. Something which cannot be discussed, it seems.

A very good point.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Ingolf :
LFS would still be LFS, don't see where you're getting at here. Sure, the revenue has helped further development and the public love for the game keeps us all happy with unprecedented exitment. It's like saying a beautiful red apple is nothing without somebody of us eating it. If we choose not to eat it, it's still an apple . Somehow it sounds like you have got it all backwards. We have nothing to do with what LFS is! It has been programmed by 3 brilliant individuals, not us!

I guess by that logic they should just give it away for nothing.

Revenue is fundamental LFS and linked explicitly with the community. Concluding the devs could somehow work on this project for 12+ years without it, is quite frankly ridiculous.
Macfox
S2 licensed
It certainly is a difficult balancing act, but no one can complain about the quality of (TEST) releases given your QA record to date.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Scawen :I am going to stop short of explaining every detail of my personal and family life on a public forum.

Scawen, No one is with sense of decency is asking that. Players are just enthusiastic about your work. From many here it's like a drug and they crave more. Nice work on the patch.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from JazzOn :
PS.@ Macfox, it sure looks fantastic, but this also looks like it needs a lot of cpu power.

From what I can find it was run on a dual core and wasn't using any GPU assisted physics acceleration (PhysX). Not bad really. I think the plan is to make it HW independent.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
While on the topic of physics, these guys (another small team) have achieved some remarkable results using CryEngine as a gfx basis and their own physics middleware. Imagine both teams joining.

http://www.beamng.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JPDtDfxf6w
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from col :The reason seems clear to me.

Real cars at a real track in LFS will highlight any areas where the physics are not real enough. If times are way off real world times, then it's not good enough for release.
LFS is about simulation and realism. If you value content over realism, play something else. That goes for the guys who +1'd your post as well. You guys obviously don't get what LFS is about.

You're like a girl that goes out with a guy, then spends the whole time trying to change him into someone else

You'd have point if there were real cars. But there isn't. The fact is that you can indefinitely aspire to get a close to real as possible. Scawen could model the tire right down to the quantum level and times could we still way off, because at some point you have to make assumptions/simplify the model to fit within the processing power.

Given you've been around for some time, you too should well know LFS only models a fraction of physical world. There's a plethora of other physical world factors (car/world) that will influence lap times that aren't modelled. Sure friction is a critical component, but it has more to do with how the car behaves in a realistic fashion, rather than than lap times, which will work itself out as the LFS model get more detailed.

BTW Nice fail with the funny analogy. Perhaps draw on you early memories of LFS (rather than your past relationships) and it's quite obvious to see it's LFS that has largely changed, not the community.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Scawen :
As that is Windows, I guess the timeGetTime function is not returning incorrect values. So that suggests the LFS hosts are sometimes not being given CPU time for 6 or more seconds.

Quite possible if these are virtual environments rather than physical servers. Might be worth asking those that are reporting the issue if they are running in a shared or dedicated(physical) environment.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from col :I expect that they were obliged by some sort of contractual agreement to have a version ready for use at the circuit in exchange for the rights to use the track in the game.

If that was if fact the case, then I'm sure that reason would have come up sometime in the last few years. This debate over content release has been soooooo long running, it doesn't really lend itself to such a situation.

Zero reason, other than needing to wait for physics has been given. Then Scawen later stated, he's not holding back Eric from content releases.

Quote from col :
Anyway, fine details and technical subtleties aren't as important for a simulator at an event compared to a public LFS release where people can spend hundreds of hours honing lines and setups in their own homes. Weaknesses in the physics would not be so obvious.

The "Content Whiners" are asking for a track release, not real cars. What possible reason is there not to release the track, given the posted videos.

I would say there's much more to this than the community knows. Scawen hasn't really ever been completely frank with the community about LFS development especially around content. He has posted a lot of detail about his work, difficulties and motivational problems etc, but he's conveniently skips around about why the community has been starved of content.

It would be nice to hear from Eric, as this his domain, but he chooses to be a silent participant in these forums. As Scawen is closest with the community it would seems reasonable that he can explain why, in Eric's absence.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from cargame.nl :Although it's kind of odd that Scawen says he is not holding Eric back but Rockingham is clearly finished and doesn't get released...

One can only conclude that there needs to be some new content in reserve for the S3 milestone and maybe all that's new is Rockingham & the VW. Thus releasing it ahead of the S3, will leave S3 very lacklustre content wise.

Given there has been various rumours/leak/screenshots of pending track releases in the past, and there's been nothing more than Rockingham, it might well be the case.

If that is the case (and I hope not) then I would expect a major backlash from the content hungry contingent of the community. Given they've been screaming for something new to drive (even pay for), it will certainly be the final straw for many loyal/hopeful players.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from lfsrm :I think eric and Scawen do the work of 20 people

Don't forget Victor. That probably holds true for Scawen, but it's difficult to make that claim on the content side (Eric) post '07. There's little evidence and only pure speculation.

Quote from lfsrm :
If there is something going wrong, I think they may very well call the community for help.

That boat sailed long ago and the dev's have made it quite clear they don't want any help (other than bug testing) many times.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from farcar :
By saying this, you're asserting that Scawen is blatantly lying to us by saying that he is still developing the game, when really, he's really just maintaining it (presumably to squeeze out a few more license sales).

While it may be reasonable to view LFS as a failed project after such a long time without updates (though I don't necessarily hold this opinion), I totally disagree that Scawen is a sinister and deceitful character.

Sure it can be construed that way. I don't assume to make any judgements about the dev's character. Others can form their own judgements from their statements/posts. In general they come across sincere, genuine and professional to me (one less than the other two).

The devs perception of progress is miles apart from what the community has actually experienced. That widening gap between what they say and what has eventuated has disenfranchised the community with devastating results.

Back in 2002, if you said it would be over 10 years before S2 would be finished and 5+ years between major content updates, no one would have even took interest in the game and the devs would be laughed out of town.

The trouble I have isn't so much the progress (physics etc), it's that content has taken a back seat. The arguments of old, that content can't be released due to physics incompatibilities just gets harder to accept as time goes on. It's this very premise that they want us to accept, but it only serves to raise serious doubts and destroy trust.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Beaver08 :We've all been waiting but good things come to those who wait right?

“People count up the faults of those who keep them waiting”
Macfox
S2 licensed
No surprise really to see nothing has really changed, other than seeing more optimistic and loyal users of a few years ago, now seriously questioning LFS and it's future. Reading through a handful of threads, it's soooo frustrating to see Scawen respond within a few weeks of a hack with a significant netcode update, yet we can't get one single content update in 4+ years, let alone a tiny progress report. We see more dev interaction with nuisance hackers than the community as a whole.

Not much more can be said on the content front, that hasn't already, without provoking the wrath of Eric (been there).

It really is hard to comprehend the logic being applied. They're cutting off the nose to spite the face.

As a follower from the very early RSC day, it's been interesting to follow this indy development experiment. The dev's philosophy, motivations and engagement were refreshing and attracted many follows, but it's clear over the long term it hasn't been the success many hoped for. For whatever reasons (for lack of interest/motivation/time/money or technical difficulties) it would seem serious LFS development has been abandoned and now it's in a maintenance cycle.

Nothing it seems will divert this certain course. Not even years of community pleas and declining interest (and probably license revenue).

The devs clearly missed the boat. The once active and thriving racing community have left for greener pastures and LFS is unfortunately remembered for it's failure to evolve, rather than it's (earlier/promised) successes.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from mcintyrej :Hello friends,

I've been away from this forum for a long time and until I start playing LFS seriously again (not likely) I won't be coming back for good. However every now and then I pop on to see what's going on.

Every time I come on here, I notice one thing. You're all dicks!

This community seriously lacks in any sort of human compassion, any sort of friendly atmosphere - everyone is just trying to get one up over each other and wanting to start arguments so they can win.


It's changed because the bulk of the original inspirational members from early days (RSC) got jack of it all and left. No need to rehash it all, the reasons are blatantly obvious and documented to death. There's a few left (thank god) and they know who they are.

It's easy to share your sentiments, though it seems a bit unfair. I've seen much worse in the console scene.

Rob
Macfox
S2 licensed
Oooh... Don't go there. There's a perfect reason for that, only we don't know. It's all a part of the big plan. ;-)
Macfox
S2 licensed
LOL! Better than starting a new one. It maybe three years, but the question still remains open ended.

Odds are "when no one gives a sh!t."

The vast majority have given up playing the same old.... and are just waiting.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Not another one. LOL! What an outrage. :doh:

Seriously, I think your time is better spent improving the skin, than bothering about this.
Macfox
S2 licensed
If you don't have a wheel, you are limiting your potential. You won't get immediate results, but in the end with practice, you'll achieve better, finer control and lower your times.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from bunder9999 :I revised my comment with two from another thread, which still contains my final stance on the topic. Long story short, LFS's VWS and Rockingham have been displayed around the world in several instances while the gamers get the shaft. I hope they have some back-door arrangement where they're getting trucks of money.

Shafted isn't the right word. Disappointing is probably a better fit. The devs don't owe us anything but is in their interest to show us these things, if they want to sell more of their product. These actions seem to indicate that isn't a worry to them and perhaps they have other sources of making a living from LFS as implied by previous posts above. If they actually do, they certainly keep it close to their chest.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Great to see this preview of content. This is exactly the type of release LFS needs, but it needs to be on the front page. Not in some obscure thread here.
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