Removing button clutch would totally @#$^& over even (a few? some?) wheel+pedal owners, because not everyone has a third pedal on their set-up for a clutch.

Quote from GTR_Yuni :

Removing button clutch would totally @#$^& over even (a few? some?) wheel+pedal owners, because not everyone has a third pedal on their set-up for a clutch.

Auto-clutch?

Quote from N I K I :

If something should be removed from LFS, then that should be button clutch!

So how do people with no clutch pedal do normal starts, then ...

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Yes he is slower because he has played with a mouse so much that its become second nature to him. I know his racing history, and I still say things like that, because it makes no difference. I don't want LFS to become a game where the haves get a huge advantage, and the have nots are stuck at the back, just because they can't afford the best equipment, thats what real motorsport is like, and its an aspect that shouldn't be simulated in my opinion.

Playing devils advocate here. LFS also shouldn't be a game where the haves are at a disadvantage and the have nots are at an advantage Considering a usable wheel costs less than some mice, it's not exactly a valid comparison to real racing where it may cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars at the amateur level to have the best equipment. Looking at the hotlap chart for road cars, nearly all of the fastest laps are produced with wheel/button clutch or mouse (I'm looking at blackwood here).

Quote from nesrulz :

@ ATC Quicksilver

Geladric, who is a great driver with the mouse, recieved two wheels as a present from our teammates, ...and he doesn't use it!
He's slower with the wheel and that's the reason he doesn't use it,...

Don't get me wrong but how comes that usually only XFG world records are made with mouse?

Because these people have specialized themself on this specific ("slow") car. You usually don't see these people (not all but most of them) racing online often or racing leagues. They just do their special thing and that's it.

If you check the Hotlapcharts at LFS world then you won't see mouse drivers doing WRs with the GTR cars or single seaters or with most of the other faster cars. Not even in the XFR.

They are fast, true but compared with the talent you need for it they also just have specialized themself. So this is imo not representative for telling that with mouse you're driving faster then with a wheel. It's maybe easier in the XFG, I don't know but def. not in general. I will believe it when I see that most of the WRs are made with mouse but I don't believe that will ever happen.

Quote from Technique :

Considering a usable wheel costs less than some mice, it's not exactly a valid comparison to real racing where it may cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars at the amateur level to have the best equipment.

Considering a cheap caravan costs less than some saloons, your comparison says nothing at all...

Quote from duke_toaster :

So how do people with no clutch pedal do normal starts, then ...

ahh good point there

Quote from bbman :

Considering a cheap caravan costs less than some saloons, your comparison says nothing at all...

Not sure I understand you post (especially since I don't recall what a caravan translates to in american vehicles... ...)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft- ... ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Microsoft Sidewinder:
Current price: $9
Buy it now: $16
Shipping: $13

Sidewinder is perfectly adequate - I was using it in January. It certainly offers more control than keyboard or mouse both in steering and throttle/brake control. I guess I don't really understand your post.

Heheh, funny thread. I use mouse exclusively and will continue to use it just because I don't feel like spending loads of money on a good wheel, I have other priorities at the moment.

What I don't get is why people get mad about it. I've seen things like "zomg they can simulate everything we do with a wheel, it's not fair!!". Yes, I try as hard as I can to roughly simulate the moviments you make naturally with your wheel.

Another thing, you're actually complaining about FFB? Jesus, it's there to make you "feel" the car and help you understand what it's happening and what you can do to go faster. I agree I can steer more quickly, but with what precision? You know how much you're turning (because you are turning it) while I need a visual feedback to know how much I'm turning (in my case, the virtual steering wheel). Reduce FFB or turn it off if you can't turn the wheel.

Also, I have to use conservative setups because there's no way I can brake or accelerate as hard as you can (specially on the more powerful cars). And how do you think I keep 50-70% throttle on a long corner? I don't! I have to put on a higher gear and count on the lack of torque while on full throttle, enter the corner on a higher speed, understeer, wait for the car to get back on the line, accelerate; or keep slaming my gas button to try to simulate a partial throttle - any of them are hardly the ideal thing to do.

And for longer races, you get massive arm pain. You have to keep it steady in only one position for the entire race. I only race in leagues, so it's really rare to have less then 40min of racing. It gets really hard to concentrate when your arms start to fatigate.

I don't want to sound rude or anything, but if you're getting beaten by mouse users, either you can't drive, your setup is completely wrong, you're just slow or the other guy is just fast. All I can say for sure is that you're having a lot more fun than him.

Quote from nesrulz :

+1 for disable mouse from LFS!!!

I've been a mousedriver over a two years by now (at least)...I bought a wheel less than a year ago, takes a lot of practice and time to get used to it after a long time, I almost got used to it but suddenly my pedals gave up, so i gave up. I prefer mouse and I ain't definately one of the fastest guys out there...I'm an avarage driver. After a long and dedicated practice i can't get any faster for reason i blame mouse, it takes alot more concentration with mouse IMO: no half-throttle, no slight-braking, It's all ON/OFF(imagine yourself driving a BF1 ON/OFF throttle and braking) so i see your fustration here but i guess when you put a great mousedriver behind a wheel, he is a great wheeldriver...and all setups won't suit also for mouseys, they need more stable sets(well at least i do ). I didn't know there where drivers who are disturbed by the mousers .removing mouse means removing players from LFS, but that's a price to pay...

Also that means i can't enter leagues i like anymore, most of them are a bit late for us. My livingpartner is sleeping and can't use a wheel then(too much noise)

All that needs to be done is implement a max wheel rotation speed when using the mouse and the only unrealistic advantage of the mouse is gone.

Tbh, I don't get why there are even so many mouse users, since they IMO miss about 50% of what makes LFS so good. People who willingly use the mouse over a FF wheel I don't understand at all, too - they go completely against the principles of LFS by doing that, but whatever, it's their loss.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

I don't want LFS to become a game where the haves get a huge advantage, and the have nots are stuck at the back, just because they can't afford the best equipment

But it's the complete oposite situation, at least in less powered cars.. As you see, even when they get a wheel as a present, they still don't wanna use it, because they can't be as fast as with the mouse, and don't want to use the energy to drive with the wheel.. that's the problem.
I won't go that far and say remove the mouse completely, but it should be made like a keyboard, or physics should be improved, i don't know, something..
As i said, it seems like anyone cen get good with the mouse, with no hassle at all, just memorize all the braking points etc and that's it.. They don't think about the manual blips, how much they pressed the pedals, they don't get sweaty and tired, etc.. The main thing here is, they don't make as much mistakes as with the wheel, since there's not so much fatigue involved and not much physical operations so there's less chance of making a mistake...

Quote :

All that needs to be done is implement a max wheel rotation speed when using the mouse and the only unrealistic advantage of the mouse is gone.

I think that's a great idea. You can turn the wheel unnaturally quick with the mouse... from an immersion or realism POV it's not ideal, but there's no way I'll ever discipline myself to turn at realistic speeds because really I want all the control I can get. It needs to be limited in game.

Noise is a big issue. It's one reason I didn't rush off and buy a wheel years ago.

Quote from Dajmin :

It makes me wonder how well the mouse drivers would do if that steering gauge was removed.

without any problem. i use the steering wheel as reference

I think when LFS starts to get harder you will see the average mouse users dropping down the grid, you will only get the top guys still being able to beat wheel users, and those will be the ones that could adapt to use any type of control setup.

Quote from Technique :

Not sure I understand you post (especially since I don't recall what a caravan translates to in american vehicles... ...)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft- ... ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Microsoft Sidewinder:
Current price: $9
Buy it now: $16
Shipping: $13

Sidewinder is perfectly adequate - I was using it in January. It certainly offers more control than keyboard or mouse both in steering and throttle/brake control. I guess I don't really understand your post.

1. It's used, so of course it's cheap...
2. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Logite ... ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
AND it's new...
3. If you have to compare, don't compare apples and oranges... Read: of course a cheap apple will cost less than a really good quality orange...

Bottomline: you can get a cheap NEW mouse for € 5 or even less, but a cheap wheel will be at least 4 times more expensive... Same at the other extreme: hyped mice will cost about € 100... What's the price tag of a G25? More than double that price...

Quote from nesrulz :

Geladric, who is a great driver with the mouse, recieved two wheels as a present from our teammates, first a Logitech Vibration (which is crap) and then he got a MOMO, yes, a MOMO and he doesn't use it! He's slower with the wheel and that's the reason he doesn't use it, so don't give me that preach talk please...

He mostly drives the XFG. I bet that if he spent a month with the wheel and drove the faster cars, he would start to see the benefits of wheels over mouse. That's my experience anyway when I went from mouse to wheel. Although I'm probably still faster in the XFG using mouse rather than wheel, since I spent almost 2 years exclusively using that combination.

The problem here is that if someone has not wheel and/or clutch pedal is not my fault, but, on the other hand, if they can´t afford a wheel or they don´t have enough space, is not their fault. So, what we can do then? Devs just can´t ignore keyboard/mouse players, but at the same time, steering wheels owners, or even the development of LFS, can´t be harmed because they don´t have that kind of peripherals. So, we have a complex dilemma.
As a hardcore racer, if I was a LFS dev, I´d make LFS only playable with steering wheel and two/three pedals. If you don´t have it, you can´t play. I know that would be hard, but it´s the only way a racing simulator can be enjoyed as a racing simulator. If you don´t have the necessary material for playing a sim, play NFS.
Am I saying this because I have steering wheel? Absolutely not. I can´t afford a Ferrari, and I am not complaining about their prices. I can´t have a penguin at home, and I don´t have one in the fridge, I can´t have sex with a porn star, and I don´t obligate her. So, if I can´t have a steering wheel, I just don´t play LFS

Don´t worry, that´s just my humble opinion, and never will happen

Quote from Boris Lozac :

As i said, it seems like anyone cen get good with the mouse, with no hassle at all, just memorize all the braking points etc and that's it.. They don't think about the manual blips, how much they pressed the pedals, they don't get sweaty and tired, etc.. The main thing here is, they don't make as much mistakes as with the wheel, since there's not so much fatigue involved and not much physical operations so there's less chance of making a mistake...

I'm sorry, clicking like a madman to ALSO do manual blips (why shouldn't they also do that???) or to emulate easing on/off a pedal and having no feedback from the tyres makes you LESS prone to mistakes???

Is everyone smoking something here?

Quote :

So, if I can´t have a steering wheel, I just don´t play LFS

Ahh, but we don't have steering wheels, and we are playing LFS!

In some way I agree with you, well I would if LFS didn't already cater for mouse users. But the devopment work seems to have been mostly done. As Android said, I reckon if you limited the wheel rotation to something akin to the maximum speed someone with a FFB wheel could accomplish, then fair's fair. I'm sure it would be some fairly simple programming.

I used a mouse for 4 years even before I bought a wheel.. It does have it's distinct advantages in a way (and disadvantages).



I used the mouse scroller for up and down shifting (down for upshift and up for down (some reason pressing up on a downshift feels more natural, like in a car with manual auto shifting)). I also used a button for a clutch and no clutch help.



In all theory I had 3 legs for every control right then and there and shifted on the wheell as well! You can also use the steer center reduce that makes it less sensitive steering in the center.



It was pretty easy to feel the differential how it brakes loose from either accel or de-accel and the steering gets to be seemles where you dont think about overcorrecting or counter steering.



The only thing that got me to buy a wheel is wrist cramping with long races and I couldn't truly feel the brakes and push it that hard into turns.. Plus if you get good with the mouse you have less of a tendency to steer into turns while braking (i've found).

Quote from arco :

He mostly drives the XFG. I bet that if he spent a month with the wheel and drove the faster cars, he would start to see the benefits of wheels over mouse. That's my experience anyway when I went from mouse to wheel. Although I'm probably still faster in the XFG using mouse rather than wheel, since I spent almost 2 years exclusively using that combination.

Yes, I also love to drive the XFG.

A "real" racer, gotta have a wheel

It`s like icing on the cake, and jelly to the beans

Btw.

When ever one get`s a new wheel, it takes times to adapt to that ! Even if one have used wheels for years.

bbman, I made a bad analogy I guess I think we can both agree used wheels are affordable. Anyone "should" be able to afford them. I'm not for removing mouse as an option though. I don't think it offers any advantage with steering. Anyone who needs to use opposite lock frequently probably isn't driving correctly Also, anything that enables more users to try out LFS without a owning a wheel is a good thing!

I think the issue is with braking. Anyone who sets up their car so they can achieve max braking force without locking the wheels is probably at an advantage. A wheel user can do this as well - but mouse users have to (I think anyway).

Quote from bbman :

I'm sorry, clicking like a madman to ALSO do manual blips (why shouldn't they also do that???) or to emulate easing on/off a pedal and having no feedback from the tyres makes you LESS prone to mistakes???

Is everyone smoking something here?

But those are just clicks of a button, there's no fatigue involved (i don't count longer races and suposedly wrist pains) , so yes, if you think about it, it's waayyy easier since you are doing less operations compared to wheel driving..
I'm also wondering if people are smoking something here, like they can't understand what i'm trying to say, riiightt..
They can do 10 races in a row (sprint races) and everytime they drive the same, while i'm having a bath in my own sweat after the first race...
I'm not saying disable the mouse, but improve the physics or something so you can't just rape the pedals in ON/OFF and get away with it..