The online racing simulator
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Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from col :1. A business lasts or fails based on making or losing MONEY. The kind of dialogue folk here seem to expect from the devs is absent from the vast majority of successful businesses for good reasons.

Semantics. Ignoring customers = lost sales = no revenue. Those that have been around long enough know that customer engagement was regular and key to attracting the masses to the game early on.

Quote from col :2. There have been multiple explanations about the lack of updates. They all make sense. These reasons are hard to accept when you want new LFS stuff, but they are still valid reasons.

No one disagrees with the complex nature of the physics. However there has been NO explanation regarding the explicit point about the lack of track development, let alone before any physics update plans/announcements.

Quote from col : 3. Adding an extra developer is just as likely to slow things down or kill the project as to speed things up and make LFS better. Scawen wants to code alone, without Scawen, there is no LFS. Simples.

That argument might have held true in the past when regular updates were released, but development has effectively stalled (by Scawen own admission). By definition you can't kill something that is dead. It really pains me to see this argument peddled over and over, when clearly it can't get any worse, given there's no promises, dates or deadlines.

There has been calls for extra man power for years, way before this current crisis. Each time its been strongly rejected, sighting code complexity, lack of documentation and handover time. And to a point that's accepted by the community when it applies to the code base. Yet these arguments are hardly valid where tracks are concerned. 3 or 4 years have past without a single track addition.

Unfortunately it's poor management, planning and foresight, that's allowed the game community to reach a state where it's crying out for content (paid or free) and being ignored.

Quote from col :
IMO this thread is great. It just demonstrates how important LFS is to lots of people. I reckon that while it keeps going as it is the Devs aren't worried. If folks stopped bitching and moaning, maybe they would get scared and start changing their plans a bit?

cheers

Col

If you're the glass half full type of guy, maybe? Personally it's a travesty and disservice to a game and community. So much opportunity and potential has been wasted. It's reached a point where ideology, ego and contempt for community and customers is a complete joke.

This is just one of 100's of threads of discontent over the years. The Dev's assurance is surely misplaced if they get any comfort from such threads. They only represent human desire to see what was, has or could have been.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Ales_M :Stfu or just leave if you dont like it, you could notice by now the devs dont give a shit bout this stupid crying!!!
  1. They should give a shit. Any business that ignores it's customers isn't going to last.
  2. All the excuses about tyre physics etc, doesn't explain the lack of content updates. We haven't seen a new track in (3+?) years.
  3. Adding a developer or tyre simulation/physics expert might delay the rumoured release, but the longer term benefits would make it worth while.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Dac :JPeace - You remind me of the captain of the Titanic going down with the ship.

A better analogy would be the musicians playing as the ship is sinking.

"Situation normal, don't worry people, everything is alright!"
Macfox
S2 licensed
LFS isn't dead. But the community is. This thread is testament to the communities decline.

Mod developers have gone. Event organisers have lost interest. Most of the great racers have gone. It's all very sad. Those left hope it will rebound, but it's all in the developers hands. They need to spark interest again and build it up again. Key to this is changing the philosophy to Release Early, Release Often. This is how it was in the early days and what was responsible for LFS's rapid rise in popularity.
Macfox
S2 licensed
It would nice to see a paid content upgrade (tracks), rather than having to wait 1.5 years for physics updates that aren't dependant on new tracks being released.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Not really sure that interview adds any more detail to what Scawen has said in the past. ie. There's an update coming ... Real Soon Now®
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from So_VipeR_oS :Just one thing id like to ask, why hasnt this been closed..all i can see is moaning and bitching about this, Its going to be done when its done end of - so why the need to carry on moaning. Then when the time comes it can either A- Be reopened for news or B- A lesson to all in a few years how childish you all sound moaning.

C- Learn about irony. Moaning about moaning! illepall
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Scawen :
...

Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach. Actually we are working on LFS. I'm developing the physics, Victor is keep things running, Eric is working on things too. We've done a load of work that we want to release, partly for the excitement of it, but we also have mortgages and other bills to pay and the releases will increase sales, so financially it would also be a great idea to get it out there!

Nothing else I can do do really, I'm just trying to get my current LFS projects finished and released. Threats of people "leaving" LFS, predictions of impending doom and so on don't really make any difference. I'm not about to release unfinished stuff and I will still get plently of sleep and relaxation time, and look after the other things I need to look after and develop LFS physics in whatever time it takes. Then we'll get there in the end and we'll send a notification email when the patch is ready, so you can all have a go on an improved LFS with more content.

It's great to hear from Scawen and get an clear picture of the situation.

Reading between the lines, I get the impression you don't want to release any new intermediate content, for fear of reducing the significance of the next update. That's understandable.

What I don't understand is why this policy continues, with respect to history. Several good (road) tracks (within the existing model) could have emerged in this time. Why not release a paid content update, while dev continues on more diffcult updates.

This would satisfy your financial needs and the communities needs.
Macfox
S2 licensed
3 were from the original, so 3 tracks in 6-7 years. Surely not. It's been obvious for years, the community wanted more content. It's quite disappointing.

Scawen defends the development approach. No Boss, no deadlines, no community engagement, no pressure. It's done when it's done. That's well and good and I commend him and the others on going it alone, outside the normal game development channels. But there's a time fast approaching (probably now) where people are simply going to write LFS off move to bigger and better sims. How is the treasured development model going continue, without revenue, which is highly dependant on community interest.

One things for sure with business, stalled development = no/little sales = no/little income = less development resources = probably less content.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from jasonmatthews :
I have seen the demise of so many great teams in LFS over the last 2 years and rather than taking pleasure from that, with us being a competing team, I only feel worry for the future. Winning a league without Mercury etc is not the same...

We (SR) have spent so much time and energy playing LFS since it started, and it has taken us 7-8 years to get to the point when we can challenge for the top competitions, but I fear that the competition we strived to beat no longer exist.

Couldn't have said it better. So many teams and comps gone and along with good clean servers with dedicated admins.

Sure the update (if it eventuates) will result in increased numbers, but the good old days of well run leagues, will not return over night. It took years to build up to that level. 1 new car and 1 new track isn't going to be enough the generate interest needed to keep comps afloat.

What perplexes me the most is that in almost 4 years, we haven't seen a single new track. It understandable that it's difficult to add cars if the physics is changing, but AFAIK track development should be relatively independant. I'm yet to see a plausable reason why we haven't seen any. What's the deal? Why not keep the community afloat with a token release of track, rather than let it rott away?

At any rate, if they released track updates, ppl would pay for them, that's for sure.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from wien :
Or are you just bending facts the way you want to justify a good cry?

It's not my graph. It's from LFS world obviously. By your logic a great portion of the community would be turning over every couple of months.

Quote from Breizh :Didn't Scawen answer this question a while back, showing shallow but clearly positive trend in user numbers on the long term record?

Quote? Not just for me, but others too. I follow most of Scawen comments, but I don't recall reading something to that fact.

Quote from Greboth :As has been said many time; there lies, damn lies and statistics.

From my personal point of view though alot of the people I used to race against regularly just don't play lfs anymore. A few are interesting but there are a few who just don't care anymore. There are a fair few people like me who keep an eye on here but really don't play now. So drawing from this it would seem that it is new people palying. However a small sample doesn't prove the rule.

Regardless of the actual cause, a flat graph isn't positive. The community hasn't significantly grown over the last few years.

If I was to take a stab, it probably a lot of loyal dedicated players with a few new ones coming in for a few months, then not returning.

Quote from NunoMike :It's perfectly normal that people get sick of something after playing the same thing over and over again. It's perfectly normal and I aplaude the guys who are here since the start and still playing lfs today! I would probably have went to some other thing, not because it is bad but in search for new experiences and something different.

What I meant is that LFS is not a flop since there are still new people checking the demo and buying S2 after that. For me, a new-comer to S2 after some years of demo, LFS has a lot to explore and to learn about. I haven't drive for real all cars and there are still some tracks I haven't raced on... and then there is the reverse layout!

So, for me and others, there is plenty of stuff to check out and I believe it will take a lot to master all cars and all tracks, like some of you do nowadays.

In conclusion, you may say LFS already gave it all to you and there is nothing more to take from, but saying it is a flop is a pure lie without any valid argument to support it.

You're interpreting the original quote wrong. It was in the context of the next update. Yes the game has been a success in the past. However the question is, will this next update restore it's glory?

Quote from LiveForBoobs :@macfox

That graphic is a bit misleading because what that shows is something around the average between the peak and the lowest users online. For example on attch 1 you clearly see licensed racers go up to 900. When you condense it to show more and more days, the lower parts stay, while the peaks disappear, and thus seeming like the population is only around 400.

Most licensed racers are from europe, and the lower parts of the grapghics (morning playing) won't reveal as much the increase in new users.

Yes it's an average. So the couple of hours a day where it does peak, gets averaged out. The point of the graph was to show the overall flat trend rather than actual licensed racers, which at anyway you look at it 900 or 400 isn't great.

Quote from ColeusRattus :
On a sidenote: I don't think that any of the devs keep reading this topic anyway.

You'd be right, scawen unsubscribed from the thread. But that doesn't mean he's not reading, I'm pretty sure he read most things.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from e2mustang :we know what will hapen... scawen posts that good update,and thread gonna be 35 pages full with : omg best shit eva,u teh MAN thx etc etc... which is good and im looking forward to it. meanwhile ill have my scirocco in 3ds max

For sure that will probably happen at some stage, but more importantly, will it be enough to revive wider "long term" interest in the game.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from NunoMike :A huge disappointment...

A game that is played since 2003, with all the drawbacks a 3-person-development game has, having a peak of 782 drivers last night and almost 1000 racers online last sunday, and which every day S2 licenses are bought (two friends of mine bought it since friday), can it be mentioned as "a huge disappointment"???

I don't think so...

From a half glass full PoV... You've taken the best possible stats for a narrow (EU) timezone. The long term (wider) picture isn't as pretty.

Side note: Also if you look deeper, a big percentage are cruise and drift players. There's nothing wrong with that, but LFS is a primarily a racing game, not a drifter or cruise game and any measure or claim should account for this factor.

Licensed racers (600weeks)


If there were significant volumes of licenses being sold, the above graph would look much different. More than likely it's the same crowed playing the game over and over and they aren't generating any revenue for the devs.

They'd need to sell 100's a month to maintain a reasonable income and cover expenses.

It does raise the question of how development can continue, with the revenue stream (appearing to be) drying up. Perhaps the devs have other revenue streams other than LFS. I hope so.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
I smellz a troll!
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from ATHome :Sorry, but some parts are far from perfect. Collision physics, damage system, turbo simulation, and some more aspects of the game.

And that aren't features to add in some time in the future, they are there, but they are half baked.

Sure they could do with a bit more polish, but when they were introduced (6 yrs ago) they were significantly more advanced than most games out then. Now they look a bit stale as the competition has caught up.

I'll be the first to admit, these tyre physics and a tickle of new content are going to have to be exceptional for LFS to keep it's reputation and place on the mantle.

In fact the whole situation is getting to be a bit of a joke really. I think the vast majority of ppl in the community only touch base to see who's going to be right. Is LFS going to revist it's glory or is it going to be the biggest disappointment in sim racing history.

Perhaps LFS is going the way of Commodore, who had a great product and all the opportunity, but failed to progress with the times, only to see it competitors trump them.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Funnybear :I've a feeling that this tyre update will be one of the last 'great' physics updates that Scawen will implement into LFS before having to build a completly new engine. Once he's got this out the way, coupled with the Rockingham and VWS release things will gallop forth with graphical improvements, interface, community ladders etc etc etc. I think, that this release contains a hell of a lot more than just 'improved tyre physics'. And like The Very End mentioned, we would probable get a whole lot more communication from the Devs if they didn't get flamed all the bloody time. I know I would stop talking if all I got was abuse from people not even having the decency to pay for the project. In fact I would be sorely tempted to stop working completly. What a completly ungrateful spoilt lot we are.

But, as and when this update is released, and I await it with anticipation, we will see a marked jump in updates, and information. We are going through the 'hunker down' period. What I think could be construed as the 'final' build without the final paintjob. I wouldn't be surprised that there are already complete audio and graphical updates just waiting in the wings ready for their moment.

Given the progress so far, it's unlikely. Sure dev speed was blistering at the start, but the code base was probably a lot simpler and smaller then. As the games has got more complex, development speed has slowed, almost stalled. Unless there's an increase in developer resources, it's only going to get slower. I really don't think there's any denying that fact.

The other important point is point is Scawen is a perfectionist. He hasn't released any half baked LFS code to date. To Scawen's credit, the development philosophy/regime has surely resulted in the quality we see now. The flip side is that there's now a "massive" anticipation and speculation of the pending release and I'm sure Scawen wants to prove (to the community) that his development regime works and is worth while, even if it means delay after delay.

I guess it's just a question of;

a) Will the coming update generate enough "real" long term interest to kick start the community?

b) How long the community interest will remain in the game without an update? Some will surely argue that time has passed.

Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from pearcy_2k7 :Slow development caused people to get bored, people getting bored causes this :P

Updates certainly = Interest. There's plenty of evidence to show that when an update is released, the number of active players sky-rockets.

With the pending physic update, the grinders, who endlessly pursue improving their time, are sitting "very" patiently to grab that carrot, before they start again.

The situation now is that the dev's certainly aren't going to release something that is half baked. The community wouldn't withstand the disappointment after such a long wait and it would effectively be the death of LFS. But many think an update is on the horizon (the carrot) and will get back into once it's out.

Had engagement with the community not been abandoned and it was know that the next update was 2 years away, the usual competitions/leagues and grinders, would still be battling it out IMO. It's effectively a stalemate.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Added grid reorder, hot lap valid.

Client IP was already in the list.
Macfox
S2 licensed
It's great we've finally got a progress report and some promising developments.

I guess now we just have to wait. Hopefully not too long. Another 9 months between announcements might just kill off too many fanboys.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Added: Ability to send setup from server to player (to help people not familiar with track they got on)
Macfox
S2 licensed
+ Knowledge base
+ Balanced moderating
- Fanboys
- Dev Participation
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Postman Pat :Great news! Next LFS update is an Aboriginal language pack.

LOL! Also includes a bush mechanic in the pits option.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from The Very End :It's not a question about LFS itself becomming dead, but how new people look on it
Even as there is many online, new players canot miss to see a month old news.. and they will think "is it stopped?" .. New players don't know what we do, they don't know the phylosophy (horrible wrong spelled) of the developers. They will only see the date, and maybe move alone. That's why this is so important! We need to catch their attention the second they enter the site. One of the first things they will ever do when going on that site is to see when it last was updated. That's at least what I do, and I know most of my buddies arel ike that too.

Maybe the developers should post that (phylosofy/phy?) on main page, so it does not confuse new people.

I have to agree. The current state of the website is doing a great disservice to the game and the community.

It sends the wrong message and for new comers it's easy to think, if they can't spare 5 minutes to update the frontage in 8 months, why would the game itself get any more attention. While that not the case, given the updates in the patch thread, new users aren't going trawl forums for such evidence.

Unfortunately this is a decisions the devs have made and it's unlikely to change until people start voting with $$$. It's obvious it's heading in this direction, with the plethora of post like these in recent times.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from george_tsiros :yeah

because aussies go and connect to euro servers :P that's why you see very few people racing on au servers

If it weren't for the timezone difference, it would certainly be the case.

Unfortunately LFS interest is seriously declining in AU. However when we see a release/update, it will bounce back. For how long will depend on the releases new features and content.

Unlike the EU, it's very rare to see a public AU server full that isn't running some event.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Can you expand on this, so other get a better idea of the improvement or issue it's solving?
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