Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Although your point is correct, oil can burn anyway and result in theblue smoke as a result of a cruddy engine, but a while back my dad had a Ford Escort ( illepall) and that had a bit of blue smoke on acceleration, but it didnt overheat .... just burns oil... like ..... the buring fire .... on which I will ..... place .... myself .... on hvaing to ..... keep explaining .... myself ..... argh!

when the car overheats it usually brings series of issues.

Melt head gasket(collant in cylinders)black smoke i think, never saw it happen in person
Detonation(damaged piston rings)Starts burning oil blue smoke

Am just saying that its highly likely something will come out the exhaust if your car is over heating, especially in a racing environment

if an engine starts over heating it could start burning oil which would cause smoke to come out exhaust.

Its hard to play devil's Advocate on this forum. That part always seems to go over people's head. Last time i got called a redneck out of nowhere.

the computation is wrong the didn't spend 9 dollars each.

Quote from kew0914 :

There are good & bad about the tuning thing.

If we could tune we need cooling problems, engine break etc in the physics too.

if you can get max boost on the turbo all day long without breaking the engine and no difference in fuel consumtions, everybody will have big turbos(even though they hate em).

even if LFS creators can make the game like that it will be too maniac.

There are people who don't like games to be too professional.

I think we should be able to chg radiator & brake duct size or so

but i am not sure about the tuning thing.


Sorry for my poor english.

you might of missed it but i did say a realistic engine damage model would need to be put in.

Quote :

If you had the ability to chase down an XRT with a GTi because you could tune it, naturally people would then tune the hell out of their XRTs and only someone with a tuned XRT (or maybe LX6) could actually catch them. Bingo. Back to square one. Who would be running a stock XRT against a GTi if they had the option to tune the XRT? As if the NFS/F&F/GT crews would even bother with stock cars anymore...you'd have more servers full of souped-up XRTs going dorifto banzai than you would oval servers full of BF1s
If everyone ended up racing the tuned cars and not the stockers (which would happen to some extent), that would be a waste of a great physics engine.

This would be the case if there werent any retrictions. A server retriction such as no cars over 250HP or torque about or something would counter act that. Am not at all asking for free for all u know

Free for all would be good in certain cases.


there is a big difference between free for all and with retrictions. Imagine u enter a Server with TBO 300 class everyone on there has a maximum of 300hp the logic everyone is using is that but where back at sqaure one so whats the point.
point is the whole race Changes 300 HP is not the same as 250HP it takes more skill your gonna have different braking points,Different Fuel consumption, wheel spin might come on easier. the whole mentality of driving the car will have to change.

take for example GTR class lets say u have a 650 Class
think for a minute of things that would change.

Maybe the AWD GTR now has an advantage because of its AWD in getting the power to the ground
The GTR(car that dominates) now is prob going to have a harder because its a mid ship
Choice of tires.
Can't think of any more cause i havent driven them.

Quote :

I don't think LFS "suffers" from too few cars either (not that you'd know either, being, yes I'm going to say it, a Demo Racer with little to no actual experience of S2). There are certainly some well-known "performance gaps" e.g. between the GTRs, true, but we're not even in Beta stages yet so this may be worked out in future updates. Who knows? IMHO the beauty of LFS is the equality of the cars, which means races are contests of skill above all else.

i did say in my thread that i rather see alot of other things implemented before Such a system. This is probably why the dev have not fixed the GTR perfomance gap. As they continue to update the physics engine, changes they make might offset any correction they made to the cars. Being S2 is in its "alpha" stage it would be harder to spot any anomalies with varying engine outputs



Ive been patiently waiting for S2 Full still am

I see where u guys are coming from with the setups. my disagreement comes from the fact i rather see a driver adapt his style to a car before changing it.

But my need for Editable Engine parameters doesent come from the need to out tune somone you know. but to keep races fresh.i would love to be able to try and chase down an XRT with a GTi for example

In my opinion LFS suffers from the fact that it has so little cars. its a seriuous turn off. And most of them in the same class can't Run against each other. makes me feel its a waste of a physics engine.

There many performance aspects to setups aswell just because u like it dosent mean its Fast. Everyone is ajusting to what they feel is good.

the same concept can be applied to an Engine aswell. some people people may like and engine with a a strong low End thought it might not be the fastest.

Quote from Jakg :

if it wasnt for people having different driving styles i would say that there should be NO setups, LFS is about racing, and getting beaten because someone else has an uber engine remap but drives like crap isnt my idea of fun

Give me an example of how Driving Styles play a role in setups.

Quote from Jakg :

why? LFS is about the RACING, nothing more, sets are there to suite different driving styles, but the engine?

no, Driving Sets have much to do with performance. where do u get this logic from. i said before Current suspension setups influence Cornering Speed Acceleration.

Quote from Blackout :

To drive cars with different kind of power levels we have different cars.

and There less than 20 cars Kinda too General for my taste

Quote from wark :

So just use less gas and when you want to pretend you've got your more powerful, tuned engine, floor it.

This is what different cars are for.

don't think everyone would play that race with me lol

Quote from tristancliffe :

So ultimately what you are after is a half-arsed tuning mode, where everything is simplified down to stats like "Top End +1, Fuel Economy -12" etc... That is what you get if you want a trial and error game with little simulation of the individual parts.

um no, the trial and error aspect was to show that it isnt complex to figure out the results of a given change. what i was trying to convey is in real life u cannot Trial and Error to figure what the right turbo for a given application is. In Virtual Reality it is alot Quicker. Am not quite sure how u manage to deduce Little simulation out of my post

Quote from Blackout :

GRRRRR But why would we need that!! FFS don't you get it? "Online racing simulation". Not online engine building&tuning competition. Best racing is achieved when the cars are somewhat equal, saying setup options make it unequal is stypid, offcourse they do but adjusting the car is what real drivers allso do. If we had complex system of tuning this would be "race engineer simulation"...thats something I wouldn't want. And thank god we will never get this kind of shit.


BAM!...the horse has now been shot, as someone asked it on the page 1.

am not asking for a free for all no limits. just because you can change power levels of cars dosent mean you cannot have Equal Racing. i would love to have the ability to race with 600HP GTR cars and not just one power level over and over. it dosent mean Everyone cannot be on the same level.
Changing the power Levels Changes the whole Dynamics of a race, racing lines, braking points, pit strategy, it keeps the racing fresh.

a

Quote :

nd this is where i would like to see the ultimate difference in LFS and Gran turismo. IN GT u have preset parts, i rather have the ability to say u know i want a turbo that spool a bit quicker, so i edit the turbo by changing the A/r ratio now i have turbo that spool quicker but less of a top end.

was it really that unclear what i was talking about. Regardless that isnt the point.

Quote :

And what would you look at on the engine to match those components? Lots of things! In short you'd have to look and consider about 50 different numbers and how they work together at the entire working rpm of the engine to make an informed decision.

this is the best part about virtual Reality Trial and error is alot less complicated than it would be in real life. In real life u can't just Shift S to you garage and change the A/r hit ESC and pull out the pits.

If i was going to put a turbo onto a car in real life i would look at the displacement, camshafts, Stroke, valve timming, Exhuast manifolds, Boost maps for the compressor, before i select which turbo i would get.

Compared to LFS i would just go, ok lemme start out with this and see how that works; ok that sucks *changes it abit*

Quote :

Finally, if you want EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT on the engine to have this level of accuracy you end up with Scawen spending the next 15 years just programming about engine simulation.

do u think "EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT" on the engine needs to have this accuracy? i don't think so. There would be a need for an accurate engine Damage model (which i don't think anyone would mine) personally don't think it would take 15 years probably alot less. it would be alot less easier to test aswell.

Am not an Idiot in that regard. But if you mentioned P/R ratio and we were on the topic of turbos i would sooner assume preasure ratio.

But returning to the subject you, Tristan, have said before you don't think such a system could be realisticly implemented and not be complex. I on ther other hand think it can. For Example

Editable Turbo Parameters

Turbine AR
Turbine Wheel size
Compressor AR
Compressor Wheel Size
Boost
These 5 parameters is all the end user needs to know about. By no means Complex. Of course below all that, inside the game Engine, you have alot going. How deep the actual turbo simmulation has to be to get Results consistent with reality is still debatable.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Oh I see lala. You suddenly started talking about area/radius ratios. I just assumed that you were an idiot and meant Air /Fuel ratio (in which you'd have been wrong).

In this modern world that loves acronyms it ALWAYS helps to spell out the whole thing first. I could pull any acronym out of the blue and you wouldn't have a clue what it's all about. Lets say the P/D ratio. It can apply to turbos.

Answer: Pitch/Diameter ratio of the mounting studs, duh. A useless measurement maybe, but nonetheless you had no idea what I was talking about until I spelt it out.

Therefore, after all of this I conclude that you need to work on your communication skills (as do most people you want NOS, Bodykits, Engine Tuning, Drift Tyres and that sort of thing with tend to attact the working class type of person, with little or no self respect about how they are perceived).

I did type A/R ratio and not A/F ratio.

when demo racer post in the improvement forum it should be taken as "if this was in the game i would buy it." i would buy the game in a jiffy regardless of if it was locked from demo.
For now i rather wait for the Full version or maybe even a beta. i mean its one thing to go around blackwood a million times. but its another to buy the game and and have a majority of the people at aston

Quote from al heeley :

Marvellous! So by the same philosophy, designing a high performance jet fighter may be tricky but making a paper aeroplane is quite staightforward really. Thanks for this fascinating insight, its all so much clearer now

i suppose u could look at it that way. i am sure by todays standards the wright brothers plane isnt to complicated.

Quote from tristancliffe :

F is close to R on the keyboard I suppose.

I just wish that anything to do with cars was a simple as lala actually thinks...

its simple on certain levels if your someone who actually designs engines from ground up and work for a company like BMW or honda then it isnt simple. but if you do it sorta as a hobby buying an engine block and head and slapping them together it isnt that complicated.

Quote :

Interesting... Could you teach me more about this A/r ratio?

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/ ... nter/turbo_tech102.html#b

Scroll Down to Turbine A/R

Quote :

An even better reason not to generalise. The continent is even bigger.

i didn't mean to gerneralize but it is true to some extent.

Quote from wark :

All right. That's the last straw. I'm changing my damned flag to something neutral.

Lumping two states together is almost as bad as throwing the British in with the French. All 50: Arabs and Jews.

There's enough intercity disassociation and disgust here in California alone (even excluding intracity hate and rivalry in LA) for an entire continent. The only thing that unites us is a bunch of papers plebeians never read.*

*I didn't say this was a good thing.

?????????????????u don't think its True?
BY the Way i am in america

Quote :

No, because you can download track-specific world record setups just like thousands of others do Having said that, I know guys who are very quick who just use basic setups like Bob Smith's "easy" range (which I like a lot). As a casual pickup racer, basic sets suit me fine and I don't have to adjust them much at all to be competitive. If I had to concern myself with all the intricacies of setting up my engine to maximise its performance I might not play much at all.

Why can't it be the same for the engine. Download Track specific WR engine setups. i suppose if i wanted to be a idiot about it i could go on to say "If its a sim then who gears about pickup racing when realism is the goal. Pickup racing is arcady and all that" but am not and i understand u have to cut that realism BS somewhere. But the prospects of being able to change the engine far outweigh the value of pickup racing in my mind.

Quote :

Whether LFS tuning would be GT-style (stupidly simple and ultimately pointless as everyone would have to have all the upgrades or just lose races all the time) or ultra-realistic to the point of putting people off, I don't think anyone can convince me that it will improve the LFS experience, and if you can convince the devs (who are the ones who matter here, as all this extra work would have to de done by them - or by Scawen in particular) then I'll be really impressed

It dosent have to be Realistic to the point where it turns people off. Ultra realistic would be impossible

assuming u could take a LX4/6 Chasis and put a V8 in it and spec it too what u want.

i said before i don't think everyone would be lost. it would not be more complicated that current suspension setups.

Quote :

Part of LFS's appeal (and the appeal of just about every car-based game known to humanity) is that you can just race a car and not need to know anything too technical.

The current suspension setups arent teachnical?. if i love racing and have no clue about gear ratios arent i at a disadvantage if i play LFS.

When i mentioned stage 1 cam i was saying that we are not asking for preset upgradeble parts where stage 1 might be 270Duration@12Mm lift or something like that.

small point
Gran turismo Engine upgrades arent unlrealistic. i can actually go out and buy stage X cams,turbo kits. from some manufacturer.

Quote :

I know you can "tune" in Gran Turismo and NFS but that's really nothing more than buying bits, sticking them on and going a bit faster. No actual involvement required.

and this is where i would like to see the ultimate difference in LFS and Gran turismo. IN GT u have preset parts, i rather have the ability to say u know i want a turbo that spool a bit quicker, so i edit the turbo by changing the A/r ratio now i have turbo that spool quicker but less of a top end.

Quote :

especially if they find themselves "out-tuned" by people who know what they're doing.

Why do people think that u can only be "out-Tunned" by an engine. u could have the best engine in the world and its crippled by a crap suspension. the the current setup controls so many parts of the car from traction to corner speed to topspeed and acceleration. that i am amazed that people think there mainly for "Driving Style"

ultimately i would love to see multiple classes inside of classes. GT400 GT500. Where 500 is maximum of 500hp etc. This would be good for league races because u could whipe the playing field free each season by changing the restrictions and having a fresh race each season. for pickup races there isnt nothing good unless LFS had 10,000 people playing on a regular basis. so it could support such diversity. i think this is the sorta depth the original poster was talking about.

although some of u don't see what it can add, i can think of a few off the top of my head



1.Problem with the GTR is completly solves
2.it opens the game up to alot of people. and Americans who are into that sorta stuff.
3.LX8 That everyone wants so bad can be made.
4.Real Time backfires
Edit5.More realistic Responding Engines
Edit6.more realistic sound.
Edit7.Realistic Engine Damage


No one is asking for Stage 1 cams, where each stage is clearly better than the last. we are asking to be able to specifiy each parts specs and have the consiquent response to such a change. there many different ways u could Spec and engine and its setup. saying there is one optimal setup is stupid.


The manner in which such a system is implemented thats still up for debate.

the horse is kinda beaten but there has been no one who fights for the other side.

Last edited by lalathegreat, Tue, 18 Jul 2006 06:04.

well the combination for more fuel no advance is not determined by one factor

the reason for more fuel is because there is alot of Air still entering the engine "LowRPM:HighLOaD" if u injected same about of Fuel as "LowRpm:LowLoad" it would be very lean.

Timming advance is determined by engine speed and the mixture.
More air Less timming
More engine Speed equals more timming

SO in that scenario u have alot of air(less timming) and low Engine Speed(less timming)