The online racing simulator
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Scawen
Developer
Quote from cargame.nl :Demo is still JOOS - CAR'ing like crazy.. But it seems not important enough to address..?

99% of demo or licensed people have no idea why this error pops up. Like all JOOS and OOS errors.

It may be a good time to consider this. Probably due to being busy on a lot of other things recently, I am not really aware of this issue. Can you explain why it is happening? Sorry for missing any previous explanations, but I'm listening now.

Please can you look at these possibilities, and tell me which one you think is more of a concern, and if there is another case I have not thought of?

1) Obviously it happens when a modified guest joins a non-modified host, and I have not regarded this as a big problem. I suppose in this case it would be nice if there was a more useful message to the guest, suggesting they join with an unmodified version of LFS?

2) And there is the other case when an unmodified guest (could be a new player) joins a modified host. In this case, the host should be private so this does not happen. It is of course very bad if modified hosts are publicly visible and I would have to do something about it.

It's not really easy to distinguish between these two cases but I could think a bit about it.
Scawen
Developer
What happens if you try SHIFT+C in game or the refresh button at the top of the screen in Options - Controls?

Other things to try:

(1) Go to a window (SHIFT+F4) click on another window and back to LFS
(2) Try a different setting for "Input when window is inactive" then (1)

Is there any information about controllers in the deb.log file? You can open it with notepad.

Are there different Thrustmaster drivers? I am trying to understand why it works fine for most people (I think) but some have this problem.
Scawen
Developer
Thanks! Saved to my patch folder. Thumbs up
Scawen
Developer
Quote from jasonmatthews :i was surprised the DSR didn't seem to help at all Shrug

I guess it's because LFS and all other VR programs have an extra stage where they render to a large render target texture which is subsequently distorted onto the final output screen.

Many of these effects you can apply, using driver settings, only affect that final step which outputs to the screen. But the things they affect aren't done in that stage so there is no effect. For example you might be able to force antialiasing, and that would have absolutely no effect whatsoever, because it only affects edges, and there are no edges when the render target texture is distorted to the final screen. Supersamping and other things will also have no effect at all. You can't get any more detail into that render target texture after it has already been drawn.

The only way to affect the VR graphics is to affect the stage where the game is rendering to the render target texture.

If you want to try things in a easier was without the headset on, you could enable the post-processing shader as that goes through a similar process (rendering to a render target which is then transferred to the screen). First edit the post-processing shader to have no effect, then switch it on. Now, any effects you can successfully apply to that will also affect the VR mode version.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from Gutholz :-In some menus you first have to activate the virtual kb and then press the button.
(For example editing F-key binds)
That 'trick' does not work everywhere because sometimes the virtual kb blocks the textfield, making it unreachable to clicking.
(For example join-server dialog)

It is not normally a problem because when you have a VR headset on, the virtual keyboard always appears if there is a text dialog. The virtual keyboard key is really just to enable the virtual keyboard for other uses.

Quote from Gutholz :-When on track, does the virtual kb button have any other use beside typing chat messages? If not, virtual-kb button could also open the chat dialog. (One buttonpress instead of two)

Yes, it's useful for anything that is not bound to a controller button, e.g. car reset or ignition, F9 to F12, clicking any assigned F keys and so on.

There is a separate 'T' assignment to open the chat dialog with a single button press.

Quote from jasonmatthews :Any tips on getting better image quality Scawen on the Vive? I see alot of aliasing in the distance, like a shimmmering effect. I tried settings dsr to maximum, didn't seem to make a difference.

What about clamp/allow options? Any tips?

I don't really have a suggestion at the moment, specially as the antialiasing to the render target texture is fixed at 4x. I have it on my VR notes to allow this to be an option, as in non-VR modes. I guess this might help. I know the problem you are talking about, most particularly on armco barriers because of the stripey appearance.
Scawen
Developer
360 kg bike! That is heavy! Big grin

Countersteering explanation on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

The existing bike simulation in LFS works by the user "setting the lean" with the mouse or wheel. The bike then does the necessary physical steering to get to that lean. So it's a physically simulated bike but obviously doesn't actually feel like being on a bike. It has a similarity with controlling a real bike because in real life we do get a bike round a corner by, through the bars, "setting the lean" appropriate for the current speed to achieve the required turn radius. There's quite a bit of work to be done on the LFS simulation and it's not a high priority yet but I would like to release it at some point even if it will never seem as convincing as car driving. Left / right / front / back body movement could be done using an analogue stick while another stick controls the lean angle. Body movement would not be necessary to ride but would be used to get the best lateral or longitudinal performance from the bike.
Scawen
Developer
Yes, it is truly awful that the OVRServer_x64.exe is always running and connected to facebook servers, even while the Rift is not connected, and there is no way to exit from the software or stop it running when your computer starts.

Palmer Luckey has definitely made mistakes. Although I think he is a nice person at heart, it's not good that he has mocked people for trying to get their DK2 working which can be problematic due to bugs in the Oculus software.
Scawen
Developer
It's an old discussion that always brings up arguments whenever it appears, but the main force to make a bike turn is applied through the bars. For example, to turn right, push on your right hand or pull on the left. This momentarily makes the wheel turn left. This has two effects that make the bike lean to the right. A gyroscopic effect that instantly causes a bit of lean to the right, and also the steering effect of the rubber on the ground aiming left also makes the bike lean to the right. Now, the leaning of the bike itself (to the right) applies a gyroscopic effect that makes the bars turn right.

So, quite strangely, but this is very easy to feel, when you push the bars left the bike leans right and the bars turn to the right. It's very easy to feel, just get on a bike, ride along, hold the bar with one hand. Do not move your body at all relative to the bike, and just push forward or backward gently with the hand that is on the bar.

This applied force can actually be quite hard on a medium to large motorbike. You can give it a serious push forward on the right bar to make the bike lean rapidly to the right, and another good push on the left to flick the bike back over to the left. This comes with experience though so please be careful. Smile You can test it with a pedal bike but the force to apply is quite small.

The positioning of the body left and right in road racing is mainly to allow the centre of gravity to be further leaned without parts of the bike scraping on the ground. Also when the lean isn't quite so extreme, some lateral body movement can help to keep the centre of gravity above the contact point (which moves left and right if you have wide tyres). [EDIT: By "above" in the previous sentence I don't mean vertically above, but in the direction of the bike's vertical axis.] With considerable lean the bike is happier to sit at a given angle with the rider moved left or right a bit but this body movement is not the principle force that makes the bike lean in the first place.
Last edited by Scawen, .
Scawen
Developer
Try setting the max and min "range" settings within the range you want to use.
Scawen
Developer
They were originally used for reflections before the new shaders which use a generated reflection based on the sky.

Those files are not supplied with the new full versions.
Scawen
Developer
Thanks, some USA exposure would be helpful. Smile

The "one controller only" setup option and the "select audio device" are still here on my immediate list. I'm just having a less pressured two weeks, not rushing anything (and had other things to sort out). I'll report back if it's working or failing, hopefully this week. If it works OK I'll release a test patch with the updates.
Scawen
Developer
As a test I've made a slight change to the first text at www.lfs.net so it doesn't show that picture including the Scirocco. I've tried to make the text a little more compact as well so the news item below is more likely to be seen.
Scawen
Developer
Yes, we announced it but did not release it because we didn't like the way the car had to be set up. It showed up flaws in the tyre physics. I went into a massive push to sort out the tyre physics but it turned out more difficult the more I found out about it as the months went by. That time was also at the end of a period of many years of very hard work. We also moved house to a different part of the country after our children were born and work ended up slowing, except for vital updates.

Eventually I got into cross country cycling and stopped smoking which is good because I am healthier and will hopefully live longer. The VR support was a boost for us and now I'm well beyond stage 1 of my cycling hobby. I'm able to work a lot and still do a few rides each week. I've been trying to get this stage of VR development sorted so I can get back to the tyre physics which will allow more types of vehicle to be simulated.

EDIT: Removed the final part, the explanation is above. We made some decisions that weren't the best but I believe we are getting back on track. The new tyre physics will really help, along with new content.
Last edited by Scawen, .
Scawen
Developer
Which version are you using? As there is no "recalibrate axes" button in 0.6P (the latest version).
Scawen
Developer
That's because my email was being spammed by reported posts of demo users asking about how to set up cruise servers. A cruise server isn't much good without a layout. So I just copy and pasted this answer as a reply to some of the reported posts. There are a lot of reported posts and I can't spend a really long time on each one, if I want to get any actual work done.
Scawen
Developer
I think he's saying he can't click buttons, using the mouse.

Very strange but I'd suggest going into a window (SHIFT+F4) and see if clicking works then.

If so then it should work if you try borderless window full screen mode (SHIFT+F11).

Please let us know if that fixes it and which version of Windows you are using.
Scawen
Developer
From http://www.circuit.fi/ who are running a TV series...

Episode 4 with English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRfi8EnCsvw
Scawen
Developer
Quote from Whiskey :You can now assign Esc key to a button, the confirmation is to avoid exiting by just checking that button.

Even before the patch I had on my notes to disable this warning if the actual ESC key is pressed. But it was too close to patch day, and I knew there would be a complication, because the assigned buttons do a fake key press. Do you think it would be fine if the warning only came up if an assigned controller button to ESC was pressed, and not the real key? It is extremely annoying when you are jumped out of that screen by mistakenly pressing the controller button assigned to ESC, so there is a good reason for this feature.

Quote from Ripley :There's either something weird in my DFGT's detection, or it's me who hasn't got it clear yet.

It shows a 4th axis as "clutch", but DFGT only has 2 pedals, and 3 axis (steer, throttle and brake, all correctly detected).
Where does this extra axis come from?

Your drivers are (falsely?) reporting the existence of at least one slider axis so it has the Slider 1 that, on some other Logitech wheels, is used for a clutch axis. It would be possible to specifically exclude this for that specific wheel. But it's not really a problem, I think. You can unassign that axis if it annoys you. Smile

Quote from bfedorov91 :Got LFS working on the Vive! Thanks for supporting it! I just had one problem.. I often notice something like double vision when I move my head. Is it normal? I do not have any tracking issues with my vive in any games. The game is running at 90 fps too.

I don't know why you are seeing double vision effect. Normally when I have seen something like that, it was in a debug version or in some kind of view that caused the frame rate to go lower or half (e.g. in SHIFT+U mode, looking at the whole world). Is it any different if SteamVR is running or not running?

Quote from englishlord :I tried this with my G27. It detected it after I hit refresh but the wheel was near impossible to move.

As Whiskey said, with Logitech wheels you need to refocus LFS once after plugging in the wheel, e.g. with ALT+TAB or by clicking on another window and back to LFS. Annoying but at least you don't need to restart LFS.

Quote from englishlord :One thing that would be nice would be the ability to calibrate a wheel, whilst on a server, without having to join first. Joining with an uncalibrated wheel has always caused it to go into a motorised spasm before shift + o is quickly entered. If you go to options when spectating, it is reading the input of the spectated car.

This should be fine now. It was fixed so when you are in the controls screen you see your own axes, not those of the viewed car.
Last edited by Scawen, .
Scawen
Developer
Thanks, it seems quite clear now. It would be nice to stick with a single installation of LFS otherwise it's kind of wasteful.

So it looks like the basic things you need are:

1) Easy way to set up ONE wheel in an instance of LFS where there are actually several wheels connected to the computer. Basically selecting that device with a click or two after starting LFS and that could do a 'refresh' but ignore all the other controllers, not creating a massive list of axes and buttons.

2) A way to select the audio output device.

Those are the most important things. Then the next thing is:

3) A way for LFS to try to centre the wheel so it is ready at the start of a race or after a car reset.

After that there are refinements that would be nice but may be difficult and are not essential:

4) Some way to select a player or start up LFS with command line options that select the screen, wheel and speakers all in one.

For now I will just forget about number 4, assuming that you will be happy enough just being able to easily select the wheel device and audio device with the minimum amount of messing around after starting each instance of LFS. And I assume that you are happy enough with the screen setup, though I don't really know how you do that. Is it like one massive desktop, and you slide LFS across to the appropriate monitor then press SHIFT+F11?
Scawen
Developer
You need to buy a license, then you can use layouts.

The Demo is just a "demonstration" of LFS, so you can decide if you want to buy a license.
Scawen
Developer
You need to buy a license, then you can use layouts.

The Demo is just a "demonstration" of LFS, so you can decide if you want to buy a license.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from SimulatorRental.com :Once the Audio and Wheel selection is setup right, and I get the trailer built to haul the simulators around, I can finally start doing simulator events. The
image is of the current trailer concept that I hope the trailer builder can actually build.

I want to help and hope that I can do something at some point this week.

For now, I have a few questions but it's going a bit off topic so I've started a new thread: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/89440
Input / output device selection for multiple LFS instances
Scawen
Developer
This thread is to discuss SimulatorRental.com's requests as described on the patch thread:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1907371#post1907371

The issue is unusual - using a single computer for multiple instances of LFS with their own input and output devices.

Each instance of LFS needs to be able to select its graphics and audio device and its force feedback input device.

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :What I was envisioning is if you clicked the FF device button, it would automatically select the 4 to 6 axis that go with it. Less button pushing. Especially when I have to setup 8 to 24 wheels.

OK, my first question is, do you have separate installations of Live for Speed on the single computer? A separate installation that is intended to connect to its required devices?

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :Heck the button could be larger, and be a part of, or at least use the text from, the devices found list as well. I really wish I could go by serial number on the device so I knew what device went with what physical wheel with out having to turn each wheel... then maybe each driver name in the game could be "Saved" with a wheel memorized too it. So I just have to load a game with driver name Machine 1 Machine 2... etc... then have the wheel, monitor, and audio output device saved to it. Then if I lose power or system needs to be rebooted in the middle of a 2 hour event I do not have to spend a half hour setting it all back up again.

I understand this can be complicated / annoying to set up the first time, but it's not clear to me why you need to set it up again after a restart. Are the input devices not reported in the same order each time the computer starts? So that each instance of LFS can simply load its previously assigned axes and buttons?

Or is the problem that you don't know which ones will be plugged in, and it can be different every time?

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :REALLY need something with the audio device selection. Smile But that can wait until after the VR stuff... although it might help when selecting VR audio output.

I'll look into this audio device selection in the next few days. Hopefully will know more by Wednesday. I'm busy sorting out quite a few things at the moment.

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :Can the wheel be programed to automatically return to TRUE center?

After a crash that needs to reset the car, or reset the race, kids often have the wheel rotated 360 degrees when they start, thinking the wheel is straight on, but its not.. sot hey go slamming sideways into the wall or other cars. This may also be required for VR!!! as someone may have the wheel upside down but it might feel right with out looking at it.

So, maybe something like...

If race restarts - wheel to center
If car resets - wheel to center

Interesting, I agree a gently centering wheel would be useful.

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :Once the Audio and Wheel selection is setup right, and I get the trailer built to haul the simulators around, I can finally start doing simulator events. The image is of the current trailer concept that I hope the trailer builder can actually build.

Looks good. Smile
Scawen
Developer
Yes, it does seem to make sense that LFS could automatically connect the FF device to the device whose axis is selected for steering. Then there would be no need for the FF device option. I've added this to my notes. If anyone can think of a case where this would not work, please let me know.
Scawen
Developer
That is what it should do. Hopefully you found it more interesting than the other one. Smile
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