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Formula One Season 2012
(1284 posts, started )
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Quote from CSF :Should Grosjean have gone on the racing line and been wiped out by Perez sooner?

Well if you watch from the TV camera positioned looking over the rear of Grosjean, you see that he saw Perez coming and just dove up the inside. So I agree with bbman on this one.
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(aroX123) DELETED by Victor : Conversations are held with words, not pictures. We're not in kindergarten here.
Quote from BlueFlame :Well if you watch from the TV camera positioned looking over the rear of Grosjean, you see that he saw Perez coming and just dove up the inside. So I agree with bbman on this one.

That's still an unsafe re-join, and still a penalty for Perez.
Quote from CSF :That's still an unsafe re-join, and still a penalty for Perez.

Nobody is disputing that.
"This message has been deleted by Victor. Reason: Conversations are held with words, not pictures. We're not in kindergarten here."

well victor why wasn't Jackdamasters post removed? YOU FAIL WITH YOUR OWN LOGIC LOLOLOLOL
It's just ridiculous to say that a driver didn't earn a championship they won or to say that they should've won some other time. F1 is a team sport and the best team (you need to have a good team behind you) usually wins. There are exceptions of course when a driver actually won the championship with a worse car than his rivals but so what? The drivers who won the championship in certain year deserved and earned the victory 100%.

And to add it's hilarious to see how you judge a car simply by who was driving it. Alonso's Renault was a piece of shit but Vettel's Red Bull is way better than the others. Next I think some of you will tell us that 2009 Räikkönen drove with the best car in the grid simply because the person hates Räikkönen and refuses to believe he's fast. YOU DON'T KNOW, there is no possible way for you to know which car was the best except for some very rare seasons because a car designed for one track can be horrible in another and the factors influencing how the race weekend goes has too many variables for you. Also the power differences change during the season so there's no absolutely best car.
Well, you can tell by watching someone drive generally whether they are getting the absolute maximum out of it or not. If someone misses 3/4 apex's in a lap, or has a huge moment and loses .3 in that 1 sector then you can tell that they aren't getting the most out of it. And if you see someone clearly on the limit, hitting the apexes nicely and yet they lose .3 in 1 sector you can see they most likely haven't got the downforce to compete. So it's hardly pointless, its actually quite fun and its surely what all the top teams have to do to get the best drivers in their car. But the main problem Kimi has in terms of "reputation" is that he struggled against Massa in qualifying(more than in races, a similar trend to Grosjean), who Alonso is now destroying in qualifying. That could be car specific so I'll admit that isn't definitive, but he hasn't really had the upper hand in qualifying against Grosjean either especially before the updates. You don't get points in qualifying, but you're making your life a lot harder starting outside the top 10 because you don't get your lap right when it matters, so I'm not saying Grosjean is better - but I don't think hes such a god in races that he can throw away 5-6 seconds at the start of a grand prix in traffic and still have a claim to be the best 1.

For a team like Lotus, he's great. If you count F1 in divisions, with Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton in the top division, Kimi has a definite claim to be best of the rest in the division below them and thats probably the best they could hope for. What Kimi did in Abu Dhabi, is what you would expect of Alonso. But yet a lot of people are like "See, Kimi is awesome." when actually, you're judged a lot more for when you make a mistake and throw away points than when you do a really good performance and get a couple more points. The thing which was amazing about Alonso's season was that he was getting those couple of extra points fairly consistently, without having any races where he was just nowhere or got it wrong(which admittedly he did at Suzuka, but when you're midpack at the start every race then I guess its inevitable that happens once, both Vettel and Hamilton have made more mistakes racing wheel to wheel this season, and they've done less of it). Thats why I'd say Vettel was lucky, because he made 2 mistakes which both could have cost him significant time, and luck was involved so it didnt.

I wanted to make it not an essay but I wanted to try and make it as balanced as I could as an Alonso fan. I guess something will always come through though
In other news:



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Could be broken from the previous contact.
Possibly hmmmmm.

Or possibly broken nose is broken.
Hey Simon, time to take out all the stuff deep inside your butthole, it hurts you know it by now.

Everyone has their opinions. I respect your opinion thruthfully, and everyone elses about Kimi. Some points you said I can even agree with, and other parts 'comes in the other ear and goes out the other ear'.

Some of us might remember Kimi debuting in F1. He was flying. Compared to nowadays teams, Caterham would describe Kimi's sauber. And still he was flying. On his ****ing first ever F1 Grand Prix. Yes he did not finish the race (for a reason I cannot remember right now) but he showed us what he can do. Everyone doubted him due to lack of experience in league racing, but his talent spoke for himself; FIA let him race.

It was not long until he took his place in Mclaren and followed Häkkinen's footsteps. Some say 'Apprentice beat his master' some say Häkkinen is unbeatable finn, some say Keke is unbeatable finn. To me they are all the same level. They all have had their shining moments in the spotlights, they all have succeeded in their careers.

It was a lot due to Mclarens (sabotage even?) mechanical and whatever failures that ****ed up Kimis chances for getting the Championships, he had all the pace he needed and all the talent he needed to win the championship. So did Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel (during different years of course) and I am quite happy to say everyone who has won their championship, deserve it. Afterall, you don't win a championship even with 50% luck, it's HELL OF A LOT work put in to getting the car go fast. Even luck cannot beat a car that is 3 seconds per lap faster than the other.

Vettel's performance in Abu Dhabi showed both talent, right calls and a bit of luck here and there. It's the exact same in LFS, any sim, real life, Safety car will either a) **** up your race b) doesn't really affect your performance or c) give you unexpectedly well results. Take a guess which one took place in Vettel's performance. (See: I'm not hating; extremely good driving from Vettel on sunday!)

Let us also think about Schumacher. He did a comeback with no real success whatsoever. He is the best of the best if you look at his championship wins. The F1 legend. And yet again, he cannot even compete for top 5 anymore. On the other hand, Kimi has taken few seasons off, and yet it seems he is able to battle for podiums and even took a win. I believe that Lotus is gonna be one of the most consistant and powerful teams in the future, already next season we will see Kimi on the top of the podium more often than this year. I really believe so. This is due to Lotus getting more and more experience with their cars etc, and Kimi will just do what he can. Which he has done so far aswell, in my mind with a car that is not as competitive as Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren Mercedes has been.

If you read all of it, gg.
It's such a retarded essay, but hey, I threw my opinions out there to balance the hate=love discussion. MY opinions.
Quote from IsaacPrice :Well, you can tell by watching someone drive generally whether they are getting the absolute maximum out of it or not. If someone misses 3/4 apex's in a lap, or has a huge moment and loses .3 in that 1 sector then you can tell that they aren't getting the most out of it. And if you see someone clearly on the limit, hitting the apexes nicely and yet they lose .3 in 1 sector you can see they most likely haven't got the downforce to compete. So it's hardly pointless, its actually quite fun and its surely what all the top teams have to do to get the best drivers in their car. But the main problem Kimi has in terms of "reputation" is that he struggled against Massa in qualifying(more than in races, a similar trend to Grosjean), who Alonso is now destroying in qualifying. That could be car specific so I'll admit that isn't definitive, but he hasn't really had the upper hand in qualifying against Grosjean either especially before the updates. You don't get points in qualifying, but you're making your life a lot harder starting outside the top 10 because you don't get your lap right when it matters, so I'm not saying Grosjean is better - but I don't think hes such a god in races that he can throw away 5-6 seconds at the start of a grand prix in traffic and still have a claim to be the best 1.

For a team like Lotus, he's great. If you count F1 in divisions, with Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton in the top division, Kimi has a definite claim to be best of the rest in the division below them and thats probably the best they could hope for. What Kimi did in Abu Dhabi, is what you would expect of Alonso. But yet a lot of people are like "See, Kimi is awesome." when actually, you're judged a lot more for when you make a mistake and throw away points than when you do a really good performance and get a couple more points. The thing which was amazing about Alonso's season was that he was getting those couple of extra points fairly consistently, without having any races where he was just nowhere or got it wrong(which admittedly he did at Suzuka, but when you're midpack at the start every race then I guess its inevitable that happens once, both Vettel and Hamilton have made more mistakes racing wheel to wheel this season, and they've done less of it). Thats why I'd say Vettel was lucky, because he made 2 mistakes which both could have cost him significant time, and luck was involved so it didnt.

I wanted to make it not an essay but I wanted to try and make it as balanced as I could as an Alonso fan. I guess something will always come through though

That implies Massa is as good as was as Kimis team mate now, which i don't think is the case, also Hamilton Destroyed Alonso in Qualfiying in his Rookie year, what about that?

Qualifying isn't everything, drivers like Kimi show that time and time again.
Actually, having looked at this, it's a broken wing. Look where the guy with the new wing positions his hands. It's the same as the guy trying to lift the wing pff the car. He lifts the winglet and it's snapped, and then moves his hand. It's broken, nothing more.
Yes we know the winglets were broken, but the nose itself shouldn't have been damaged in either impact... unless you mean the TV camera?
Ever stop to think that there front wing assembly may require them to turn the Camera pods to get it off, if you look closely he turns the pods, then presses something underneath the nose and it comes off.

If there is Camera pod flex I don't think that would matter though because that's not exactly their design.
Considering the vast majority of camera pods are dummy pods, no I have a sneaking suspicion that isn't it.
Quote from IsaacPrice :Well, you can tell by watching someone drive generally whether they are getting the absolute maximum out of it or not. If someone misses 3/4 apex's in a lap,

Funny you should mention that, because that is how I remember 60+% of Vettels pole laps.
Quote from CSF :Yes we know the winglets were broken, but the nose itself shouldn't have been damaged in either impact... unless you mean the TV camera?

Sorry I mean cameras/winglet thigns, whatever the **** they are called.

Who knows how load/pressure is distributed through a wing when it ocntacts with something like a tyre or a distance board (how did he hit that? that's karma from when BUtton nearly hit him when he randomly stamped on the brakes behind a S/C a few races ago)

If this was 'normal' movement the mechanic would be thick as shit to try and lift it from that point and then revert to the centre of the nose to place his hand.
Quote from Mustafur :That implies Massa is as good as was as Kimis team mate now, which i don't think is the case, also Hamilton Destroyed Alonso in Qualfiying in his Rookie year, what about that?


@ the first part of what you said: No? Kimi used to be team mates with Massa so comparing Alonso to Massa and Raikkonen to Massa in their comparative seasons will give some idea, not a perfect 1 but an idea. The fact Kimi's weaknesses remained the same continues that trend. There is never a definitive answer to the question, but you can get interesting insights.

@ second part: Well, he didn't actually "destroy" him in qualifying. That was a perception build up by the fact Hamilton was a rookie and shouldn't be able to walk in and do that. Hamilton did have the advantage by the end of the season in the head to head, but then compare that to Button who is a world champion who's been team mates with Hamilton, and his stats are far worse than Alonso. Its hard to say exactly how that would be different now after Hamilton has extra experience, but I think Hamilton was a very well prepared rookie entering F1 at an ideal time with the control bridgestone tyres coming in etc. Obviously not an advantage over Alonso, but made it easier to overcome the natural difficulties a rookie would have. But even Alonso himself has said he isn't the fastest in F1, looking at the very fractional differences between the top 3(Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton) qualifying is an area he lacks - yes. Alonso obviously didn't handle being beaten by a rookie very well and was destroyed in that sense, yes.
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When two drivers of Equal reputation are in the same team it turns things on their head, Kimi and Montoya is a perfect example, For all we know Vettel could make Alonso look like Massa at Ferrari, those that Critque certain drivers tend to look at what they haven't done rather then what they have and thats hardly fair.
Look at Dindo Capello, the guy was in his 40's and still one of the quickest LMP1 drivers going and both Nigel Mansell AND Alain Prost were almost 40 when they win in 1992 and 1993 respectively. So to suggest people peak at 'x' age is stupid. You can't suggest that, every person is different mentally AND physically and both of these things are required to stay at the top of the game but Simon, jesus christ.

Let it go.
Quote from BlueFlame :Look at Dindo Capello, the guy was in his 40's and still one of the quickest LMP1 drivers going and both Nigel Mansell AND Alain Prost were almost 40 when they win in 1992 and 1993 respectively. So to suggest people peak at 'x' age is stupid. You can't suggest that, every person is different mentally AND physically and both of these things are required to stay at the top of the game but Simon, jesus christ.

Let it go.

and both those years the car was seconds faster then anything else.

I would say given the physical nature of todays car the physical peak would be late 20s and mental peak early 30s, sure people are different thats why i didn't mention exact years.
Quote from Mustafur :and both those years the car was seconds faster then anything else.


They still had to beat their team-mates.

Formula One Season 2012
(1284 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG