I don’t like the idea of ignoring people whatever they have to say.
If it’s something against the forum rules I prefer for the unwanted posts just to be deleted so no one can see them… It doesn’t make me feel better if I am the only one who doesn’t see them.

I didn’t want to respond to this thread because I thought it would be as easy as the explanation it needs.
I won’t even bother looking at CRTA rules. This is general rules and it applies to everything that includes driving. No matter the sim or the situation, virtual or real life.

http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Clean_Racers_Club_Rules
Recovering from an incident
RI-1: The onus is entirely on the driver recovering from any incident that leaves them in any way an obstacle or a hazard to other drivers, to take all necessary care, hazard minimization, and responsibility not to interfere with any cars still on the track and not part of the incident. If you are off the track then the rules on “returning to the track after an off” apply.

RI-2: If you’re on the track after an incident and still in an incident recovery mode then you have no rights what-so-ever. You must give way to all non-incident-affected cars until you are fully recovered. An relevant incident may include, but not limited to, being - Spun out, facing the wrong way, perpendicular to the track, going abnormally slow for where you are on the track, etc...

Re-entering to the track after running off
RT-5: Do not reverse back onto the track unless it is absolutely unavoidable to do so. You are responsible not to cause an incident if you reverse backwards onto the track. This manoeuvre, if carried out, must be undertaken with great care and penitence.

Now forgive me but I don’t buy this psychometric test stuff you tried to turn the thread to. Not only because of the OP itself but because you are unable to acknowledge your fault when this accident happened in the server.
This must be an ego thing… because I don’t see the reason of all that fuss you created. (And yeah don’t start about gang members in this forum that support each other… there is not even one forum member that would say something bad for you before this thread.)
It was just a mistake and you should leave it that way. You should have searched the rules and find out why you get all that angry reactions.
I have done similar track re entry mistakes in the past because of the “heat of racing” making me believe that I stay ages off track and I have to return asap and… OH there is a gap lets go… but no I didn’t have enough room and boom the accident happens.
Most of us have done similar mistakes at least once when started racing.
But guess what… feeling embarrassed and asking sorry is the right thing to do.

I find this “ahaaa I did this as a test to see how many forum members are looking for an opportunity to flame me” attitude kind immature and I am sorry for that Lynce. I used to respect you but now my respect is narrowed only for your movie making abilities.

Err this actually not so random or unknown. I can’t really imagine that if this kind of behavior was possible in real life physics, no one would have taken advantage of that.

A close friend of mine has a 93 suzuki swift GTI that is realy close engine-chassis whise to the XFG. But I still thing that I don't need to lock it's differential and remove its rear arb in order to see what happens according to LFS analogy :P not that he or any sane man would let me do such thing to his car...

Last edited by kaynd, Sun, 8 Feb 2009 03:07.

Well it’s not that hard to judge. I haven’t sheen not even one situation where you can get oversteer just by accelerating out of a corner on an FWD in real life. No matter the setup and no matter the diff. You may just get some nasty torque steer if you have silly high locking and/or outdated front suspension with unbalanced front corner weights but there is no way you will get that silly overseer while accelerating.

But again as I keep saying thread after thread.. Setup restrictions will not solve the physics flaws.

Last edited by kaynd, Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:34.

Last edited by kaynd, Fri, 6 Feb 2009 23:01.

I am allso not referring to soft more traction and hard less traction stuff when talking about fine tuning the arbs

It might be so noticeable because everything in the car from the suspension components to the car itself is rock solid, so if you reach a sweet spot on the total balance, even the slightest ARB stiffness change makes has a significant effect.

Great way to test it. High speed slaloms.
Try to keep a steady rhythm between direction changes and observe how fast the car reacts when it starts to steer and how fast it recovers before you steer to the other direction.

I hope this makes sense.

There is no thing like secret adjustment that gives you “free” speed ffs…
It’s all about handling and mainly feel. And it is not a secret… It’s all about fiddling with the relation in stiffness between springs and anti roll bars (combined with the appropriate damping) in order to have the desirable responses from the car.
But anyway this is widely known… many racers even change the arb stiffness as the fuel load decreases and the weight distribution of the car changes… so go figure…


The hole effect is almost indescribable so I won't even bother to try and explain it because most likely I am going to mess it up.. :P It's just the reason you may feel that by adjusting some (single digit) NM in ARBS , even if this doesn't change the overall stifness distribution that much, it effects greatly the feel of the car or the willingness to turn-in or correct a line.

Quote from Zen321 :

Very true, I can't do anything but agree.

@kaynd, Keeping traction on all tires is not what every racing engineer is looking for.
As far as I remember, former rally/asphalt rally driver Jean Ragnotti driving for Renault at that time was extensively using a turn-in technique in which the inside rear was sometimes 10cms off the ground. This is what made him famous, and yet he was really fast (not only chav driving )

You have said that by yourself but I will help you understand what you are saying...

The rear inside tire was lifting because of the realy realy hard rear suspention comparing to the front. In this way he was redeusing the rear end traction / increasing the front traction. Thus having better turn in.
In LFS FWD setups you will see exactly the oposite...

Quote from Zen321 :

Actually since a couple of weeks I have found out something with the ARBs that they don't tell you about in the LFS setup guide or Bob's Smith VHPA (that is a very good tool by the way). But I won't tell it to you, setuper's secret

O yeah you think that you are the only one who have found this “secret”
The only reason no one refers to this officially is because this effect is not even remotely accurate comparing to real world physics… /me-> exaggerating here
(ok this is not so bad, it is just way to profound in LFS)

Last edited by kaynd, Fri, 6 Feb 2009 18:04.

Quote from Forbin :

I saw and understood your argument and that is why I mentioned the difference in tire width between the front and rear. The suspension must also be adjusted to compensate for this inherent understeer bias.

On the other hand I didn't pay mutch attention to what you stated there so yeah you are right for that. But this still is not an excuse for the tire physics in general

Quote from Forbin :

I haven't seen this behavior change as a result of using a locked differential on the RWD cars, although I suppose it may be possible to set up a RWD car to act like a kart, lifting the inside rear. I haven't seen it in practice, though.

This will give some nasty initial oversteer when aplying throttle because the outside tire wants to propel the hole car. Not because it has less traction. In FWD it's ok but in RWD it's going to be tough to handle.
The oposite thought (softening) works realy whell cause of the resistance caused by the locked (or high locking) diff. And that's what masks the problem so In most Rwd cars the stifness changes, produce usualy the disirable result. (softer rear = more understeer)

Quote from Forbin :

Likewise, it's not like the cars with other drivetrain types don't have differentials.

they have but in 4wd you can do whatever you whant with torque distribution so the problem there is allso not so noticeable. (only if you experiment with a great variation on suspention stifness distribution between front and rear you will notice that something is going wrong)

And on the FWD it's... well ahh whatever... exactly the oposite.
I laugh my ass off every time I get that look when I say that someone needs a bit harder ARB at the back for less oversteer while appling the throttle.

This is not going to be solved by setup restrictions.
Server side setup “rules” appropriate for cup racing would be interesting… Just that.

Last edited by kaynd, Fri, 6 Feb 2009 16:28.

It's not the same in all cars. But it is still there. Also it's not that easy as stiffening the end you want for more grip. It needs the apropriate damping settings.

For the FZR I allready said that I am talking about stifness/mass relations and not absolute values... Of cource because its so rear heavy it needs so mutch harder suspention at the back than in the front.
As for other RWD's I allready said the main reason in most Rwd cars that suspention stifness seams to do the right thing is because of the differential.

In LX6 for example it's this is not so noticeable... but still after hours of testing I have found that appart from making it not so responsife... hardening the front/softening the rear gives almost no extra traction at the rear.
Also this depends on the camber settings. For some short tracks that have usualy left or right turs, where there is beneficial to have one side of the car with positive camber. The softer end indeed has more traction because the inside tire's camber angle is almost parallel with the outside tire's angle.

Quote from Forbin :

Yes, some of the FWD cars in LFS typically use sets that are rather stiff at the front, at least for hotlapping and short races. This is allows them to lift the inside front wheel and, with a bit of throttle, use the outside front to pull the front of the car around, helping the car turn. A kart uses much the same principle in the rear. Note that this is very, VERY hard on the front tires.

Yes yes I allso know that. Thats exactly what I am talking about. In a car (not a cart) only the outside tire sould not be able to produce as mutch grip as two more equaly loaded tires.
(On carts the tires have to cope with much less load comparing with cars, talking about contact patch/mass and there is nothing else than a locked diff at the rear so you really can’t do anything else to make it turn other than lift the inside rear wheel.)

have you ever tried to make an FWD setup In LFS using some oversteer in the springs for a change? eg stiffness distribution 40% front 60% rear... using the appropriate diff of course ...
I have tried realy hard to make a setup like that... I actualy made an FXO setup that had great turn in and mid corner speed... but it was rubish on conren exits. Yes according to LFS's tire physics its way better to use only one heavyly loaded wheel.

Of course it increases tire wear... and thank God at least this works normally..


Anyway I am not making that out of my head. I face it every time I have to make a new setup for my team.

Last edited by kaynd, Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:50. Reason : My English suck... unless I spend half an hour to correct the mistakes.. it's almost nonsense.

Quote from Jonesy_ :

I'm just wondering what is actually that wrong with the setups, that makes them so unrealistic as some ppl here say.

I'd like to see one of these unrealistic with physics flaws taken advantage from setups everyone seems to be on.

I mean, I'm not mechanic, and barely understand the basics of making a setup, so I'm just asking what is so wrong with the 'fast sets'?

Actually the whole setup philosophy in LFS is almost opposite to what is needed in real life.

In LFS it’s perfectly ok for a fast setup to load as match as possible the outside tire of the end you want more traction, not giving a damn about the inside tire.
IRL you want to keep the tires at the end you want more traction, as equally loaded as possible…

That’s why fast FZR setups are set up mostly with basic overseer from the suspension stiffness. I am not talking about obvious spring and ARB stiffness values but for relative stiffness/mass values.
And that’s why All FWD car setups are set always with a lot higher overall suspension stiffness at the front comparing to the back. Again talking about stiffness/mass relations and not actual numbers.
The only think that makes some times RWD cars more stable by softening the rear suspension, is the way power gets delivered... because that way some of the engine's power is transferred to the ground thought the inside tire by the diff and in that way you get some initial safe-understeer while increasing the throttle. Without that meaning that the back end has more traction than the front cause of the softer suspention, as it sould be.

But guess what… no setup resstriction is going to solve that problem... this is caused by inaccurate tire physics.
No matter the restrictions on available settings… the same “unrealistic” setups will continue to exist unless something is done to the tire physics.

Last edited by kaynd, Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:30. Reason : I have messed up the syntax on the last part.

Flexibility in setup options is one of the main things that got me into LFS. Removing them entirely from the sim is like taking half of the fun out for me.

Unrealistic setups are made due to current tire model flaws. I have already referred to this many times. FWD cars in LFS reeealy suck for this reason.

I also think that server side setup restriction is the way to go for all cars and classes.
As I have already said in another similar thread. Event organizers are the ones who restrict the amount of changes you can do to the car you are racing.

If this is your team, or the team leader-s handed to you the management of the team members and info displayed at LFSW, you should have a small edit link right next to the team name at the teams list in lfsw.
klick it and you will find out what you have to do.

Last edited by kaynd, Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:20.

Quote from Dragonmen :

looks like some people do not know when is the race finish in enduro racing?

Looks like people do mistakes and get confused when they do not read carefully messages that state.
"Stop at T1 when you finish" and "Don’t do any extra laps."
After that it takes just some team mates saying through the “team radio” that you have to stop etc etc…
All this combined with the fact that the cars that where in front of me stopped, made me want to stop and think about it. But I didn’t check the drivers list fast enough… 10second later I disappeared from the track and got the “did not finish” message.

Well it might sound funny but that doesn’t mean I don’t know when a racing event like that ends.

Thanks for the quick reply

Greek Virtual Racing team's skin for the test event.

No names on it yet. I hope this is not a problem for the test race.

Team Name: Greek Virtual Racing team
Car Number: 08
Drivers:
N.Koutoulas [Nick-k] GRC
K.Daskalopoulos [kaynd] GRC
G.Alamaras [CBR929] GRC
A.Perrs [Varwnos] GRC

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

Because the 6800GT is actually faster than the 8600GTs in some regards, or so I've heard.

Don't even think about it... the 8600GT is way faster than the 6800GT... in some cases a single 8600GT outperforms 2x6800GT in SLI

You can reduce mouse sensitivity from the control panel of your OS.