The online racing simulator
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Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from word. :A test patch with a few minor bug fixes. Whoop de doo.

Below emphasis mine.

Quote from Scawen :NOTE : I cleaned up the spam. For anyone who wants to know what on earth I am doing fixing test patch bugs while we are waiting for the Scirocco, I have for some weeks been working on things which have a bearing on the Scirocco and LFS in general. I don't want to announce what I have been working on until the results are good enough that we know it will be released. I took a week out to fix some bugs of various importance, to keep the bug sheet down.

EDIT : Also moved the FPS v CPU discussion to its own off topic thread (as it is not related to the test patch). And I moved the plain "thanks" comments to to the "Posts moved here after processing" thread. In fact a plain "thanks" is nice but not all that helpful (too many "thanks" and "thumbs up" clutter up the thread). If you do want to say thanks, please try the patch first, maybe have a look at some of the fixes, then if the patch runs ok and the fixes worked, you could post a report here that you've tested and all is well - that is a more useful post.

So it's clearly not dead. Scawen is house cleaning (clearing up bugs) before releasing more features. Be nice to know a few details though. Even if it's a short paragraph on the LFS site.


Quote from Kid222 :As far as i agree with Scawen on holding up the information, this might be an interresting idea.

I hate twitter, but I'd settle for anything at this stage.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Too much expectation and criticism. Unprecedented unrest. Bridges are burnt. The days of regular news and community interaction are long gone.

The reality is that if there was going to be a change, it would have happened well before this fiasco spiralled out of control.

The VW situation is typical of LFS in the last couple of years and it's really tragic. Announced in August 08 and promised 5 months later. 7 months have past since that promise. A serious misjudgement that's fractured the community and poisoned it with scepticism.

The devs have cemented their decision not to change, regardless of criticism. What would be the point now? The bulk of the damage is done. The bored have left. The observers will wait. The few newcomers and diehards will make a decision at some point, which camp suit them. Hopefully enough will join the latter, to keep LFS afloat.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Dajmin :What would everyone do if we get all this bitching and then in 2 weeks we get a new message saying they've reworked the engine for Dx9 along with perfected collision detection and a complete damage model?

How do you know they're not going to? Surely the sign of someone actually doing work is the fact that they're not sitting around writing about it. Hell, I know I make more forum posts when I'm bored at work.

Patience is a virtue, grasshopper. Use it. Life is long, the wait is merely living it.

Flip side is that maybe they don't want to post status updates, because the "perceived" progress is very small and would cause outrage.

I think the chances of a significant update is unlikely. The declining speed of development, doesn't lend serious support for that theory.

If you look at the "where's the VWS" thread, there was a user who spent some time compiling several graphs , showing time between releases and there's a clear trend. http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... hp?p=1143940#post1143940
Macfox
S2 licensed
Updated.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from The Very End :I can understand the devs getting anoyed by us, hell maybe I deservere more warnings than I do, aswell as you others. But there clearly is wrong banning someone that long when he has not ruined / crashed or done seriously exploits to the game or others. (comparioson speedhack bans and what he got).

Even if they are anoyed they canot start letting their anoyance ressult in undeserved bans, or too harsh reactions. In fact, why have a forum at all? If there were just allowed to be fanboys that not question the game or the development, why have a forum at all?
The updates will not be needed to have a forum for that reason, since they come 3-4 times each year at most, so if this is the future trend they should just close down the whole forum and let the community have their own forums spread around.

Devs do it their way, that's ok, but don't let your feelings let it ressult in unfair things like this (even if it's their forum, their game and all that). Ban for months are ok, not years. In regard that Plosh, the one that wrecked the whole forum got a less ban

No doubt being a mod on these forums isn't an easy job and it's pretty thankless, but based on that, it appears to be too much emotion and not enough measure. And it certainly does send the wrong message and invite reprisal, creating more work for the mods.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from r8response :Don't know what comps you've been looking at, but Monday Night Racing is almost at the point of having to use 3 Servers

Yes that true. I just commissioned the third server last week. MNR is a well run event and is exception to the trend. However several other events/servers I provided hosting for have fallen by the wayside.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Zen321 :Could you develop the "defend their position" ? Does that refer to the forumer's position, or the dev's position.

Your quote is good, because I can say the total opposite if you meant : defend the devs' position :

"What's annoying is people trying to assert the development of LFS has stopped, and affirm the devs don't work anymore with no evidence and only disputable assumptions to backup their opinions."

If you meant the first sence (defend themselves), then I agree with you.

Nobody knows more than another. This is like a religion war. Both sides have an unverifiable and disputable answer to the same question "What is god ?", and they fight vehemently for that. So let's focus on being happy in the forums, together, we have no need to fight for that.

Or, we could launch a Star Wars Jedi Academy server, and have a "Light Side" (peaceful, patient dev supporters) vs "Dark Side" (angry moaners) team free-for-all, and I'm sure it'll let everyone let the steam off.


And my analogies make total sense.

The dev's position.

LFS progress hasn't stopped, but it's slowing. There's extreme points being put by both side and I agree they're certainly annoying.

However the dev's approach is their business and they don't need spokes people for them, adding there own spin on things, try to win the hearts of the dev's.

There's plenty here that are frustrated with the pace of development, should be able to share that with others of the same opinion, free from the spin doctors and dev defenders.

BTW... Your analogy stinks because it paints everyone with that adolescent brat stereo type used by fanboys (which you don't come across as).

Star Wars Jedi Academy sounds great, but what if we win? What are we fighting for?
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Zen321 : And remember when you were a child. Asking your dad 'Are we there yet?' did not make the car go faster

Worst analogy ever.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Zen321 :I really can understand why SamH is irritated. I didn't see the posts by AMB, but every other one I read is very annoying, simply because most of it has been said already.

What's annoying is people trying to speak for the dev's and defend their position with little to no evidence to backup there assertions. Probably this, possibly that. Jumping to conclusions, by string a few loose words together from posts.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from SamH :And exactly how many of these people are there, please? You talk like you know how many there are, so please share with the class. How many people are annoyed but never say anything to anyone, please?

No one knows for sure, but I guess LFSW stats could give some indication.

I only know from interest in events and comps in Aus. It's on the decline and has been for that way for 18 months atleast.

I still run a LAN party every few weeks, with about 90 regulars. The majority being LFS players in the past. Not one person has raised any interest in playing LFS, despite my attempts to change that. Most haven't played LFS in over a year and have lost interest in the game due to stagnation.

I appreciate your effort to put a positive spin on everything, I was in your camp a year ago, but I'm disenfranchised about the community and declining interest in the game. I put a lot of time and money (colo/LANs) into maintaining a community and the disconnection is doing a great disservice to LFS.

This is not really about the Scirocco.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from SamH :Tripe. This thread is big and it is here because we, the mods, have merged every non-abusive/not-ban-worthy VWS thread into one. We did that because the small minority of empty pots that are making the loudest noise also like to repeat themselves when they're bitching and moaning, over and over and over and over and over and... over as many different threads as possible.

Fortunately for the rest of the community - the vast majority of LFSers that aren't rattling their virtual sabres - the devs are continuing to do what the devs said they would continue to do; work on LFS. I very much doubt Scawen has spent more than a few minutes on the forum in the last couple of months. When he's deep in code, I know for a fact, he doesn't spend his days hanging out on the forums. He always works intensely on the code, massively focused, as a new patch is approaching.

The truth is that history has shown that when Scawen goes most quiet, good things are coming. Anyone who's been here for a few years, and who thinks about it for a moment, knows this to be the case.

It's not tripe Sam. It genuine sentiment (regardless if they are separate threads) and not everyone here's an empty pot.

I'm not sure what evidence you base this "quite = good" thing on, but looking back from the RSC days, the pace of development has slowed greatly, along with community participation and it's latently obvious. Those that can't see that, are either new to LFS or should take off the rose coloured glasses.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Matrixi :What I think a lot of people find frustrating, is the massive potential of what LFS has and that isn't being utilized while the competing sims are slowly starting to stomp over while LFS is sitting still spinning its thumbs around.

Totally agree. Who wouldn't fork out additional cash for a significant update. It think 90% of the posters in this thread would.

Quote from chunkyracer :The people who run the events that you mentioned or the ones that put their time and money to run servers where you can race, are what´s really important in LFS, much more than any update or patch. And in my opinion, they are being left out just like everybody else. I used to feel that we were part of the project, that it was easy to talk with the devs, that we could somehow influence the future of LFS, that it was "my" game and not only the game developed by Scavier. I don´t feel that now, and I think that the devs should think a bit about this. If they really plan on keeping improving LFS, they cannot afford to loose contact with the users. Without the people that support LFS by giving their time and effort to provide ways for people to have fun racing in LFS, it is just another "car racing game"...

You're not alone. The old RSC days were the best. Scawen actually participated in discussions about the game and its development. Improvement/suggestions were discussed and other sites picked up on this and generated news and interest in LFS. IMO the last few years though have seen a gradual decline in engagement and it has hit those that you meantion above badly. But this sentiment is yet to register with the devs. Apparently everything is just "situation normal", according to below.

Quote from Scawen :If people could stop saying "Scawen is alive!" and "Eric is alive!" as if that is surprising in some way, it would be helpful.

We are just working on LFS as we always have, no change at all.

As usual we are working on some things you know about and some things you don't know about. There is too much discussion on this forum about what is happening with LFS, where are the devs etc...

The answer is just too simple, we are working on LFS, as we have done for many years and continue to do. There is no reason to think anything different, it is just pure fantasy created in the minds of a few noisy forum users, for no reason other than they can't think of anything else to do while they wait for an update in their favourite simulator.

Sure there's those "noisy forum users", but there also those who support LFS by hosting servers, running events and building up communities and interest, only see it erode, as the game stagnates.

Scawen and Co have their development philosophy and many times they've said that is what's important to them. But it's not sustainable if development and engagement continue to decline. By the time S3 comes out, LFS will have many new competitors.

In many way LFS is going the way of the Commodore Amiga. Cornered the market and had so much potential, but sat still for too long.


I guess while this thread remains open it offers some hope, as it speaks loudly to the devs. The fact it dwarfs other threads in hits and posts, does say something about the community unrest with LFS development.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from Matrixi :What I think a lot of people find frustrating, is the massive potential of what LFS has and that isn't being utilized while the competing sims are slowly starting to stomp over while LFS is sitting still spinning its thumbs around.

Totally agree. Who wouldn't fork out additional cash for a significant update. It think 90% of the posters in this thread would.

Quote from chunkyracer :The people who run the events that you mentioned or the ones that put their time and money to run servers where you can race, are what´s really important in LFS, much more than any update or patch. And in my opinion, they are being left out just like everybody else. I used to feel that we were part of the project, that it was easy to talk with the devs, that we could somehow influence the future of LFS, that it was "my" game and not only the game developed by Scavier. I don´t feel that now, and I think that the devs should think a bit about this. If they really plan on keeping improving LFS, they cannot afford to loose contact with the users. Without the people that support LFS by giving their time and effort to provide ways for people to have fun racing in LFS, it is just another "car racing game"...

You're not alone. The old RSC days were the best. Scawen actually participated in discussions about the game and its development. Improvement/suggestions were discussed and other sites picked up on this and generated news and interest in LFS. IMO the last few years though have seen a gradual decline in engagement and it has hit those that you meantion above badly. But this sentiment is yet to register with the devs. Apparently everything is just "situation normal", according to below.

Quote from Scawen :If people could stop saying "Scawen is alive!" and "Eric is alive!" as if that is surprising in some way, it would be helpful.

We are just working on LFS as we always have, no change at all.

As usual we are working on some things you know about and some things you don't know about. There is too much discussion on this forum about what is happening with LFS, where are the devs etc...

The answer is just too simple, we are working on LFS, as we have done for many years and continue to do. There is no reason to think anything different, it is just pure fantasy created in the minds of a few noisy forum users, for no reason other than they can't think of anything else to do while they wait for an update in their favourite simulator.

Sure there's those "noisy forum users", but there also those who support LFS by hosting servers, running events and building up communities and interest, only see it erode, as the game stagnates.

Scawen and Co have their development philosophy and many times they've said that is what's important to them. But it's not sustainable if development and engagement continue to decline. By the time S3 comes out, LFS will have many new competitors.

In many way LFS is going the way of the Commodore Amiga. Cornered the market and had so much potential, but sat still for too long.


I guess while this thread remains open it offers some hope, as it speaks loudly to the devs. The fact it dwarfs other threads in hits and posts, does say something about the community unrest with LFS development.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from danowat :It won't make any difference, the cycle will continue ad naseum, it goes like this.....

New content > Cheers of elation > Devs doted on like supreme beings > quiet on the forum > few months pass, few mutterings of "not enough progression" > few more months pass, forum becomes awash with people complaining about progression > new content > Cheers of elation > Devs doted on like supreme beings once more etc etc

Its been in the same for years, I just wish people would realise it will NEVER change.

A few months is a gross understatement. When was S2 released?
Macfox
S2 licensed
That was abandoned some time ago. Likely little chance of it emerging now. Hoping the same won't happen with the Scirocco.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from danowat :I seriously don't think people are THAT excited about the Scirocco per say, however, I do believe that people are clamouring for ANYTHING fresh and new to breath life into what has become, for me, a stagnant piece of software.

FTR, I haven't played LFS for months, and have no desire too.....

Basically that's the sentiment of this whole thread. People love the game and want to see more, but outside the EU the game has lost interest. It's really hard to attract new players to the game when it hasn't seen a major release in years.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from The Very End :In my opinion (and Scawen's opinion as he stated) it's better to do something else while waiting, instead of asking for Scirocco every 10th minute.

Like waiting for Duke Nukem forever?
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from eRaptor :huh?

I fail to see where this enthusiasm comes from...

I wont whine for lack of content (despite I think we could have a few more tracks and even some other car classes)
But I can't share of that enthusiasm, as I don't see a reason for it!

Let's be reallistic about it, shall we?

And again, I just cannot understand the "Knights of the Round Table" allways coming forward for the honor of the devs, like:

- "Be gratefull for what you have..."
- "It will be done when it does..."
- "Raise your hands to God, and thank him for all the content you have on this marvelous simulator..."

We don't have to be thankfull for nothing! All of us are here, and play LFS because we have paid for a license, and we like it, or we wouldn't be playing it!

Theres no need to become defending the "honor" of the devs... I believe they do it themselves!

I'm of course an LFS fan myself, I have other simulator too, and I believe (and that will allways be a personal oppinion) that LFS is the overal best simulator, but I'm realistic and can't be so much unthusiast right now...

(just for the record it's 3:00 AM and I'm tired, so pardon me for my grammar... :shy

Can't agree more. Must be a slow news day.

It seems every time you visit the forum it's full of these "I like red cars", "What do you do on straights?" type threads. Must be everyone waiting for the VW to arrive. Where are the real discussions of 2003-2005?
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from S14 DRIFT :I understand what you mean, but if the days say: "we are working on night weather" and at the next patch, night weather isn't included people will be like "zomg lfs devs u sux" if you see what I mean..

There will always be those types I guess. But progress reports would keep the community interested and engaged, between test patch cycles and major releases.

I believe the bulk of the community can accept the pace of development, but if your on that slow boat, it's good to know it's heading to China, not just drifting aimlessly in the seas currents.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from S14 DRIFT :
The Dev's have said that they don't do progress reports because people would get angry if something didn't happen, and they've been proven correct.

Progress reports != Milestone dates.

There's a difference between promising a milestone date and noting what HAS been done or being worked on.

The latter is what many are interested in. Much like the test patch threads but with a wider audience.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Unless the release contains some major improvements, I think many of the concerns expressed in this thread remain valid. So farcar maybe off the hook yet.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote :Server list filter. (Track/Layout/Lap) and Favourite filter.

Updated
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote :stagnate Verb
[-nating, -nated] to become inactive or unchanging

It would be interesting to see how some conclude development is progressing. Gut feelings aside, some evidence would be nice.

People... It's a poll and some are stating their opinion. Telling people that they are wrong or flawed in their assessment/judgement is a fruitless effort.
Last edited by Macfox, .
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from boosterfire :Well, ask yourself this. What would you prefer...

Why hypothesise? Development has stagnated, your not getting 1 or 2 ATM.
Macfox
S2 licensed
Quote from boosterfire :Let's imagine that Scavier release nothing but new cars and tracks until 2010: after a while, people would just get sick of it and quit.

Or just let the community and interest in the game dwindle into oblivion?
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