Quote from Breizh :

Alright..

SNIP

lol, I love the way you asked for example achievements that would suit LFS and then when I post a whole list of ones that are impossible to call arcade or console like you ignore and just jump on the "thats so arcade" bandwaggon against a different person.

So come on pick faults on the achievements I posted. How are any of them arcade?

Also for everyone else......

1) iRacing has systems that limit what you can race. You need to get a licence (ACHIEVEMENT) to allow racing in some series.
2) While MMOs don't have achievements they allow you to level up or get items (ACHIEVEMENTS)
3) CTRA was the most popular thing to ever happen to LFS.... EVER. It was so popular it was hard to get on the servers at times and they logged more miles than prob ALL the other servers over a similar period. Licences and other stat like things that gave people stuff to aim for (ACHIEVEMENT).

ALL the arguments that if LFS is boring its the wrong game/sim fall apart when you look at CTRA!

Did ANY of you that say NO drive on CTRA and if so why? It was Sooooooooooo arcade! lol

Quote from Crashgate3 :

The driving I mean

Does anyone have any tips from going from a sequential, two-pedal DFP to a G25?

So far I'm really not getting the hang of using the clutch and H-shifter, there's so much going on at once my brain can't cope.

I believe LFS has been tweaked so the last part of clutch travel has no effect but its still wrong.

I use DXTweak to make a small band (about 1/3 travel) in the middle of the pedel the only effective part of the travel. A clutch pedal IRL is the same in that the first part and the last part of travel does nothing.

This will stop miss shifts.

If you don't drive stick IRL it will take some getting used to. It is possible to shift fast and clean. Don't fight the stick once moving just ease forwards and back. For most gates you are just moving forwards or backwards and the spring loading to prefer 3-4 does the rest. Its only 2-3 and 4-5 you need a slight side force.

HTH

Quote from Breizh :

What achievements would you suggest for LFS?

As said before this has come up many times and there are many examples throughout the forum including a few in THIS THREAD!!!!!!!

Simple one is one achievement for each car where you have to beat the baseline time (Not WR but still fast) for each track. Has the simple knockon effect of making people want to race different combos.

Another, win a race with more than x cars where you start at back of the grid.

Another might be to complete a race after an off where car badly damaged. This one could make people want to limp to pits and then try and complete the race instead of bailing then calling for restart or looking for another server.

A few for race length. Say 4 different ones 5, 10, 20 and 50 lap race.

Another might be complete a 10 lap race with X starting race where you make no contact with people.

The list of ideas is endless but if chosen right will stop the limited combo sets that always run, encourage longer races and better racing.

People say "oooooo thats so arcade" but when chosen right archievements are just NOT arcade in the slightest.


Is that enough to show you the benefits?

Quote from Gekkibi :

You can monitor your mileages, lap times, winnings etc... Wasn't these what achievements are all about?

Look, we know you just don't get the idea. Have you ever played a game that has them?

Quote from Neto_r :

i know the user that make the "edited" vob files

and post in this forum


ironic, huh?

ironic as in Alanis Morrisett?

My lappy runs LFS fine at 1280*800 maxed.

Mine has the 512Mb ATI HD2600, 2Gb Ram and a 2.5GHz dual core intel

What is the issue with mouse?

The KB system of old was killed because of the aids it had. Mouse control on the other hand has no aids.

Quote from Gekkibi :

oops, you got in before me

Airbus planes for example have 3 computers sourced from 3 different companies (All who worked off the same spec). The 3 computers look at every input and decide via majority vote about what they allow etc.

Quote from spiderbait90 :

Compare like with like.

Driving a Proton (or similar hatchback) may be easy, but an F1 car, probably not so much.

Flying a Cessna (or similar aircraft) may be easy, but a Eurofighter, probably not so much.

Eurofighter is like an arcade game. It is not stable in the air and actually inpossible to fly without the mass of electronics and computers between the controls and the flight surfaces. These take all the inputs and decides what it thinks the pilot has asked for and does it.

Makes it harder to stuff up tbh. But then you want all that so you have more time to worry about situational awareness instead of flying when in combat!

Quote from MAGGOT :

I really don't see the point. What does getting achievements give you?

They just get logged against your acount that you have done them. Normally there is a broadcast announced on the server you are playing on as you get them. But in they end they don't really give you "anything" apart from the note you have done them.

In the same line what does everyone on the server knowing you have beat your PB and the PB being logged give you. Nothing... still makes you feel good when you have done it though.

They keep things interesting and for most games I have played with them make people step outside the normal popular maps/tracks etc.

Here is a good example of this. Say each track had a target time, not WR time but fast enough its take some doing. This would create 1 achievement for each car which is to beat the target time for each track.

You might still thing "ho hum, so what" but as this and many other threads on the subject have shown that is not the norm. For many it gives goals and targets to aim for and hence encourages people to step outside the favorites.

Want more LX races etc, introduce achievements for them. Just look how interest in the LX ramped a while back when FCV was introduced and there was the LX comp! Same thing, different name.

It really is that simple. Many many games have been made far better by what really is a simple and cheap system to implement!

Last edited by Woz, Sat, 5 Sep 2009 22:09.

Has come up a few times. I take it you mean Achievments/Awards like other game have.

So things like

Win a race starting from the back of grid.
Complete a race with no contact with other cars.
Complete a race on each circuit

From past thread it appears that that have played games that have Achievement systems like the idea, those that have not played such games don't understand. Adds a lot to L4D

I am all for it BTW

I am sure I have a photo taken from inside a 737 sim with the visual running somewhere. I will try and dig out and scan if people are interested. I also have some good pics of a 737 and 747 I was on the site team to install.

I believe aircraft are far easier to simulate at high quality than cars because the lift, drag, thrust interactions of aircraft are well understood.

With a car you have 4 small points of contact that define how the car interacts with the world and they are not as well understood. They are also far more subtle as you have differences in surface, loose gravel, dust and much to simulate and layered on top are all the heat, wear, cool cycles etc.

In contrast an aircraft just interacts with air (apart from take off and landing) and on the whole that is easier to simulate, even effects like microbursts and windsheer and the like.

I did manage to loop a 747 Took it to 35000 feet then pointed striaght down. At 10000 feet started to pull back (Needed feet on the cockpit to pull back) and over she went. Would prob rip the wings off IRL but we didnt need to simulate wing fall off stress even for Level D

Quote from Bose321 :

I suppose my opinion doesn't count? lol.

I have the z5500 and 3 2 1 from Bose.
The Bose is better in everything except the subwoofer is a bit less. Most speakers I've heard are louder, and blah blah. But my Bose sounds more warm, crisper and better, but yeah, They're kinda pricey for most of the people here.
But I suggest buying some cheap thing.

Bose are far from the best when you move into true Hi-Fi systems

I got rid of 10,000 UKP worth of Hi-Fi setup when I left UK but I am sure the Linn Sondek + Lingo + Aro + Troika, Naim 52 + 180 and Ruark speakers I had would have changed your mind there

Quote from ColeusRattus :

You do know that these simulators are primarily used to teach people how to operate the systems of a plane, and NOT to teach them how to fly, do you?

I must point out something here.

A pilot can pass certification in a Level D (Zero hour grade) simulator for say a 737 without ever setting foot in a 737 then go directly to a real plane and legally fly it in a commercial setting!

So while they are not used to primarily teach flying they are used to bring a pilot up to speed on what it feels like to fly these things and how they react in the air etc.

This pic for example is of a Harrier GR7 sim the company I worked for produced. The ball on the legs contained a harrier cockpit in the middle. The visuals were projected to the inside of the ball to give 360deg visuals, mostly peripheral vison but sharp visual where the pilot looked. Head tracking in the pilot helmet. The entire thing could move with serious G forces.

I clocked up 100s of hours in 737 and 747 sims in my time there so I could "test my software" Never got to fly the military stuff as was in the commercial devision.

Even 20 years ago when I worked on this stuff the tech was right up there. Don't confuse instrument and procedural trainers with the real big boy toys simulators 20 years ago 10million UKP would buy you a very nice toy indeed

Trying to take off in a 737 in one of these things where an engine that fails as you rotate while the cockpit fills with smoke because of a simulated electrical fire with motion running is flipping scary to say the least

Slap LFS on a 6DOF motion platform and use head tracker VR goggles and you might be getting closer imho.

As others have said though, LFS can teach the basics such as how to spot dangerous situations and basic control techniques.

For anything more and you have the trouble that won't understand the forces that act on your body and what they are telling you, vital queues in driving. When you have driven in real life you know what you should feel and can overlay them on LFS.

When I drive LFS I constantly evaluate in my head the circle of grip for each tyre and the weight shifts I believe I have instigated with my control inputs. That coupled with FF (G25) allow me to get a feel of what the car is up to.

All this is not something a non-driver can do and why it would be hard to translate into real world when they get behind the wheel.

Sims can teach you but motion is the key. I did 10 years working on flight sims (The type used to train commercial and military pilots) to know a good sim with good "feedback" can teach you a great deal

Quote from dawguk :

It would be VERY easy to introduce a single binary cache file for remote player skins - introducing a DRM-esque system is nonsensical.

That said, what's the point? If people are that bothered about stealing skins, they can even resort to taking screenshots and pilfer images in that fashion. Everybody has the ability, it'll never go away.

So by sinle binary cache you mean a single file that is indexed to show start/end of each skin? Or do you mean a collection of files such as the skin_[x|y] cache we have now?

I take it the skins will be encrypted in this cache to stop extraction based on the file indexes otherwise its is a simple piece of code to extract and re-create the file using the index?

Most cache systems are created for ease/speed of extrtaction of the data, that is the point of a cache. In fact the skin_[x|y] directories are a cache!

To protect the data needs to be encrypted in some way and so we are back to a chunk of code (web and client) that needs to be managed and maintained by the single LFS dev team (which is tiny).

If the data is not in the format that is required by the system then code needs to be created to unpack/transform etc. More code is more testing is more bugs! (20 years at the code face has taught me that)

This is why dds files make sense. Only code required is that too pull down the file from the source.

Is it really an issue? that is my real question?

Quote from pik_d :

So your solution to keeping your super awesome skin that you're proud of and don't want anyone taking is to make it look like a horrible gif from 1997?

"Wow this skin is so good that I better never use it in its full glory!!"

Sigh. No my real solution is not to upload skins to a public space if you don't want it taken. That was an expansion on the idea by ColeusRattus.

Bottom line, if you upload ANYTHING to a public space expect it to be taken and reused. Applies to ANYTHING digital.

If you can't deal with that don't upload it in the first place.

Anyone that comes up with a "good" idea to help reduce the "problem" normally puts forwards something that (A) does not work, (B) makes LFS more hassle and causes server join delays or (C) is DRM related and expect the devs to maintain this DRM to keep their "valuable" skin safe.

Not one single idea ever put forward to date has had ANY merrit when thought through!

Quote from pik_d :

That's silly, people get 512x512 skins by default anyway. What you use wont affect that.

SIGH.

Upload a "crap" 128*128 you have upscaled to 512*512 under one name then your "good" skin on another. When on public servers select the "crap" one and when on private select the "good" one.

People only download the skin you are using... It's NOT rocket science!

I just dont get this. People want the tiny dev team to create a full DRM system for jpg images that they are uploading to a public space.

I thought this was a race sim not a car show room?

Quote from george_tsiros :

ummm... because the other cars have reverse?

MRT is an AutoX car using a bike engine so of course no reverse.

So what. In real life racing of ANY form if you off and get stuck you are on the long walk back to the pits. If you dont want your race to be over don't fall off the track

If you do fall off the track and get stuck just man up and accept your race is done. Everyone is in the same situation so why the problem.

Which real life race series allow the driver to get out and try move their car while the race is on? They don't the stuck car is removed from the track!

Quote from ColeusRattus :

The question weface here is: Does the skin theft warrant the lengthy process of developing an encryption process that would prevent it? I dare say no.

And there are some ways to prevent it already: don't upload a kin you don't want to gte stolen. Or use it only in pw protected races with trusted people, like in league races.

Or use a real low rez one on public servers etc

Quote from Napalm Candy :

And add to Woz, I'm sure that the real MRT5 it easier to drive than the LFS one. I never drove a MRT5, I have a kart, it is not the same ok, but a shifter kart slides a lot of more than MRT5 with slicks and is A LOT OF MORE intuitive and easy to control and push to limit (your limit, not the kart limit )

Too me, and is my personal opinion, the MRT5 is the worst car in LFS. So a little (realistic!) help will be welcome

As you say the MRT is an AutoX car, never designed for the track at all. In AutoX an off means that run is gone.

I am really opposed any push back because as soon as the MRT gets it the crys will come "You can do it in the MRT why not in ?" and then we are back with all car reset.

If anything I believe that if you do enough damage you should be forced to sit out the next race, even if you leave the server and join another. This would make people even more fearful of an off or crash and hence stop the hero T1 stupidity

No reset was the BEST thing added to LFS. It makes people take responsibility for their actions/driving, this never happened before then!

I seriously doubt there are race series that allow this in the rules.

Most of the time when a car comes off the track it is in a place that is not safe. Hence yellow flags come up while the car is removed before going back to full course green.

I have yet to see a race where a driver gets their car stuck and then yellow flags come up so the car can be moved to allow the driver to continue. An example of this would be helpful to prove any race series allows this.

The no reverse gear in the MRT is just like getting stuck in the kitty litter. Your race should be over.

Wan't to complete the race then don't fall off the track

BTW: Before the arguments like "What if someone else puts you off the track?"... So what, that is just racing

Only way to solve this and stop it turning into a support nightmare is to charge for name changes. Something like 5-6ukp per name change will stop floods of requests and generate income for the devs to cover costs.

Bottom line though is that people should just learn to pick a name they are happy to live with in the first place and take responsibility for their actions

This has been thrashed so many times in this forum and EVERY time it has been decided it is not practical and pointless.

It would require a DRM like system and we all know that no DRM works at all. Show a DRM that has not been cracked It only effects users and does not stop theft!

Quote from Dajmin :

What I'd do first of all is stop displaying the name of the skins you're downloading and have LFS automatically rename them to something like skin19476284.dds when it downloads them - that would make it much harder for people to find one they wanted.

Has no effect at all. I can just look at thumbnails of the dds files. 2 seconds searching found this!

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/dds_thumbnail_viewer.html

Quote from Dajmin :

Secondly, I'd put an option on LFSW that would remove skins from the client computers when you leave that server. So you check a box and then LFS deletes your skins when you leave. Sounds simple enough. That means the person would need to minimise LFS while you were online, find it and copy it out in order to steal it. And of course finding it would be harder if we had my first idea added as well.

Very bad idea and here is why...

1) LFS had to implement a cost for downloading skins to cover the bandwidth costs. This will mean repeated downloads every time you connect to a server. Skin download costs will jump a HUGE amount because you will download skins every time! This will NOT be popular.

2) People on slower connections will have to wait longer to join busy servers because they have to re-download skins every time.

3) The LFS server bandwidth requirements go up because skins are no longer cached on clients. So the devs will need bigger backbone connection.

4) If you get a server disconnect you will have to re-download 19 car skins + 19 helmet skins again before you can re-join!

5) I can just Alt-Tab out of LFS or run windowed then use the dds viewer to locate and take the skin while still connected to the server.

As you can see I got around that "solution" in 2 seconds and it would take LFS Client, Server and website code changes to implement. Pointless...

If you want people to be able to see your skin you have to accept it can be taken. Don't want it stolen then don't upload to a public space. Simple as!

Any other solutions? lol

Just watched The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0914798/

Not my normal thing but good film.