Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

NASCAR is to blame for the whole incident, if they had sorted Brad out themselfs then the drivers wouldn't feel the need to do it on the track. I think Carl is a top bloke, he wouldn't go out to hurt anyone on purpose, but he has a moral code and obviously wanted to teach Brad a lesson for being such an ****. Also NASCAR should never have switched to those rear wings, they must have known it would cause the cars to flip over if they got turned, unless they just thought it looked cool and didn't actually do any testing on it.

+1. Any chains of intentional wrecking is completely NASCAR's fault and has always been NASCAR's fault. This trend has been going on far enough:
Hmeil v. Jarrett
Gordon v. Kenseth
Newman v. Montoya
Gilliland v. Montoya
Hamlin v. Keselowski

It's just unfortunate that it has to take an incident like this to actually slap NASCAR in the face. Maybe this time they will do something about all of these shenanigans instead of being complete pussies.

But knowing NASCAR I dont think they'll do much...

After thinking for a while, I'm starting to empathize with Carl more. Brad definitely was just pushing everyone too far and it was just a matter of time before an incident like this would happen. If it had not been Carl who'd done it, it would have probably been Hamlin or someone else in the near future.

NASCAR has a chance now...to put it's foot down on this subject once and for all...I just hope they dont let this chance slip away

Quote from tristancliffe :

(and lower skill of the drivers).

I dont think skill really has much to do with it. If presented with the limitations of the machine (in terms of generating G-Forces that is), there isn't anything anyone can really do about that. Schumacher or Senna wouldn't necessarily be able to pull more Gs from the IndyCars compared to IndyCar drivers. Mansell and Piquet were both in IndyCars and they weren't necessarily achieving blinding speed in them. Heck, after Mansell's stellar rookie season in CART, he started to fade and became as accident prone as Andretti in F1.

The fact that there hasnt been any successful F1 driver crossovers to IndyCar (and I'm talking about the IndyCar we know today...which started in 1996 compared to old CART or ChampCar) speaks to that as well. We'll see how Sato does in the new IndyCar.

Also, greater G-Forces doesn't necessarily translate into more skill. It's a tendency...but not necessarily a rule. I mean Rally drivers experience less Gs than F1 drivers yet Rally drivers have much more driving skill over F1. Same applies to Touring Car, relatively slow series...but not necessarily lesser in skill compared to GT or even open wheel

Quote from SidiousX :

I agree that it was a stupid move, but they didn't suspend Hamlin for intentionally wrecking Keslowski, or Montoya intentionally wrecking Stewart in the Homestead race.

And they should have. Remember Shane Hmeil? Does anyone remember the horrible amounts of complete bullsh*t that he did and NASCAR didn't do crap? NASCAR is a completely pussy when it comes to these drivers and they seriously need to grow a pair.

Quote from SidiousX :

It's all just anger caused by close racing.

Emotion has no place on the track especially anger. It's what turns any sport into a stupid reality show. I mean...emotion can be interesting but more often then not it just turns NASCAR into a farce.

Quote from SidiousX :

The same thing could have happened in the Hamlin/Keslowski incident as well, it's just a matter of how things turned out. In the end, everybody that does it is pushing quarterpanels, what happens after that is completely different.

Exactly...which is why the Hamlin incident is just as bad as this incident (imho). NASCAR is sometimes more about the bickering rivalry and resulting pit maneuvers instead of racing for the sake of racing

Rubbin is racing...but WRECKING isn't. This isn't demolition derby and NASCAR would be wise to make sure that both the drivers and the audiences know the difference between Rubbin and wrecking.

Park Edwards...and the next time Brad (or anybody else for that matter) does something as bad as Edwards? Park him (them) as well. NASCAR needs to grow some balls in this matter and do their job.

Last edited by lizardfolk, Tue 9 Mar 2010, 09:17.

It looks great Falcon Good luck

Sometimes...I dream about cheese

Quote from Forbin :

An unwillingness to make use of one's mental faculties does not make a person stupid? You don't necessarily have to be smart to get into college, you know. I met a lot of dumb kids in my 4 years.

I know that college can have very dumb kids. But for me...the definition of "stupid" means that the person doesnt have the ability to process beyond a certain level of comprehension. Regardless if the individual has the willingness to comprehend beyond a certain level. Not willing to comprehend beyond a certain level on a certain subject is more an effect of extreme apathy than a physiological inability (or poor mental development (education)).

Quote from Forbin :

As for the oval racing, I never said it was easy, I said it was boring. That's not a false statement of fact, like saying racing requires no effort, just an opinion.

That actually wasnt targeted at you (sorry for any miscommunication). And yes, I do realize that an opinion that oval racing's boring is different from someone making a statement that oval racing takes 0 skill (or saying that racing takes no physical effort).

Last edited by lizardfolk, Fri 5 Mar 2010, 06:34.

Quote from Forbin :

The reason I oppose your generalization is this: whenever I tell friends/acquaintances/coworkers I race and describe the physical exertion involved, comments range from an understanding nod, to further questions about exercises I do. I've never gotten a blank stare or an uninterested apathetic "you just sit there on the bike."

The age range of these people goes from about 22 to 65 years, with no kind of pattern to the questions based on age. The interest is universal.

Well if I had told someone that I was into bike racing that would have automatically made me "cool" and thus people would pay much more attention.

People all around me are either really really into the street racing culture (and drifting) or just jaded against motorsports in general. So when I describe professional motor racing like IndyCar, F1, NASCAR, ALMS, w/e...I usually get that said blank stare and a "you just sit in a car" statement. HOWEVER, when I talk to people outside of my college (older about from 26-40) people are generally much more open minded and much more willing to use their intelligence.

I even had a long conversation about the stock car racing in the Syracuse area with a Cornell Physics professor.

Maybe just the people I know within my college (and the Cornell students) just suck. I'm willing to admit that. But just because they dont make that common sense connection doesnt automatically make them stupid. They might be narcissistic, angsty, judgmental bastards...but they aren't necessarily stupid. But it is also my experience that this kind of narcissistic judgmental attitude is also shared by oval bashers So I'm not exactly that far away from home am i...

Quote from legoflamb :

I think the subject in question is lowered standards will only give rise to even lower standards. In this case standards of common sense.

Yes you hit it right on the mark. And this cycle is continuing based on the current upcoming generation. Doesn't mean the generation is getting stupider (although that can be the case, it isnt necessarily the case)

Quote from blackbird04217 :

That said, there is nothing common sense about that statement, he is making an opinion, or a completely absurd statement that is meaningless; Hannah Montana and Racing have less to do than Apples and Oranges (which are at least both fruits or even food for that matter). But this statement has no fact or meaning - therefor commonsense really can't apply. Least I think so. Now if he mentioned something like: "Racing is pointless, cars are driving around and getting nowhere just wasting our resources" That actually contains some common sense that racing involves using resources; oil/gas etc... But the other side could then argue back that racing advances automotive (and other industries) technologies, and provides entertainment. The debate can go on, but facts need to be used to back things up; How useless is Hannah Montana? Not very. There are millions of fans that are; entertained and addicted/stuck on watching/listening to her media outlets. That is not meaningless, meaningless to me - yes, because I am not a fan of that entertainment.

Exactly, thanks for pointing out the obvious but the fact that the statement lacks any common sense is precisely the point. That statement wasn't made by an inbreed redneck. It was made by a well educated Ivy League Graduate Student who is studying Advanced Chemstry (in fact I'd say he's smarter than most...including me)

Quote from Forbin :

Fundies of all types are unintelligent, judgmental, and angsty.

Judgmental? Yes. Angsty? Sure. But that doesnt make him necessarily stupid. If he wouldn't have the ability to comprehend why racing is physically exhausting due to G-Forces or why racing can be beneficial then he would be stupid. He has the ability to comprehend but he chooses not to exercise that ability. That's the difference between someone who is stupid and someone who just has extreme apathy. It might result in the same idiotic comment. But just brushing it off by saying "the person is just too dumb" is lazy. I mean all this is what extreme apathy does to people and extreme apathy does define our generation (there's sociology articles on it if you care...but you probably dont and that in itself is already a example of what i'm saying). But hey, if you want to be lazy and simplify it to "oh he's just stupid" go right ahead.

EDIT: Now all this is extremely fascinating...but lets put this thread back to the G Force discussion and if you seriously want to continue why dont you just make a sociology thread and I'll be happy to join in.

Last edited by lizardfolk, Fri 5 Mar 2010, 05:09.

Quote from Forbin :

Sounds like you just need smarter, less judgemental, less angsty friends.

I dont know what is with you and you insisting that people not making common sense connections are stupid. But w/e i guess If you want to mistake extreme apathy with stupidity than that's your business.

Also...meet people that are not judgmental? Here in the east coast? Among Ivy Leagues and "intellectuals"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one

Not really sure if you have noticed or not but our generation (teens and very early adulthood) is very narcissistic. Which inherently makes us very "stupid" about things to try (key word: try) to be funny, edgy, and or intelligent (i.e. DUH ANY RETARD CAN RACE OVALS DUH)

Heck...I've even met someone who stated that "racing is as important as Hannah Montana". (And yes he was an fundamentalist environmentalist and he was trying to be funny). I'm NOT making that up. Pissed the hell out of me. I mean nvm the large amounts of technology that was pushed and developed from motorsports :rolleyes: Common sense missing in that statement? Yeah...does that belief make him stupid? Not necessarily. He could be apathetic to the point where he doesnt care to apply logic or learn more about that subject. I mean how many times have you tried to explain something to someone and their response was "I dont care"? Happens quite often where I'm at talking to other members of my generation (key words members of MY GENERATION. The older generation might be completely different)

Last edited by lizardfolk, Thu 4 Mar 2010, 21:47.

Quote from JackDaMaster :

GUESS WHAT GUYS

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81849

MILKA IS BACK

GOD HELP US

Graham Rahal and Robert Doornbos both are out of a ride for this year....HOW DID MILKA BEAT THOSE TWO TO THE RIDE!!!!!????

Quote from tristancliffe :

As in an RSI style injury? Sure - playing the piano, in terms of physical stance and movement, is very similar to typing on a computer. I've only fiddled with pianos now and again, and it seems quite obvious to me that using them 'wrong' could result in a form of injury.

Actually in terms of physical stance and movement it's very different from typing on the keyboard. Especially since touch matters so much on the piano that it requires a completely different mechanic while they keyboard is simple to the point where everyone's typing is relatively the same.

Watch Glenn Gould then watch Arthur Rubinstein and you'll see the difference.

But this is a fantastic example. The fact that you already compared typing to playing the piano just because both require you hitting the keys is such rudimentary thinking. Does it mean you are stupid? No. It just means you dont really care.

Here's another article that covers the simple differences between typing and playing. http://carolhung.com/2009/03/2 ... ng-piano-or-typing-piano/

Quote from tristancliffe :

The point is that an understanding maths and science will enhance your enjoyment of everyday life. It will enhance your safety on the road (e.g. understanding how objects accelerate, decelerate, change direction, or how parallax works etc). It will make you enjoy the wonder of a "maple 'helicopter' seed" falling to the floor. You'll enjoy motorsport more. You'll be able to hang your washing out more efficiently. Just knowing that liquids are, essentially, imcompressible will make you better at braking. And the best thing is, with an understanding of these things even at the 12 year old school level, you don't actually have to apply any effort. It'll be pretty obvious. And you'll want to learn more (e.g. see something that seems interesting, and you'll look it up or research it - or, as the current generation seem to do, just go on Wikimadeitupedia). The world is a magical place, but even more so when you have the faintest idea why or what's causing what you see.

That's all well and good but our generation is already wired to not make "common sense" connections if we have no interest in the subject. There are millions of people who couldn't care less about motorsports or how a car works and thus very basic and simple concept will elude them about this subject. In fact, I know some who are deliberately ignorant about it because they believe motorsports are harmful.

Fact is, yes, it's pretty obvious. But when you are apathetic to oblivion you even ignore the obvious. Again...apathy defines out generation

(of course...this could just be the people I'm around...but I've known some people outside of the states that act the exact same way)

Last edited by lizardfolk, Thu 4 Mar 2010, 13:41.

Quote from CARRERA GT :

Who will beat that number?

I guess it has to be me, +30000.

Any one else :bump:

+

Quote from squidhead :

Not entirely correct.
Wangan Midnight, is a 26 episode series, about street racers, with no drifting involved. It's quite good up until the mid of the season, where the racing is not the main focus, but the people and the sacrifices they make to be the fastest one on Wangan Sen (a Yokohama to Ichikawa expressway). After the mid of the season the series are above average, and I'd say it's worth a watch.

Never heard of that future formula 1 anime though.

I dont like anything street racing related. So that's also a no for me

Apathy defines our generation. Therefore, even if a person is incredibly intelligent. Subjects that the person "could not care less about" will have close to 0 thought on it. Therefore seemingly "common sense" connections (such as how G Force affects the drivers) will be largely ignored.

Sure...stupid people wont be able to make that connection on their own. But not everybody who doesnt make that connection are stupid. Again, all the Ivy Leagues i've met had no idea that G Forces actually makes the race car driver's job much more physical. Granted, when I explained that to them they were like "oh...ok makes sense" and just walked away. They didnt make that connection before because they were apathetic to the point where they wouldn't have the slightest thought about the subject but not because they were stupid.

I'll give another example, playing piano the wrong way can actually injure you to the point where you wont be able to play piano again for a long period of time (or even for the rest of your life.) Sometimes in extreme situations you'll lose the ability to use your hand effectively (Schumann, Flesher, etc.) That's "common sense" to musicians cause of the way the piano contorts the hand (this is also taught in music class which is mandatory for a lot of schools i went to)...did you know that before? Probably not. Does that make you stupid? No...not necessarily. Did you care about this making this connection? Likely not either.

Apathy defines and destroys our generation.

Quote from Forbin :

Basic Physics is taught in public school, or at least it is where I'm from. Same for Trig.

Anyone who has ever driven a car, been on a rollercoaster, or flown in an airplane understands G's.

Dont know... G Forces might be "common sense" but I still know people who have no idea that G Forces effect the race car the way it does (which is why most people I know here dont consider racing an actual "sport")

And I'm currently living in the East Coast, going to school there as well as taking a few classes from an Ivy League college (Cornell).

Even the Ivy leagues I know had no idea that G Forces had that great of an effect on race car drivers. Had I been talking about jet pilots they would have been like "no sh*t". But they figured that race car drivers just "feel a slightly heavier" and that's it...and it isn't enough to cause any physical exertion on the driver...

So no...while theoretically it is common sense...it doesnt necessarily means that people would make that connection (and they usually dont actually)

Last edited by lizardfolk, Thu 4 Mar 2010, 03:38.

Quote from PMD9409 :

What do you guys consider good racing? You say you want no cautions so the field sort of spreads out so you see who the true winner should be (and not have things for show), but at the same time you complain you want closer/better racing. It's hypocritical. Sometimes you can't have both.

I want a middle ground. I dont want a caution every 20 laps but at the same time I also dont want 200 laps of racing without a single caution.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Fixed both.

Well...Danica has danicamania...I'm sure loads of people care even if it's not warranted. Simona is not going to attract any attention much like Sarah Fisher unless she does very well in IndyCar (i.e. wins more than 1 races)

I've always found IndyCar boring on Kentucky and Cali. And ChampCar was fantastic at Eurospeedway. So.....

Quote from PMD9409 :

I just watched a video to see what you are saying. Basically the cars produced less power which made the racing closer. I'd rather watch an Indycar at Richmond where you can't just put a brick on the throttle.

You cant do that even with ChampCar in 2001. And Rockingham's too tight for that anyways.

Quote from TFalke55 :

about china. I read months ago that china is going to build a 1,5 - 2 mile oval for Indy Car races. However, why don't they go to Phasaki (RSA), Rockingham (GBR) and Eurospeedway (DEU)? With Motegi they already have one of the four outa-north-amarican racing ovals.

How about we go to all of them That would be my dream schedule. Getting rid of some boring ovals in the US and replacing them with ovals outside of US.

Quote from TFalke55 :

About the girls. It's going to be interesting how competing Beatriz (BRA) and De Silvestro (SWI) are. De Silvestro already marked something by being faster then Danica at Barber Testings

No one's going to care because she isnt as hot as danica

Quote from JackDaMaster :

Honestly, thats a bad example because its a road course (well, street). NASCAR has local cautions on road courses. (and occasionally on ovals)

Have you seen the 09 Montreal race? Steven Wallace spun at the back of the field and NASCAR kept pulling out cautions because of it.

Quote from JackDaMaster :

Besides the worst one for competition cautions was CORR, where there was a mandatory one in the middle of every race.

Haven't watched CORR since I was a kid. Was CORR really like that? I know that SCORE should be better.

Quote from count.bazley :

In what way? I meant things like throwing random debris cautions and the like and trying to fabricate a close finish in every race. It gets boring quick. I prefer IndyCar and F1 where the guys running the show aren't afraid to have someone dominate a race once in a while.

Agreed, NASCAR does throw way too many cautions. I mean take a look at how the Canadian NASCAR does it's racing. Not BS cautions. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa1il1GGzsA) and they aren't afraid to give out local cautions like a normal series.

If Canadian NASCAR can do it. There is no excuse why regular NASCAR cant. There's even races when they let a wreck go without a caution on some of the ovals

It appears that there's only 2 manufactures? While the SEATs and Hondas are independent?

The more this season is shaping up the more I want to switch over from a NASCAR fan to an IndyCar fan.

There's a very very interesting line up for this year's IndyCar that will see a few more female drivers apart from Danica Patrick and Sarah Fisher.

I also love how international this season is. I mean IndyCar is essentially "american" racing but there's only 4 full time American drivers full time. The new schedule will also include Brazil. Hopefully we can see Indy in Europe or China in the future
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2 ... son#Team_and_Driver_Chart

The new Sao Paolo track is better now....I mean...it still looks a little mickey mouse. But that doesnt mean the racing has to be bad.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi ... /commons/7/70/Anhembi.svg

I mean the San Jose street track is very simple and yet it has better racing than Valencia. This Sao Paolo track reminds me of San Jose and that's a good thing. One thing I cant understand tho is why they cant just go to Interlagos....but w/e.

Indy is making all the right decisions. While moving away from an all oval schedule but not completely getting rid of ovals and expanding outside of the US to Canada and Brazil. But the best thing this year...NO MILKA DUNO!!!!!! She dragged the respectability of the indy field down so much even with a part time schedule

Quote from PMD9409 :

I believe the Indy cars were hitting near 9G's at Talladega, the main reason they don't race there.

I heard that a lot of superspeedways are actually banned by IndyCar

Quote from JJ72 :

Cyber formula was very big when I was a kid, there's a schumacher tribute character in it too! It went crazy apeshit with drifting and brain controlling cars in the later part but still a very cool anime, don't expect realism though, it features talking onboard computers, turbo boosters and cars doing 600+kph.

I guess I can stand a bit of drift. I kinda wondered about the writing...oh well, I guess I'll check out Cyber formula. Not like there any other professional racing anime anyways and IGPX doesnt count

Has anybody ever watched this anime?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDtJfNnZm84

I just recently found out about it and it seems like a motorsports anime that's not about drifting for once. It seems kinda good. Is it worth tracking down?

PS There's 4 spinoff/sequel series on this plus 10 video games ....WHY DIDNT I KNOW ABOUT THIS!!! lol