The online racing simulator
Test Patch U25: Multiplayer Updates
(353 posts, started )
Quote from DGontarz :That's why this game will die Frown looks the same like 10 years ago :/ 0 new cars, only 1 new track, 0 new options, 0 freshness and only small updates that change nothing

If only the games` biggest update wasn't being worked on...

Also, this is a RACING simulator, not cruise or tuning simulator. If you want tuning, go play automation and beamng. If you want proper racing... you're in this games` forum
Since you're in mood for protocol changes, may I request a small addition:
I'd like the idea of knowing how many people are spectating a certain player Smile

Right now, the ViewPLID is only part of the IS_STA packet which is pointless on dedicate hosts since nobody is watching on the server. However, the clients already report their camera parameters with the IS_CCH packet upwards to the server, so it would only take an additional byte to also report the plid of the car they're currently viewing.


struct IS_STA // STAte
{
...
byte ViewPLID; // Unique ID of viewed player (0 = none)
...
}


struct IS_CCH // Camera CHange
{
byte Size; // 8
byte Type; // ISP_CCH
byte ReqI; // 0
byte PLID; // player's unique id

byte Camera; // view identifier (see below)
byte Sp1; <<< add ViewPLID here *********************
byte Sp2;
byte Sp3;
};

But the thing is, it is so sad that this game has the best/realistic driving physics all of the games what is now out there and live for speed dont offer the cool stuff like other shitty/nonrealistic games does. Why dont give players chance to do cars and racing series what they want and grow the game big like assetto corsa has done over the years?. More players, more money to make lfs better for all of us.
I'll try some hotlaps then for all 3 GTR cars in that mode on diffirent cars to compare atleast a bit, would be good if other fadt guys would do same i guess.
Quote from chucknorris :...

Yes, this very much needed for example for showing buttons with custom lap tracking info of a spectated car.

However, a little problem with CCH packet is that for some reason there is like a 4 seconds delay before the packet is reported, whereas for example IS_CIM packets are reported immediately. But I guess it's still better than nothing even with the delay.
Quote from Scawen :No, I was trying to achieve a compromise.

It may be my bad driving or the setup but I find the FZR about 1 second faster round Blackwood than the XRR, both using the alternate config. In the previous version the difference was more like 1.5 seconds.

I think I described all this already though. Maybe I didn't give enough detail.

Did some testing with XRR and FZR with street_super tires on three tracks KY2 WE2 SO6 (didnt know what track to choose Big grin BL1 has bumpy braking zone so nightmare for me Big grin)
I'm using mouse for steering. so my throttle control are not the best but I can make so good lap times.

XRR was quite unpredictible especially out of turns when boost comes ON and rear just looses grip easy on 3-4 gear. If it's slow U turn it's manageable. But long turn when you need fast exit uh hard, turbo lag and studden power doesnt help. Had to work hard to make some decent time.

FZR was fun to drive easy going straight out the pits lot of grip, easy in turns, felt nimble. It does some wheel spin out of turns but you can predict it because it has NA engine constant torque and easy to control with throttle.


Maybe +20mm tyre width added to XRR will solve problem and I think when official version be released players will start to organise events with GTR+Street tires and then we will see real difference and maybe latter Scawen could do minor changes to tires width or something.

Overall cars had 0,8-1sec difference and had to put more effort and more laps into XRR to reduce time gap and with FZR on a 2nd hot lap already faster than XRR.
Thanks for the testing and comments.

I have been thinking and before I say this I want to emphasise that this is not checked out or guaranteed. It is just some thoughts to discuss and I would appreciate if any comments would stay on topic.

What I was thinking is maybe we could remove the whole idea of the separate configuration and instead have a couple of adjusters, for the front and rear wheels.

Each pair of wheels could have the option to go down a few tyre sizes (in steps of 10mm) and another one to add spacing (in steps of 5mm to move the wheel out a bit as it goes narrower).

I think it might be possible to do this in the same "set up car" area of code where I made the new configurations do their thing.

I would suggest this could be available on all cars except the single seaters.

When looking into this I noticed the UF1, XRG and FZR have some unrealistic tyre sizes and maybe this would be a good time to correct them. All road car tyre sizes have a section width that is a number of mm ending in the digit '5'. But with these cars I mentioned, that is not the case.

I thought to correct this, maybe:

- UF 1000 tyres could go up to 165 instead of 160
- XR GT rear could go down from 220 to 215
- FZ50 GTR tyres could be reduced by 5mm each (or maybe more - they are seriously wide)

I think the existing hotlaps could still work by avoiding this correction when loading an old replay. I hope that maybe the XR GT really doesn't need such fat rear tyres and maybe the FZ GTR doesn't need them so wide either.

If I would do the adjuster things described above, it would only be for *reducing* any tyre widths, which could help race organisers to make new categories (other than by using intake restriction and ballast) or also be useful for drifting, etc.

The extreme steering angle limit on RWD cars (for drifting) could be dynamically calculated depending on the wheel width and offset (spacing) to keep it realistic.
Quote from Scawen :...

Sounds nice to me. But regarding the hotlap tables, if the new tires for some of the cars are 5mm thinner, I suppose the times done previously by the faster guys won't be reached in this new version (if that matters).
NB: classic FZR being quicker than XRR is only due to people using autoclutch (or worse 😁), as if you want using the FZR with the clutch, good luck trying to catch a good/medium driver with an XRR 😉
Quote from Scawen :...

you mean FZ50 GTR rear tyres right?
and about having diffirent tyre size for all cars except single seaters.. i think its not necessary, because GTI/TBO/LRF/ UF GTR, XF GTR already have tyres at their tyre temperature limits in races, so more narrow tyres arent really suited for anything, i suggest just stick with changes forthose 3 GTR cars tyre change option, nothing else.
This is real size of tire is good. This will change the lap time anyway. Will maybe leave it for later? When will be released the new physics, and when all the results will be deleted. (google translate, sorry)
Quote from Flotch :...regarding the hotlap tables, if the new tires for some of the cars are 5mm thinner, I suppose the times done previously by the faster guys won't be reached in this new version (if that matters).

I suppose it does matter a bit. I was thinking maybe the XR GT and FZ GTR rear tyres are wider than they need to be and might even be faster with a thinner tyre due to lower wight and rolling resistance. But that might require a lot of testing that could be a waste of time.

Quote from Nadeo4441 :What about the h-shift pattern in XRR then?

Good point, didn't think of that.

Quote from Pathseeker :i suggest just stick with changes for those 3 GTR cars tyre change option, nothing else.

This might be the best idea, yes. But I remember race organisers use restricted UFR and XFR so maybe they would like some narrow tyres as a different type of restriction?

Quote from aanrus :Will maybe leave it for later? When will be released the new physics, and when all the results will be deleted.

That might be the best idea, yes.

One thing I am trying to do here is escape from the trouble of balancing these new categories for racing and also for drifting. If the users can adjust tyre size then there is no problem.

If we keep the configurations then it could be that the tyre size adjustment is only applied to the new configurations. So they can be balanced for racing and drifting by users after the release. But if the code is there (and I already coded a test version of tyre width reduction) then it could easily be applied to other cars too.

Thanks for the replies, I'm just trying to think this through with you.
Hmm, if it's used in this online, then that's good. But hide this possibility in this "hot lap" mod. And so, there should be a binding of the width of the tire to this mass of the car.
Quote from Scawen :...

This sounds like a fair compromise, thanks for taking the time to think things over, appreciate the updates thanks.
I like the idea. It keeps everyone happy, adds the realism of calculated steering lock, and lets servers balance new classes in the official patch instead of trying to get a bunch of people to race on a test patch server.

The FZR tryes are super wide. It looks like the race spec 911 runs 347mm rears. The widest slick I could find was 353mm for the Viper ACR. This might be better left for the "next" patch, as it re-opens the problem of balancing.

I think whatever you propose, there will be people who don't like it, or ask for more. (Where are the 115 mm tyres for drag racing, lol).
Even on restrictions UFR and XFR tyres are narrow enough, fwd eating tyres. So yeah my suggestion atleast for now work on 3 GTR cars, thats enough and nice change for us.
I had some RX fun time with this patch. What I miss is longer suspension motion range for rally setup.


Scawen, if you speak about tires. Please consider setting up different tire profile for hybrid and gravel tires. Current low profile gravel tires looks odd.
Quote from Scawen :Each pair of wheels could have the option to go down a few tyre sizes (in steps of 10mm) and another one to add spacing (in steps of 5mm to move the wheel out a bit as it goes narrower).

So there'll be 50 different "versions" of the same car each with slightly different tyres. I think this is going to saturate the cars in a bad way. We look at a car we won't know what it is and who is faster. Everytime an explanation: Hey he is using 5mm wider track etc. Right now we can see if its drift/street spec or GTR spec. No confusion.

What I realized from this thread is that the drift community will never have enough. After this they'll ask you to adjust turbo pressure, then engine power, then cylinders etc. This is a bottomless hole. Sometimes giving people everything they want creates the opposite effect because they don't have that one thing to go for. And it's not easy in real life to adjust the rim and track. You jump in a different configuration.

And whoever has perfect balance? In GT series nothing is perfectly balanced, every car has strength in certain track or environment. You want the 1=1 balance? Use the same damn car. Why even try to make 2 different cars perform exactly the same?

You said you were going to get this done and move on.
What you proposed is going to take another month or two because it never takes as little as projected, another bunch of petty requests while you're at that, while new graphics and tyres wait.

What's your goal? Sell more LFS. Make LFS better for everyone. Is this going to sell more LFS? What percentage of LFS users care about this? 5%? Reading on the forum might create the illusion that everyone wants this while in reality most don't care. You did the multiplayer update, which pretty much affects 100% of players. The stuff you're working on now? A few people doing request after request trying to get the dev to create the exact game they want.

And all this will be subject to change with new tyres anyway. And if you're planning to let people create custom cars or allow modding, again all this will be of no importance. I think this should be left for later stages of LFS after new tyres are updated, and tested, in a menu like "Modify/Edit a car", so each drift server owner can create whatever perfect balance they want.
@Scawen, while you are at it, what about allowing to reduce the rim size (assuming it may only lead to slower the laptimes)... I remember a tool allowing to change this, and maybe even changing their look, but that is another job of course.
AFAIK modded rims cause OOS if used in "public" servers.
I am highly suggesting to have Alternative configuration to XF GTR & UF GTR cars, which could compete with standard compound tires against XF GTi & XR GT. Opens up more on exotic classes, especially when UF-BR is heavily used somewhat against those cars in multiclass back then.

EDIT: Thought out once this thing seems to be highly lit. Although I do not race anymore, at least I can give some contribution on these alternative configurations. Seems like restricted racing stays on this platform, liked or not.
Quote from UnknownMaster21 :I am highly suggesting to have Alternative configuration to XF GTR & UF GTR cars, which could compete with standard compound tires against XF GTi & XR GT. Opens up more on exotic classes, especially when UF-BR is heavily used somewhat against those cars in multiclass back then.

That would be fun, could be like a hot hatch kind of class, since hatches these days easily make 200+ BHP.
Quote from Bose321 :That would be fun, could be like a hot hatch kind of class, since hatches these days easily make 200+ BHP.

Indeed! It was already fun back then! And it still would be today! Especially when more options... obviously any kind of more options is welcome on this platform of course.
Current plan is a combination of the new configuration and also the adjustable wheels. Simplified to make it easily usable and to finish the patch as soon as possible.

Here's what I've come round to:

Applies to GTR cars only. Could be only the 3 big GTRs or maybe include the XF and UF as suggested above.

Default configuration is exactly as before and does not have new adjustments.

Alternative configuration starts with very slightly adjusted tyre size, then allows a single new adjuster to reduce tyre section width in 10mm steps. Tyre aspect ratio is automatically adjusted to approximately preserve tyre diameter. Offset (spacing) is automatically added in 5mm steps to keep the wheel's outer edge in the same place. Maximum allowed value for maximum lock (XRR and FZR only) is automatically calculated from the offset and wheel width.
Quote from Scawen :Current plan is a combination of the new configuration and also the adjustable wheels. Simplified to make it easily usable and to finish the patch as soon as possible.
Here's what I've come round to:
Alternative configuration starts with very slightly adjusted tyre size, then allows a single new adjuster to reduce tyre section width in 10mm steps. Tyre aspect ratio is automatically adjusted to approximately preserve tyre diameter. Offset (spacing) is automatically added in 5mm steps to keep the wheel's outer edge in the same place. Maximum allowed value for maximum lock (XRR and FZR only) is automatically calculated from the offset and wheel width.

This sounds great!, but the question is what will be the largest tire sizes and the offset spacing? Like I recommended before for drifting, cars require wider front track to help with high speed and high angle drifting (helps with higher caster, contact patch of front tires, and more camber correction when rolling, also Ackerman)

XRR ranging from a 245-265 front and 265-285 rear I think would be right 3 options per side
Current XRR alternative track is 1.69 front and 1.62 rear I think getting around 1.8-2.0 front track for drifting would be desired. For racing stay within those parameters 0.1 different max.

So yeah 3 different tire sizes front and rear, and allowing them to be with in 20mm from each other for GTR CARS ONLY

Test Patch U25: Multiplayer Updates
(353 posts, started )
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