Experiment #1:
1. Use telemetry.
2. Do a lap in an rfactor track.
3. Notice the continuous bumping around at high speed.
4. Read the telemetry.
5. Where are all those bumps?

Experiment #2:
1. Go to the new super track by ISI, Monza.
2. Use a layout with the oval.
3. Notice how the car bottoms out on every segment of the polygons of the curved surface. So, ovals in real life are not smooth - they're built out of multiple same-sized flat panels...
4. Minor graphics point, but notice the shadow... that's interesting - it's affected by... gravity? It appears that all of the shadow is at the bottom of the oval and is totally unrelated to my car. Spooky.

Neat concept in rfactor I liked, for a while:
- Day/night cycle. Annoying though how the sun's glare is this "point" in space that even shows up through polygons (it's rendered after everything else apparently... nice).

Tracks are dead looking though - there's nothing like flapping banners, swaying trees, etc. Note: Please, do not add flapping banners using animated textures with 4 frames of animation (saw that), I'd prefer the banners to show me the direction the wind is blowing. And yes, thats eye-candy, I like eye-candy when it a. provides info, b. adds to the immersion and c. doesn't total my FPS.

Oh yeah, and the AI can be more interesting than LFS's as training partners (mostly because they know how to pit and do try avoiding collisions more often) - but that's been said over and over.

there are some cool things in rfactor i'd like to see in lfs. like the motec telematry thingy

One could just write a converter/importer to get the LFS telemetry data into Motec... I actually wanted to do that some time ago but forgot about it. Now you brought it back to my mind and I might give it a shot...

Alan, I'm gonna quote Tweak here:
If you cannot feel a slide coming in LFS you probably cannot feel hot water splashing on your eyes.

As for the feel, its a matter of preference for what you want from FF frankly - rFactor attempts to simulate the feel of the car shaking through vibrations in the wheel... why do this is beyond me because it just masks the feel of under/oversteer but some people seem to like it . LFS just does the feel through the tyres and it feels great to me. In rFactor you can set the FF lower and switch that stuff off, you say, but the problem is that the basic feel is wrong because it isn't simulated properly.

I haven't heard anyone complain about cars being easier to drive in rFactor than LFS. Some have come along and complained about how "easy" LFS is but they're no-where near WR pace - which is what they haven't realised: LFS is easy to drive (like your normal road car or indeed race car because race cars are actually easy to drive as that's the only thing they're made to do) but difficult to be fast in and on the edge. However, once a slide comes whilst racing, its not all tears - you can catch it... although you'd have lost time.

We were displaying LFS at an RL racing event on the weekend. A 5 or 6 year old kid came on and he did a 1:15.xx on his first lap of Aston Club/FOX (and indeed of LFS) whilst barely reaching the pedals and looking at the road through the gap in the steering wheel! He eventually got down to a 1:06.66! WR there is in the region of mid 1:00's. He caught a couple of slides too! 90% of people were as usual, completely incapable of realising that this is like driving in real life and you can't just throw the car into corners at full speed, but you could see that the few that were good were completely engaged by the car and could feel everything.

And the tracks lacking environment?! I agree with you that many are too wide, and the straights are too long and so on - they have great sections of thrilling corners but some straights are boringly long. South City and Fern Bay are my favourite layouts because of that. Kyoto GP is excellent because the straights aren't stupidly long and the corners are awesomely technical. But there are sooooo many things to use as reference points for braking, and turn-in, and what have you! I suggest you visit South City Long/City a bit more often. Something like the LX4 there will have you screaming for more.

Sounds are indeed waiting for a major fix-up, and the same goes for AI. The graphics engine may not be the most modern but atleast its not overdone and you don't have to squint at the screen whilst driving - I'd love to see LFS go to DirectX 9 though.

To me, rFactor needss a complete re-write before it comes anywhere near LFS in terms of feel - true, its a bit more lively and all, but that will come in LFS soon enough.

Quote from severin_schoepke :

One could just write a converter/importer to get the LFS telemetry data into Motec... I actually wanted to do that some time ago but forgot about it. Now you brought it back to my mind and I might give it a shot...

AWSOME:laola:

Quote from Alan Dove :

If LFS had more bumps, more feel, and better tracks then we would have a good game. For now we have an 'idea'. the base is there, but the devs, imo, need to turn the amp up to eleven! They should stop fannying around with the raw physics, and get working on making the cars sound lush!

Lets get the circuits smaller, more detailed, and get some nice surface changes with bumps.

People can go on about code and so on! I don't understand how it all works, and it doesn't interest me. The game needs to go full throttle.

I think the devs shot themselves in the foot with the circuits. SOOO LLOOONNNGG and wide! You play a circuit for long enough, and you find 95% is at full throttle.

Too much code can be a bad thing. And there is no point in a having a realistic physic engine working on tracks that no one would drive in reality, let along in a game.

It needs that wow factor, and if it implemented what I suggest then you would have a truly great game. But I fear the devs are digging themselves a hole. what's the point of having a mathmatically perfect simulation when the circuits, and sounds aren't realistic! There's no way to fully understand the potential of the engine!

The tacks sure as hell don't seem too wide with BF1 and GTR cars. In addition, I have no need for a lot of cars and tracks, if the physics is crap. After the April physics improveent the satisfaction from game play increased quite a lot. In rFactor I get no satisfaction from actualy driving the car. It's more like I'm playing it because there is a sort of a career mode and I want to complete that. In LFS I can go around one track for hours, because it feels very rewarding...

I don't get how people don't like long tracks. For me it's: the longer, the better. In Fe Club you have like 5 corners. How many do you have in FE Black? It's a fantastic challenge and yet almost noone plays it...

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

I don't get how people don't like long tracks. For me it's: the longer, the better. In Fe Club you have like 5 corners. How many do you have in FE Black? It's a fantastic challenge and yet almost noone plays it...

We don't like long straights - there's a difference. Aston North = lots of corners with short straights. Same goes for Fern Bay Black, South City Long/Town, Kyoto GP Long...

I prefer LFS over rFactor BECAUSE LFS let me feel the car, the reactions, the surface...when driving rFactor I always have the feeling as if the car is not ON the track, just a few cm above the surface (apart from the ISI- Monza-Oval)..I dont know how explain the lack of feeling the car and tracks better as my english isnt that good

Its because of the system developed for driving LFS with a keyboard or mouse - its far more advanced than that of rFactor or GTR or anything else!

As for the feel... believe what you will, but your steering wheel doesn't shake in a real car when you lock the front tyres up, it just becomes light when turing (because of the force centeroid moving closer to the point where the steering axis meets the ground). illepall

...maybe you're just not a good enough driver.

Quote from Alan Dove :

Also, how on earth can people be so quick with mouses and keyboards. that's just wrong. The reason why is because the game relies upon visual feedback more so than proper feedback.

I gotta say my PB's have dropped a lot when I went from ks->wheel. Before I worked like hell to know exactly when I had to press the turn button, otherwise I would take the corner wrong (I used ks for a year). However, I did have the benefit of being able to steer the front wheels a lot quicker than wheel users. Perhaps you should look at the hotlaps section and then come here and start telling keyboard users are quick. It's not "that's just wrong" it's more like "you are just wrong" or "you are just slow".

He's got a point about the tracks, though. Especially in the Formula cars, LFS tracks mostly are "too" flat.

As an example: Kyoto GP, the Esses around split 1 should be designed in a way that they are 3rd-4th gear corners in that you have to fether the throttle in the BF1, not just plow through them flatout.

Quote from Alan Dove :

I am not buying you can feel whats going on!
When you lock up the fronts there is no feedback what so ever, and you rely purely on the visual feedback to judge braking pressure! That's just wrong!

Hmm, thats a good point, but I can 'feel' when the front tyres lock..it's not just the visual feedback (in a roofed car it isn't possible I guess)..the car doesn't turn like I want it to turn or becomes 'light'..at least for me..
Regarding the tracks: here i agree..but at the moment all tracks are challening for me as I just have started with LFS

Quote from Alan Dove :

I am not buying you can feel whats going on!

When you lock up the fronts there is no feedback what so ever, and you rely purely on the visual feedback to judge braking pressure! That's just wrong!

I didn't say LFS should have 'real' tracks either. Just better, more imaginative tracks that really challange you. At the moment the tracks are more like a dot to dot driving experience.

Look, I know on a LFS forum everyone is going to say LFS is the best or whatever, but I fear you lot can't see the wood for the tree's. Of course LFS has the most mathmatically correct hanmdling model, but it doesn't translate quite as well as it should.

Also, how on earth can people be so quick with mouses and keyboards. that's just wrong. The reason why is because the game relies upon visual feedback more so than proper feedback.

You don`t give up easily !? Do you !

I have tried almost any sim racing out there. As demo or game. Earlier cargames are very cheap.

I bougth toca racedriver online, and played around with it for a few hours. It sits on my computer, doing nothing - A total waste of my money. I got the gtr2 as a gift for my birthday (gets it this week). The game hasn`t hit the market i Denmark yet, but I drove the demo. This is a game too.

Tried R factor demo, and this flop Nkart.

Again. I play toca, I play Rfactor, I play Nkart, I play gtr 2 - But i drive LFS !

As simple as that.

EDIT :

BTW - Have you ever driven a real car ?

REEDIT :

Regarding the tracks. I have driven Lfs for 2 or three years now. Lfs tracks exsists in my brain, and are just as real as any IRL racing track.

btw. hi Phil

Quote from Alan Dove :

I am not buying you can feel whats going on!

When you lock up the fronts there is no feedback what so ever, and you rely purely on the visual feedback to judge braking pressure! That's just wrong!

Hrmm... just what exactly do you count as feedback? The steering wheel gets lighter and you can feel when the wheels start revolving again (and if they're turned again the feedback is much different), which wheel is loaded and if the tyre is flexing... if the suspension bottoms out and you're bouncing across on your tyres you can feel that as well...

Quote :

Also, how on earth can people be so quick with mouses and keyboards. that's just wrong. The reason why is because the game relies upon visual feedback more so than proper feedback.

Well, it takes alot (read: too much) practice to be really fast with a keyboard. And the reason they can be quick with a keyboard is because of the keyboard input stabilization LFS provides (which is user-tweakable up to an extent). However, actually racing (not hotlapping) with a keyboard is much more difficult than in rFactor - especially on some tracks it's close to impossible.

EDIT:
Rfactor's keyboard aiding as I recall helps you stay on the ideal line (as it's actually more of a general "steering aid"), while LFS's just smooths out the movement - both help out with countersteering.

EDIT #2:
Btw, I'm not trying to convince you LFS is better. To each his own. I just find the point about the feedback weird.

Quote :

The bumps may be 'an effect' but they feel real. In LFS you get NONE!

I think that what's needed is a distinction between "feel" and "livelyness". I think it's true to say that the ISI games are more lively (and I'm comparing GTR2 here to LFS). Liveleyness in this sense comes about through the bumps, the vibrations, the throatier sampled sounds- things which are interpreted by someone sitting at a computer as "this is like a race car. It's noisy, loud, rough, it's giving me the sensation of being close to a powerful engine". LFS (once again I'll point out I'm a mouse driver, I'm just going by what you guys describe) seems to scrap all of that in favour of the actual driving mechanic. The sensation of driving is giving way to the importance of feeling that the car is actually behaving correctly. I would say that ultimately both of these things are important when the intention is to "simulate" what it's like to be in a race-car. Coming off one sim onto the other is going to please and frustrate you because the strenghs and focus of each is in a different area. If you're used to one, you will immediately miss what is lacking in the other.

As is, I'm really excited about LFS, it is a sim with huge potential. I bet that if I had a wheel (hopefully getting one soon ) and the option to play either LFS or rFactor, I would choose LFS. Graphics, and meaty sounds- however much I think they're important, I realize that if the driving mechanic is off- that's a bad place to be. LFS is not finished- there's still a long way go (including physics). All of this "livelyness" can come later. I hope it does come (some of it)- as it's an element of "simulation". But I realize now that the devs have had their priorities in order from the start. LFS is one solid piece of racing.

I have a bad feeling about where this seems to be going, not that one of my recent posts helped..

Anyway,

Quote from Alan Dove :

Look, I know on a LFS forum everyone is going to say LFS is the best or whatever, but I fear you lot can't see the wood for the tree's. Of course LFS has the most mathmatically correct hanmdling model, but it doesn't translate quite as well as it should.

It still sounds odd that you coming from rF can tell "us" something about how good LFS is when you want features and effects from other game/sim just for the looks. If those bumps, for example, can be felt through the steering wheel but don't show in the telemetry, then they are just useless effects to "make you feel the car", while in fact they just mask the useless stuff. Why to add effects when they are unrealistic, in the name of realism?

Quote from Alan Dove :

Also, how on earth can people be so quick with mouses and keyboards. that's just wrong. The reason why is because the game relies upon visual feedback more so than proper feedback.

With mouse you can have very precise and steady inputs. A hand is also faster and more precise than a leg. The problem with the mousers is that their throttle and brakes are digital, but with some damping this can be easened.

Quote from Hoellsen :

He's got a point about the tracks, though. Especially in the Formula cars, LFS tracks mostly are "too" flat.

As an example: Kyoto GP, the Esses around split 1 should be designed in a way that they are 3rd-4th gear corners in that you have to fether the throttle in the BF1, not just plow through them flatout.

Agreed, but this problem is even more pronounced only because instead of many tracks we have many configs. Of course it is easier and takes less time, but different configs are far away from different tracks.

Quote from alland44 :

BTW - Have you ever driven a real car ?

I don't think that means anything. Unless you have driven a lot on a race track, pushin the car on redline on the very limit of the grip you can make comments about sims. The whole idea of daily driving has absolutely nothing to do with sim racing. There isn't anything similar, period. Look for the BL1 turn1 for example. If you were driving a 300hp rwd car there for the first time, you wouldn't try to drive throuhg it at 100 kph. But because you would do it in a sim and failed, it doesn't mean that the sim is wrong illepall

The Intrepid account is one that Will Dendy bought to get back into OWRL after was banned. He was banned again as Intrepid. Since then the account was passed to Swifty (the foolish looking friend of Will's), Alan and probably quite a few others.

And I'm not going to argue with you Alan, but you are quite clearly a fool if you think rFactor has more feel than LFS. Every plus you've written about rFactor is the exact opposite, and applies to LFS. Every downside of LFS you've written actually applies to rFactor.

You've either set up the car wrong, set up the wheel wrong, or you're so used to karts you've forgotten what a real car drives like.

OT: Why was Will banned from OWRL? The people there seem quite reasonable to me.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The Intrepid account is one that Will Dendy bought to get back into OWRL after was banned. He was banned again as Intrepid. Since then the account was passed to Swifty (the foolish looking friend of Will's), Alan and probably quite a few others.

What he do to get banned twice!?

And why are others using an account not registered to themselves? What's the benefit?

Quote from Hyperactive :

With mouse you can have very precise and steady inputs. A hand is also faster and more precise than a leg. The problem with the mousers is that their throttle and brakes are digital, but with some damping this can be easened.

I don't think this is the case ( hand faster and more precise).
As you stated, the mouse controls are digital, and there is no real finger tip sense involved. None-the-less, people can get used to whatever input they have available, and be fast, as they no no other options. I used to be pretty fast just using a joystick before I got a wheel.

But the point is, you CAN feel what's going in in LFS more so than the other sims. As people mentioned, the steering feels 'light', you also feel the brakes aren't taking effect at 3/4th throw where they normally do at 1/2. You can 'feel' that you are travelling too fast, or that the wheels aren't digging in, at various points in a curve. Yes this is based on visual cues, but so is real world driving. They have more physical sensations to rely on, but they still have to realize they are at 'point C' in a turn and should be at a given speed/angle, etc.

The racing in LFS is instinctive, which is the bottom line for why it's so much better. It's not simply point to point, otherwise, so many people would not be so constantly improving - you'd simply plug in the formula and be tied with the WR if that was the case.

Quote from Alan Dove :

Look at Hendrix for example. A virtuoso performer who improvised a lot. For sure his musical ability was stemmed in heavy theory, but he took it further and to the next level.

Actually, he was self-taught.

Quote :

It's quite simple really. The base is there. The icing needs to be added. LFS needs to go crazy loco, and create a sensory overload. And you need to do that to make up for the lack of ass feel!

Well there's not much more "feel" with audio, visuals and the forces applied to the front wheels translated to your hands via the wheel that can actually be transmitted and be useful... not possible to go for "sensory overload" and remain realistic at the same time - are you talking about the "fanciness" factor by any chance?

But there is a HUGE difference between driving an old 1.9 GTi on our english roads, and driving a race car, on a race track.

I am not getting into the whole my dads bigger than your dad BS,, if you like rF, good, go play it, stop try to convert and the same goes for LFS fans too.

Bottomline, IMO, (and yes, I have driven on race tracks, and in race cars) LFS is the best racing sim BAR NONE atm.

Dan,

Alan, if you think your wheel should vibrate when you lock up the front wheels, then you know absolutely nothing about cars and ISI sims communicate to you via a fake feel that I would hate to have in LFS. In LFS you can just jump in and drive. In ISI sims you have to learn the "language" of the sim. There's not only force feedback to communicate what's going on to you - there's sound and visuals. Each play an equal role and LFS does a great job of comining them. It might not be "WOW OMG" but learn to pay attention to what LFS is saying to you - its subtle yet it feels great. The issue is exhausted from my side.

PS. How about seing a replay from you driving?