Always wanted to express my frustration about this but never did..

Thing that started to put me off from LFS (among other things) is this freakin mouse domination. It's gettin redicolous that in almost all cars (if not all) you get pwned by mouse users!? I thought that real cars are driven with the steering wheel and pedals, but LFS doesn't think so..
It's stupid how precise you can drive with the mouse, and it's stupid how effortless it is. You basicaly move the mouse 2 cm to both sides and that's full lock for ya.. Gas and brake on the mouse seems to have no disadvantage when you do it with real pedals, ON THE CONTRARY, it seems it's better and faster, so what's the point in wheel and pedals, let's cancel them altogether.. Don't say how mouse users can't drive long stints because of the tires, cause they CAN, and besides, i mostly drive short races so that doesn't matters...
I don't know, it seems that anyone can get good with the mouse, just give them free time and perfect racing line display (yes, that new uber realistic option that replaced that arcade thing from hell, the Digital Speedo!)
It seems like Counter strike players can get super fast with the mouse, that's how i feel.. They can drive 24h races by themselves probably, since there's no physical fatigue involved..
Don't get me wrong, i'm perfectly aware that there are people with physical incapabilities and can't use their legs, i'm talking more about the steering, since it's redicolous how precise you can be with the mouse and how fast you can countersteer.
/rant over

I just lift my hat for those who drive well on a mouse.. i can't drive if i don't feel what's happening. i also don't care what the driver that beat me uses. as i still thing every racing game is boring if you use anything else but a FFB wheel... (used a pad before... thought that a lot of games are bad and boring... now i play them all again, after getting a G25. it just makes everything so much more fun)...

i can't believe that driving in lfs can be interesting with a mouse


I am aware of that this post might have not made any sense at all... and neither does this white text... as i don't see what i'm typing lol

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Always wanted to express my frustration about this but never did..

Thing that started to put me off from LFS (among other things) is this freakin mouse domination. It's gettin redicolous that in almost all cars (if not all) you get pwned by mouse users!? I thought that real cars are driven with the steering wheel and pedals, but LFS doesn't think so..
It's stupid how precise you can drive with the mouse, and it's stupid how effortless it is. You basicaly move the mouse 2 cm to both sides and that's full lock for ya.. Gas and brake on the mouse seems to have no disadvantage when you do it with real pedals, ON THE CONTRARY, it seems it's better and faster, so what's the point in wheel and pedals, let's cancel them altogether.. Don't say how mouse users can't drive long stints because of the tires, cause they CAN, and besides, i mostly drive short races so that doesn't matters...
I don't know, it seems that anyone can get good with the mouse, just give them free time and perfect racing line display (yes, that new uber realistic option that replaced that arcade thing from hell, the Digital Speedo!)
It seems like Counter strike players can get super fast with the mouse, that's how i feel.. They can drive 24h races by themselves probably, since there's no physical fatigue involved..
Don't get me wrong, i'm perfectly aware that there are people with physical incapabilities and can't use their legs, i'm talking more about the steering, since it's redicolous how precise you can be with the mouse and how fast you can countersteer.
/rant over

This has been under discussion probably since day 1 when LFS started support wheel

Thing is, you can brake smoother, you can accelerate smoother. They just can't beat that. They can't do perfect left foot braking, it's always on/off for them..
Wheel+pedals is fastest controller combo out there no matter what

Ummmmmmmmm
I like the mouse capacity in this game, and there's a lot of people that cant afford a wheel, or have the space on the desk to put a wheel.

agree, plus it's not that easy to drive fast with a mouse. I was slower in the times i used mouse so at least for me is not a superior controller . It's clear that driving with mouse has its advantages (like uber-fast countersteering) but it has it's disadvantages as well.

kinda off the topic but I don't understand people who use keyboard instead of mouse, in that case mouse is totally superior! .
I think is just great that LFS support the mouse as a driving controller too, since is more precise than a keyboard (but not than a wheel).

Agree with chanoman


Not everyone with mouse can drive better that a wheel

I have dificults to acelerate smooth with keyboard , but the side of the mouse tu turn is great

I tryed others games like Rfactor and GTR 2 and , LFS is wayyyy better thats 2 games in the control of the cars

I think the only people we can blame for that is the dev! Shame on them to allow people who can't pay for a whell enjoy LFS ...

More seriously: The mouse support is a major plus for lfs. I can't count the times i just wish that a game or another include this feature. The way LFS support the mouse is just brilliant and as you said it can "replace" a wheel in a certain way. So when you don't have your wheel and you want to play LFS there is still the possibility to use the mouse and get the steering smoothness. Moreover, if you brake your wheel you still can play (it's, sadly, my case).

Now when you talk about the super steering ability of the mouse you can't say that's a significant advantage. It take a lot of concentration to keep the steering smooth. At the end of a long race i usualy feel tired when i drove with my wheel and it's also the case with my mouse. The bad side of the easyness of the steering is the brake/throttle smoothness inability. So it's quiet well balanced.

Finally, when you see the hotlap and the best drivers of LFS you see that they are always wheel drivers (eg. the winner of the LX month competition who won a wheel was a wheel owner ...). Allowing more people to join the LFS world without the cost of a wheel is a good thing for us but also for LFS.

I have a mouse...and a G25. Why? Because I don't care about times and victories, I simply enjoy driving cars around tracks. And with a mouse, it's not that much of a fun.

Well for a starters I only see that mouse users are dominating primarily low powered fwd and the xrg, all of which don't have much of an issue with putting power down - especially with the setup flexability we have (which I think is actually the primary issue here )

So currently in LFS you can setup your brakes to be 100% safe and you can develop a set were you can put 100% power down before the appex with np (on low powered cars) hence there is no disadvantage for using digital controls for throttle/brake.

I could also contend that alot of wheel owners are fast because they use low amount of deg rotation, low ffb settings and sequential shifting

Quote from breadfan :

I have a mouse...and a G25

I think you will find all g25 owners have a mouse

Quote from Glenn67 :

I think you will find all g25 owners have a mouse

What? No-one uses the wheel and pedals to move the cursor?

Personally, I think the real problem is that things like mouse steering and driving aids give benefits with no balancing downside. Take auto clutch for example. I have no problem with allowing it, but it should be conservative. The way things are now, auto clutch is equivalent to near perfect clutch and accelerator technique. It should be above average at most.

And obviously, you don't have to fight a mouse the way you do a FFB wheel. Maybe they should simulate resistance in the mouse by slightly reducing sensitivity when there is a lot of steering force opposing you, that way you have to jerk the mouse quickly just as you would a wheel to steer at the same rate, reducing accuracy a little. As it is, I feel the only tangible advantage I have over mousers is spin control.

Basically, it isn't right that using better equipment and more realistic control settings places you at a competative disadvantage no matter how skilled you are (not that I am, but I still want a level playing field, and I don't want to have to use arcade like settings and pick up bad habits). Failing that, servers should be able to disallow such control settings.

Pedal + Mouse is the ultimate combo.

Quote from CobraDrifter :

Pedal + Mouse is the ultimate combo.

Huh not really. Pedal + Wheel IS the ultimate combo.

Quote from Riders Motion :

Huh not really. Pedal + Wheel IS the ultimate combo.

Nooo, with mouse you can turn in-game steering wheel faster.
But, with mouse you have no force feedback.

Force feedback mouse would be awesome xD, jumping up and down when crashing someone :P

Quote from Almadiel :

Personally, I think the real problem is that things like mouse steering and driving aids give benefits with no balancing downside. Take auto clutch for example. I have no problem with allowing it, but it should be conservative. The way things are now, auto clutch is equivalent to near perfect clutch and accelerator technique. It should be above average at most.

And obviously, you don't have to fight a mouse the way you do a FFB wheel. Maybe they should simulate resistance in the mouse by slightly reducing sensitivity when there is a lot of steering force opposing you, that way you have to jerk the mouse quickly just as you would a wheel to steer at the same rate, reducing accuracy a little. As it is, I feel the only tangible advantage I have over mousers is spin control.

Basically, it isn't right that using better equipment and more realistic control settings places you at a competative disadvantage no matter how skilled you are (not that I am, but I still want a level playing field, and I don't want to have to use arcade like settings and pick up bad habits). Failing that, servers should be able to disallow such control settings.

Not all wheels have three pedals. I use auto clutch because my wheel has only two pedals and making auto clutch slower than it is wouldn't be fair. I think after improved tyre physics mousers will get hard time controlling the spinning rubber. Since spinning the wheels isn't slow or bad except for overheating but you don't get much problems with that in a sprint race.

You got scared of Pallu's mouse domination?

Well, to be fast with mouse you usually have to have special setup. First reason is trailbraking. And second, but less important in this situation is throttling.
I remember my mouse days and yup I had about the same speed as now. But I don't think that you're going to be "faster" with mouse, it's all about your mind.

One more thing. It's unfair to talk about things like this. I almost can bet that theres no driver that would like to change his mouse for wheel (but Pallu ), because he would enjoy more with wheel. And they can't afford it because of money situation.

My little brother uses a mouse when we play together and he usually endsup kicking my ass. When he switches to his wheel (because he doesn't have enough USB ports to have it all in at the same time) I usually beat him, so I feel Boris' pain.

All the more reason to have a serverside option to disallow certain control methods.

Of course I could've just shot myself in the foot there since for the forseeable future I'll be playing LFS with a 360 joypad, but that's not the point

If you havent got a wheel, mouse is better than keyboard ...

I you think you will be faster if you drive with a mouse, then go and buy one. They are very cheap.

I prefer driving for pleasure with my wheel than being faster with a mouse. People with mouse play a game, people with wheel drive cars, it´s a huge difference in enjoyment

If you can't afford a wheel, WRONG SIM, it's called LIVE for speed you know, you have to give up your real life to be a true LFSer!

Seriously, I understand that some people just can't afford a wheel and yes, I partly blame the devs (read: Scawen) for not implementing a delay for mouse steering but the button control rate feature, which allows smooth acceleration and braking if you know how to set it up.

Steering Wheels and pedals should make you faster, if you are getting beaten by mouse users, then its not the controls that are the problem, its the driver.

I think that mouse-users are faster, but they don't get as much fun as we do, we (wheel-users) can outbrake them by increasing braking force and just brake without locking tyres.

Wheel is better with fighting, and who doesn't like fighting in a race?

In my humble opinion, mouse and keyboard drivers can not be considered real LFS drivers ? Or racers, for that matter.
I try to imagine them sitting in a car with a mousepad and driving the car using mouse.