Keep in mind that you can't just loosen the coast factor by 50% and hope the setup still works. The rest of the setup has to be designed accordingly too. Here's one of my LX6 setups (pre X30, so it might need some gear ratio tweaking but the handling is still fine). I can do low 21s and high 20s on Blackwood with it... and it's not like I'm all that fast. I find it very enjoyable and easy to control.
I'll test some LX4 setups from before the patch too and upload those. Perhaps it would be nice if people who have put some decent low coast locking factor setups together post them here to show people who struggle just what must be done.
Edit: Niels, I can definitely feel a difference (and, qualitatively the correct one) while progressively increasing locking right up to 80%, and then a difference between that and a locked diff. I can't be sure if it's quantitatively correct but as I understand it, you'll have a pretty hard time doing all the maths and checking.
I'll test some LX4 setups from before the patch too and upload those. Perhaps it would be nice if people who have put some decent low coast locking factor setups together post them here to show people who struggle just what must be done.
Edit: Niels, I can definitely feel a difference (and, qualitatively the correct one) while progressively increasing locking right up to 80%, and then a difference between that and a locked diff. I can't be sure if it's quantitatively correct but as I understand it, you'll have a pretty hard time doing all the maths and checking.
Last edited by axus, .
The spawns of hell: Locked diffs, high coast locking factor and high preload
I've been wanting to have me a little rant about this for a while now - I've become more and more frustrated with most setups I get lately. Everyone seems to use locked diffs, or if not a clutch pack with high coast locking factor and high preload. To make my point first, some physics.
Locked diffs keep both wheels at a constant speed. With weight transfer taken into account, this means that the outside wheel produces more longitudinal force than the inside one. Open diffs, at the other extreme, result in equal longitudinal forces for both wheels. The clutch pack is somewhere between these extremes depending on where you set it.
When considering clutch packs, we also have to distinguish between coast and power. Coast is while the engine speed is decreasing (ie. braking or... coasting, funnily enough). Power is while engine speed is increasing (ie. your thorttle is greater than neutral throttle). Coast locking factor has no effect while on the power and vice-versa.
Preload simply makes the diff behave as if it were locked over a certain range of torque difference between the wheels.
The other important piece of physics that one has to be familiar with is torque (not from the engine, just the rotational effect caused by a force). Torque is proportional to the magnitude of the force and the perpendicular distance to the center of rotation (in our case, the center of gravity of the car). See the attatched Torque.png.
Imagining a tractive (forward) longitudinal force from an outside wheel, you can see this results in a torque in the direction in which the car is turning (ie. more oversteer). A braking force on the other hand results in a torque in the opposite direction and thus more understeer. The opposite is true for the inside wheel.
So to recap: we've established that a stiffer differential results in more longitudinal force on the outside wheel and less on the inside. An open differential results in equal longitudinal forces on both wheels. Thus, from the points regarding torque, it is obvious that a more locked diff results in more oversteer while accelerating and more understeer while coasting/braking. If this is confusing, see Diffs.png.
So, what's wrong? Well, people tend to use huge coast locking factors (70%+ often) or high preload (so high that often you might as well be driving a locked diff) or a locked diff. With some setup tweaking, this isn't so bad out of the corner and power is controllable. Also, using anti-roll bars, which affect immediate turn-in behaviour (while load is transferring a stiffer rear roll bar or a softer front will increase relative turn-in grip at the front, due to load sensitivity of tyres), people can dial out the inherent coast understeer. However, between turn-in and apex (once the weight has tranferred to the ouside wheels and you are coasting), 90% of setups just understeer and understeer and understeer some more. There's no sensible way to dial this out.
So stop using these retarded locked diffs in the RWD cars especially. And with clutch packs, keep coast locking and preload AS LOW AS POSSIBLE. If you are running more than 30% coast locking, you are probably driving a shitty setup. As a general rule, try to aim for below 20%. And try to keep preload below 60Nm.
Locked diffs keep both wheels at a constant speed. With weight transfer taken into account, this means that the outside wheel produces more longitudinal force than the inside one. Open diffs, at the other extreme, result in equal longitudinal forces for both wheels. The clutch pack is somewhere between these extremes depending on where you set it.
When considering clutch packs, we also have to distinguish between coast and power. Coast is while the engine speed is decreasing (ie. braking or... coasting, funnily enough). Power is while engine speed is increasing (ie. your thorttle is greater than neutral throttle). Coast locking factor has no effect while on the power and vice-versa.
Preload simply makes the diff behave as if it were locked over a certain range of torque difference between the wheels.
The other important piece of physics that one has to be familiar with is torque (not from the engine, just the rotational effect caused by a force). Torque is proportional to the magnitude of the force and the perpendicular distance to the center of rotation (in our case, the center of gravity of the car). See the attatched Torque.png.
Imagining a tractive (forward) longitudinal force from an outside wheel, you can see this results in a torque in the direction in which the car is turning (ie. more oversteer). A braking force on the other hand results in a torque in the opposite direction and thus more understeer. The opposite is true for the inside wheel.
So to recap: we've established that a stiffer differential results in more longitudinal force on the outside wheel and less on the inside. An open differential results in equal longitudinal forces on both wheels. Thus, from the points regarding torque, it is obvious that a more locked diff results in more oversteer while accelerating and more understeer while coasting/braking. If this is confusing, see Diffs.png.
So, what's wrong? Well, people tend to use huge coast locking factors (70%+ often) or high preload (so high that often you might as well be driving a locked diff) or a locked diff. With some setup tweaking, this isn't so bad out of the corner and power is controllable. Also, using anti-roll bars, which affect immediate turn-in behaviour (while load is transferring a stiffer rear roll bar or a softer front will increase relative turn-in grip at the front, due to load sensitivity of tyres), people can dial out the inherent coast understeer. However, between turn-in and apex (once the weight has tranferred to the ouside wheels and you are coasting), 90% of setups just understeer and understeer and understeer some more. There's no sensible way to dial this out.
So stop using these retarded locked diffs in the RWD cars especially. And with clutch packs, keep coast locking and preload AS LOW AS POSSIBLE. If you are running more than 30% coast locking, you are probably driving a shitty setup. As a general rule, try to aim for below 20%. And try to keep preload below 60Nm.
Last edited by axus, .
But Fordman, once used to it, I don't even give the clutch a moment's thought. I don't see why people fuss over it. You sometimes get it a bit wrong and feel the clutch slip for a moment while it works to match the revs of the engine - but this happening a few times a lap even won't hurt you.
Beginners might struggle for a few hours with it but anyone seriously interested in anything remotely simulation-like (read: anyone that should be playing LFS) won't be turned away.
Forced cockpit views? I don't think I've seen that on a public server so what's the problem? It's just for not-pickup-racing.
Beginners might struggle for a few hours with it but anyone seriously interested in anything remotely simulation-like (read: anyone that should be playing LFS) won't be turned away.
Forced cockpit views? I don't think I've seen that on a public server so what's the problem? It's just for not-pickup-racing.
You want the revs to have matched by the time you release the clutch to keep clutch slip to a minimum.
LFS is still exciting and works just fine for pickup racing. You just need to get used to the changes and adjust your driving style. Shouldn't take more than a few days. 
What do you mean, that gear change is slow? You mean that you have to change gear slowly so your clutch doesn't overheat? What you have to remember is that gear change speed is mostly limited by how quickly you can do the drill in an H-shifter car (all the others change gear quickly so I assume you don't mean those). People driving H-shift cars sequentially, with auto-clutch in LFS are using the wrong controller for it and they were getting an unrealistic advantage. To stop that, there is now clutch heat - this way, people can enjoy their G25s fully without falling behind on pace.
I don't see how having to lift your foot off the throttle for the time you change gear makes a game any less fun.
What do you mean, that gear change is slow? You mean that you have to change gear slowly so your clutch doesn't overheat? What you have to remember is that gear change speed is mostly limited by how quickly you can do the drill in an H-shifter car (all the others change gear quickly so I assume you don't mean those). People driving H-shift cars sequentially, with auto-clutch in LFS are using the wrong controller for it and they were getting an unrealistic advantage. To stop that, there is now clutch heat - this way, people can enjoy their G25s fully without falling behind on pace.
I don't see how having to lift your foot off the throttle for the time you change gear makes a game any less fun.
in X32, AI still give themselves quite a shunt into the far wall at in the right hander off the highway on SO4r/5r/6 in some cars. LX4 and LX6 definitely. Considering that, probably the all the TBO road cars too.
AFAIK, GT cars and F1 cars have adjustable rev limiters within a few hundred revs. GP2 cars too probably. But since we don't have proper engine damage and wear, it's not a good idea implementing that just yet because everyone will just go for the highest rev limiter option.
Uh, yes. It's there... I've been using it since I don't have a third pedal.
A smart man once said that as racing sims get better, controling the car will get easier because it will feel more natural. People slide around all the time in real life so why shouldn't you be able to in a simulator?
Formula BMW is an S1 (well, demo) car.
I agree, I find myself going deliberately slowly off the line so that I can have a decent race with them.
AI don't seem to be aware of grip loss due to punctures. An AI tried to take the corner at the end of the straight on Blackwood at full speed with the tyre condition showed below. It just went off the track and crashed.
EDIT: Didn't go into the pits either.
EDIT: Didn't go into the pits either.
More of a small improvement suggestion than a bug that shouldn't be that much work: the AI's braking technique is somewhat lacking, especially in the downforced cars. They try to stand fully on the brakes and the come off them and back on and back off and so on. You can see it in their braking trails on a set with slightly stronger brakes. If they could estimate how much they could press the brakes without locking based on current speed (downforce) and tyre condition they would easily find another half a second I reckon. Anyway, nothing major.
Anyway, nothing major.If you spent more time on track, getting used to it instead of complaining on the forums, you might just *gasp* learn.
Consider this: releasing the throttle manually rather than having the computer do it for you allows people using their clutch pedal to be competitive on a grid because if they can do their shifts properly (bearing in mind it's harder work for them), they will be just as good. Returning the option will again make people playing without a clutch pedal significantly faster. And if I had a G25, I'd be quite annoyed that I can't use it fully while being properly competitive.
You should drive all cars on feeling - in the long run, you'll be faster and more consistent and learn tracks quicker. I used to look at the speedo while driving, then switched to analogue. Then I started driving on feeling - now I'm not tempted to look at the speedo even on cars with a digital one. For god's sake, it's been two days - just let it sink in and stop complaining.
/me joins.
:grouphug:
:grouphug:
You might want to divide your list with transmission types rather than car types. And, for the FBM, what you are meant to do is "put pressure" on the upshift lever. That is, pull the paddle or lever and hold it there. When you lift the throttle momentarily, the car will pop into the next gear almost instantly. Then you can release the paddle/lever and get back on the gas.
The attitude of someone willing, and better yet, keen to adapt to new challenges? Of course the extent of the changes is pretty much proportional to the challenge: if you're turned away by your speed being displayed differently, what will happen when you can't stay in someone's slipstream for more than a few laps because of you radiator overheating? Or setup options being limited to a realistic range? If you're turned away by such a small adjustment, might as well quit now.
Try and adjust. I used to do just that, and having readjusted, I'm much faster, more consistent and even my race craft has improved because I'm not concentrating on what speed I'm going but rather going as fast as I can given the surroundings and conditions.
You'll see that soon you'll be enjoying LFS much more.When opening .set files with LFS.exe, they are placed in the old settings folder rather than setups.
A sign going funky: this is on SO Long rev, before the last of the section of right handers after the really sharp hairpin.
<BoardTimeOut value = "10"> doesn't seem to do anything? Should it be adjusting how long I see the board for? It only disappears when I cross the next sector here.
I suspect it will be used for flags. There's another one like that by the second-third sector split.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG