Quote from pasibrzuch :

If Bourdais wasn't avoiding contact it was same situtation were Massa spinned out Hamilton and was penalised.

Massa wasn't ahead of Bourdais at the point where the pitlane white line ended. Bourdais kept his inside line all the way through the corner, leaving plenty of space on the outside for Massa. What more should Bourdais have done in order to be "avoiding" contact?

Massa just cut in far, far too deep, spun off and the marshals penalised Bourdais in order to keep the championship more interesting. I can't see any other reason. The incident was Massa's fault, he spun and lost time. That's where it should have ended.

Hamilton c0cked up major time at T1, but a penalty? No way.

Apparently for 'running over cars of the track'... well what the hell is this - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4

(that was fine IMO too, I just highlighting the inconstancy)

Bourdais. I said to my oldman who was watching with me as SOON as that happened he would be given a 25 second penalty.... so obvious

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

It could be that Bourdais clips the inside kerb and pops out wide into Massa, or maybe the back steps out and he corrects it into Massa.

Wouldn't that be a legitimate driving error, comparable to Räikkönen shunting Sutil in Monaco (where the aforementioned wasn't penalised)?

Hard to see where Bourdais made an error in judgement which resulted in someone spinning off, like Kovalainen clipped Webber (it was Webber wasn't it?) at Spa's Bus Stop.

Quote from pasibrzuch :

Massa's overtaking on the right side at main straight and just crossing pit lane exit at 300km/h!.... Jesus.. if someone were leaving pits there, we would hear funeral march.

Yep it's a potentially dangerous situation, perhaps FIA should penalise for cross it even if the driver isn't exiting the pits. On the other hand, I think there's never been anything stopping drivers from cutting it except when leaving the pits, so it would have been strange to see a penalty for it.

just looked at the replay. KOVI was the one who ran Kimi off not Hamilton. Hamilton did nothing wrong ffs.. well he did in terms of his OWN race... was stupid... but penalty???

That was a farce of a first lap. Hamilton makes a bad start, pushes his teammate out of the way then forces Raikkonen off at T1 because of his late braking. Then Massa outbrakes himself trying to defend from Hamilton and runs into the side of Hamilton. Both of these were totally deserved penalties. There are a few things to take from this: Firstly, all Hamilton's talk about growing up and learning to drive for the points is bullshit...when the time comes he loses it. Secondly, Massa went back a bit to how he was in the old Sauber days...he shouldn't have hit Hamilton. Thirdly, Hamilton pitted at the end of the first lap to change his badly flatspotted tyres. He flatspotted them on the entry to T1 so he would have known they were badly damaged at the point he tried to outbrake Massa. Was Hamilton trying to take someone along with him?

Quote from amp88 :

That was a farce of a first lap. Hamilton makes a bad start, pushes his teammate out of the way then forces Raikkonen off at T1 because of his late braking. Then Massa outbrakes himself trying to defend from Hamilton and runs into the side of Hamilton. Both of these were totally deserved penalties. There are a few things to take from this: Firstly, all Hamilton's talk about growing up and learning to drive for the points is bullshit...when the time comes he loses it. Secondly, Massa went back a bit to how he was in the old Sauber days...he shouldn't have hit Hamilton. Thirdly, Hamilton pitted at the end of the first lap to change his badly flatspotted tyres. He flatspotted them on the entry to T1 so he would have known they were badly damaged at the point he tried to outbrake Massa. Was Hamilton trying to take someone along with him?

YOU SERIOUS? Deserved penalty? It was KOVY NOT HAMILTON who forced Kimi to take tot he run off from what I can see in the replay! THIS HAPPENS EVERY RACE AT T1. He didn;t FORCE anyone OFF he LOCKED UP himself and that was that! You wouldn't even get kicked in an LFS race for that!

Hamilton F^%&ED up but he force Kimi off, and if he had so what? Remember this - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4

Quote from amp88 :

He flatspotted them on the entry to T1 so he would have known they were badly damaged at the point he tried to outbrake Massa. Was Hamilton trying to take someone along with him?

no? he was told on the radio after spin pit in your tyres are gone, were going 1 stop.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Massa wasn't ahead of Bourdais at the point where the pitlane white line ended. Bourdais kept his inside line all the way through the corner, leaving plenty of space on the outside for Massa. What more should Bourdais have done in order to be "avoiding" contact?

Massa just cut in far, far too deep, spun off and the marshals penalised Bourdais in order to keep the championship more interesting. I can't see any other reason. The incident was Massa's fault, he spun and lost time. That's where it should have ended.

+1

F1 isn't what it used to be... even 10 years ago we never had such a large degree of blatant daylight fixing of the results.

lol yh forced Kimi off... no that was Kovy and SO WHAT if he did.

Quote from Intrepid :

lol yh forced Kimi off... no that was Kovy and SO WHAT if he did.

yeah but did you see how hamilton locked up and shot past kimi? he nearly actually took him out, kimi had to go offtrack and then Kovy came and made it worse. Still, too harsh

Quote :

YOU SERIOUS? Deserved penalty? It was KOVY NOT HAMILTON who forced Kimi to take tot he run off from what I can see in the replay! THIS HAPPENS EVERY RACE AT T1. He didn;t FORCE anyone OFF he LOCKED UP himself and that was that! You wouldn't even get kicked in an LFS race for that!

Hamilton F^%&ED up but he force Kimi off, and if he had so what? Remember this - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4

Capital letters make yah feel smart, no?

Quote :

lol yh forced Kimi off... no that was Kovy and SO WHAT if he did.

One could always take the stance that Kovalainen would not have made contact with Räikkönen, had the latter of the two not had to avoid Hamilton.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Bourdais kept his inside line all the way through the corner, leaving plenty of space on the outside for Massa. What more should Bourdais have done in order to be "avoiding" contact?

Massa just cut in far, far too deep, spun off and the marshals penalised Bourdais in order to keep the championship more interesting. I can't see any other reason. The incident was Massa's fault, he spun and lost time. That's where it should have ended.

As Storm Cloud said, it is hard to tell from tv footage, two onboards are needed. Massa went too deep, true, maybe he was expacting Bourdais going deep too? Then it is Massa fault.

Quote from Intrepid :

YOU SERIOUS? Deserved penalty? It was KOVY NOT HAMILTON who forced Kimi to take tot he run off from what I can see in the replay! THIS HAPPENS EVERY RACE AT T1. He didn;t FORCE anyone OFF he LOCKED UP himself and that was that! You wouldn't even get kicked in an LFS race for that!

Hamilton F^%&ED up but he force Kimi off, and if he had so what? Remember this - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4

After driving against you in LFS I can't take anything you say seriously. You're a joke. As to your point here...Hamilton stopped Raikkonen from turning in because he was fully locked up on the inside. It was Kovalainen who actually ran him off the road but he was pushed out of position by Hamilton.

On the note of tyres, if you watch the replay from Hamilton when he's trying to overtake Massa you can see the discolouration of the tyre around the flatspot. It would have been very clear to Hamilton that he had this flatspot, so there's no doubt in my mind Hamilton knew he would have to pit to get them changed.

Quote from pasibrzuch :

As Storm Cloud said, it is hard to tell from tv footage, two onboards are needed. Massa went too deep, true, maybe he was expacting Bourdais going deep too? Then it is Massa fault.

A better view would be nice, yes. Onboards could help, albeit they might not see far enough to the sides. Top-down would be ace

Quote from amp88 :

After driving against you in LFS I can't take anything you say seriously. You're a joke. As to your point here...Hamilton stopped Raikkonen from turning in because he was fully locked up on the inside. It was Kovalainen who actually ran him off the road but he was pushed out of position by Hamilton.

On the note of tyres, if you watch the replay from Hamilton when he's trying to overtake Massa you can see the discolouration of the tyre around the flatspot. It would have been very clear to Hamilton that he had this flatspot, so there's no doubt in my mind Hamilton knew he would have to pit to get them changed.

I don't recall you. I guess your one of those instantly forgettable racers who never attempts to defend a position, or try to overtake..just leisurely hot lapping during a race

Hamilton f&^*ed royally but what he did wasn't illegal. He locked up. Overtaking inherently requires someone to block someone from turning into a corner. You're car is there in their way!

Hamilton was penalised for forcing Kimi 'off the track'. From what I can see it was in fact Kovy who forced Kimi to take to the run off area If that to be true then all Hamilton did was push Kimi a bit wide.... which is RACING it happens all the time!

I don't think there are many people that thought he would be investigated when it happened.

Seb's penalty was not a retrospective drive through - they announced they were going to investigate after the race. That means the penalty is appealable.

Do you think Scuderia Toro Rosso Ferrari will appeal?

Just to defend Kovalainen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SLMIXpsOq0

It's only going to be up for a few minutes I guess, but just watch his car: he gets a bit of Hamilton in his face, then has to brake hard when Hamilton locks up right in front of him, and inevitably runs into Raikkonen.

Hamilton forces Raikkonen wide, and Kovalainen has to brake to avoid Hamilton, and meets up with Raikkonen after that. So who is at fault really?

Still, not worthy of a penalty, and Massa getting a free point for his own reckless driving is just... FIA.

The whole situation from the first lap reminds me good old demo times (when I had civilised internet connection)...
At T1 it was like: OMG another wrecker! train offline noob! kick voting etc.
At T2 spin off: press shift+r for NITRO! oh cmoe guys, restart please

:P

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Seb's penalty was not a retrospective drive through - they announced they were going to investigate after the race. That means the penalty is appealable.

Do you think Scuderia Toro Rosso Ferrari will appeal?

i dont think so, after the Mclaren appeal got rejected i think they're gonna let it go as its really low chance they will win anything :/

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Do you think Scuderia Toro Rosso Ferrari will appeal?

If it's appealable, I certainly hope so.

I support massa and all but this penalty is ridiculous.

Bourdais had no way to avoid colloision and he has every riht to be there becuase it was for position.

Remeber the days when a racing incident was a racing incident.

Kimi locked rears at monaco and ended Sutils race, Hamilton locked fronts and forced Kimi wide???

About Bourdais, I dont think he in his wildist dreams thought Massa would be there, there was such a large speed differential on entry.

Edit: Bordais responds on Autosport

Quote from Jertje :

Just to defend Kovalainen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SLMIXpsOq0

It's only going to be up for a few minutes I guess, but just watch his car: he gets a bit of Hamilton in his face, then has to brake hard when Hamilton locks up right in front of him, and inevitably runs into Raikkonen.

Hamilton forces Raikkonen wide, and Kovalainen has to brake to avoid Hamilton, and meets up with Raikkonen after that. So who is at fault really?

Still, not worthy of a penalty, and Massa getting a free point for his own reckless driving is just... FIA.

See that's the thing. In ANY race people will be forced wide, and sometimes off the track. But all Hamilton did was force Kimi wide. That is not a DT in the slightest. It was a TERRIBLE mistake by Lewis, but a DT... come on... every race start for the last BILLION years has people being forced wide etc...

We could do single file rolling starts though? That would solve the problem! lol

If we want to follow the rule book word for word it was Kovy who blocked Kimi taking the normal race track.

aarrgghh frig it all... lost patience... I stayed after Spa continuing to watch this 'circus', but I aint getting up for China!

Quote from SAxor :

Kimi locked rears at monaco and ended Sutils race

Räikkönen wasn't attempting to pass Sutil. It was a legitimate driving error, racing incident.

Quote :

Hamilton locked fronts and forced Kimi wide???

Hamilton was attempting to pass Räikkönen. had Räikkönen taken an evasive, a collision would have occurred. Bad judgement call by Hamilton, not a racing incident.

Quote :

About Bourdais, I dont think he in his wildist dreams thought Massa would be there, there was such a large speed differential on entry.

I disagree. Bourdais took a deeper line through the turn than he would have if Massa hadn't been approaching the corner much faster at his 8 o'clock.

edit: In case Saxor doesn't add linky to his edit.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360

Quote from Bean0 :

Just heard on Sky News, Bourdais penalised...Massa promoted one place.

WTF !!!!!!!!!

Edit:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71351

W T F indeed.

I suppose Bourdais should have activated his Red Bull Wings and allows Massa to go under him. Oh wait, but then he would have been penalised for running over Massa. :rolleyes: