The online racing simulator
Even closer LFS go to real, even more time Scawen need.
Its OK for me. I like it real

Make it real Scawen and pick as much time as you need
Good news.. 2011 will be a good year for lfs!

What is coming after S3? a Beta Version with some phases?
new pach is avaiable after february, thank scawen, today is the day all people are happy.
Quote from farcar :This is really just a massive assumption followed by more assumptions about the first assumption.
All baseless too.

Seriously?

Quote from farcar :But what is the content of that... erm... content?
That is the squilleventy million dollar question.

Revamped graphics, I speculate!

illepall
thank you scawen for your posts. imagine the stress this guy is taking on, it just isnt fair.

quiet game in this thread starrttsss.......NOW!


:hide:
Quote from FBUT Bishop :I have a question ... Does Volkswagen GmbH puts the pressure on the car in the game to be perfect and / or to make it available as soon as possible? Or is it that developers are free from that?

Sorry about my bad english, i hope you understand what i mean... Google translate

Its not a GmbH ist a AG and i cant found any information about LFS or the VWS for LFS here in our intranet by VW in Wolfsburg
And i can promise you there is no pressure on Scawen from here. Our CarCity dont have a Car simulator or anything else so its not nessesary to put the VWS closely to the reality.
Quote from Scawen :...but we couldn't get the Scirocco to drive as safely as a real one does while restricting ourselves to a realistic setup). So, releasing the Scirocco has been out of the question until the tyre physics system is quite close to reality.

If someone can tell me why its important that a car behaves 'safely' (presumably with accurately modelled ABS, ESP, TCS systems) in a racing sim, id be very interested! The first thing any racer is going to do is turn all of those systems off! Maybe its VW secrectly pushing for the safety angle and refusing a general release of the Scirocco until the car is 'safe' to drive, in case it detracts from their corporate image of building safe and predictable handling cars!?
When I read that too, I thought it was a strange. I'm sure it's just a bad choice of words.
I think it's meant in the sense that the car handled pretty erratically, and not very realistic..
In other words, to make it not handle like shit you need a weird setup.
Quote from dynofiend :If someone can tell me why its important that a car behaves 'safely' (presumably with accurately modelled ABS, ESP, TCS systems) in a racing sim, id be very interested! The first thing any racer is going to do is turn all of those systems off! Maybe its VW secrectly pushing for the safety angle and refusing a general release of the Scirocco until the car is 'safe' to drive, in case it detracts from their corporate image of building safe and predictable handling cars!?

Yes because Lambos are the safest cars of them all
Quote from Macfox :Seriously?



illepall

There's an important difference between speculation and a baseless assumption. The difference is further magnified when context is taken in to account. Go and look up those words and you'll have learnt something today.

illepall etc.
Quote from dynofiend :If someone can tell me why its important that a car behaves 'safely' (presumably with accurately modelled ABS, ESP, TCS systems) in a racing sim, id be very interested! The first thing any racer is going to do is turn all of those systems off! Maybe its VW secrectly pushing for the safety angle and refusing a general release of the Scirocco until the car is 'safe' to drive, in case it detracts from their corporate image of building safe and predictable handling cars!?

Quote from Scawen :Limited setup system

We mentioned before that the VW Scirocco would be our first car with a limited setup. But as time went by, that plan changed a little. We realised that limited setups would be a popular option for online hosts. It is a feature that has often been requested. It would allow people to race in road cars that feel like road cars (not stiffened and lowered) and still be competitive. So we decided the limited setups should be an option that applies to many of the LFS cars. For example, in limited setup mode, the standard road cars would only allow tyre pressure and toe adjustments. The LX6 / RAC / FZ5 class (LRF) would also allow compression and rebound damping to be adjusted along with ride height and adjustable anti roll bars (in some cases). The idea is to allow the same adjustments you could make on the real car without changing any parts.

I think this means that the VWS will not have the option to turn off the driving aids, as the real one would also have them turned on all the time.
And this brings up another question:

Is the Scirocco supposed to be "road-going" only or also a race version?

Like it's done already with FXR, FZR, XRR, etc.

So, like VWS and VWR?

In Germany, there's a the Scirocco R-Cup, but I haven't really paid attention iff those cars were still mostly road-cars or had been modified for circuit racing.

They had a push-to-pass button though.

Some action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi8kY6qcLcA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5GFrbVuK2A
Quote from Be2K :Its not a GmbH ist a AG and i cant found any information about LFS or the VWS for LFS here in our intranet by VW in Wolfsburg
And i can promise you there is no pressure on Scawen from here. Our CarCity dont have a Car simulator or anything else so its not nessesary to put the VWS closely to the reality.

Sorry about GmbH - AG stuff...
Thanks for the answer.
Quote from Hahmo :He's not trying to make the most realistic racing sim possible. He's trying to make the best as he can and then be happy with it.

What I said and what you said - to me means exactly the same thing?


Quote :If someone can tell me why its important that a car behaves 'safely' (presumably with accurately modelled ABS, ESP, TCS systems) in a racing sim, id be very interested! The first thing any racer is going to do is turn all of those systems off! Maybe its VW secrectly pushing for the safety angle and refusing a general release of the Scirocco until the car is 'safe' to drive, in case it detracts from their corporate image of building safe and predictable handling cars!?

To be realistic - maybe? If the safety features don't work realistically - it is safe to assume that it wont behave like a real car.
TNX Scawen!

I appreciate the new openness of Scawen!

This is what I was missing for a while.

Relating to the community is allways better than its opposit.

Of course there are allways stupid comments and inpatient outburst from the crowd, and I allways count myself closer to those than to the
slimetale that comes out of some peoples mouth and findertips on the keyboard.

Greetings,

Dandy
Quote from breadfan :Yes because Lambos are the safest cars of them all

Because on a Lamborghini, if you press "TC OFF", it turns off, no other stupid little electronics are present.

If you disable traction control is most VAG group cars, it either turns itself back on at 31mph or still uses the brakes/ESP to stop you having any fun.

Basically it's the health and safety executes dream. That dream is killing the motor industry.

Does the Diesel Scirocco still not allow you to heel'n'toe (or apply throttle with the brake applied?) like all of the MK4 golfs/Seats did?
Quote from S14 DRIFT :Basically it's the health and safety executes dream. That dream is killing the motor industry

Maybe, maybe not. But 90% of people have absolutely no idea how to control a vehicle at any sort of speed. It's perfectly understandable why manufacturers put these aids on permanently. No doubt it helps lower insurance premiums as well for everyone.
Quote from RasmusL :I think it's meant in the sense that the car handled pretty erratically, and not very realistic..
In other words, to make it not handle like shit you need a weird setup.

Seeing the requests in the "what new car for LFS" threads and such, a RL car that is within range of average (european meaning) drivers is wanted.

However it will be a major test for LFS, as it will be the first time that this simulator can be compared to RL. Scawen also pushed it further by trying to replicate (and offer the possibility to lock) RL car setup.

If the devs can do it well, it will probably not change much for us LFS users but it will be an incredible achievement for them and a potential advertisement to attract new users.
However it will also allow a direct comparison with other sims on the market, so the pressure on the devs team is probably quite high before this release I can understand that they do not want to rush it... can you?
I (and I think many more...) believe in your dream and appreciate your effort!
The believers waiting silently..., keep up the good work
Quote from Mille Sabords :Seeing the requests in the "what new car for LFS" threads and such, a RL car that is within range of average (european meaning) drivers is wanted.

However it will be a major test for LFS, as it will be the first time that this simulator can be compared to RL. Scawen also pushed it further by trying to replicate (and offer the possibility to lock) RL car setup.

If the devs can do it well, it will probably not change much for us LFS users but it will be an incredible achievement for them and a potential advertisement to attract new users.
However it will also allow a direct comparison with other sims on the market, so the pressure on the devs team is probably quite high before this release I can understand that they do not want to rush it... can you?

While I agree with most of that, saying "direct comparison with other sims" is basically meaningless from a "realism" standpoint. Other sims do sometimes provide lap times consistent with their real-world counterparts, yet one has to wonder how that was achieved. In the sims I have used, I suspect that effect was achieved via tweaking of different aspects of the car and tire models rather than a physics model that was really representative. I know that's splitting hairs for most folks, but it's important to me.

People accustomed to driving sims should always be able to lay down a faster lap than a car on a real track with a real driver because of infinite practice and 0 consequences (no risk of death or injury). Therefore, making a sim that presents representative times isn't always a good measure of quality. I think Scawen understands this. He's working towards something that does a good job of representing reality. The real car with the real track did highlight the existing flaws which I think did drive the timing of this physics work. That's OK. Better is generally better.
Quote from Hallen :
People accustomed to driving sims should always be able to lay down a faster lap than a car on a real track with a real driver because of infinite practice and 0 consequences (no risk of death or injury). Therefore, making a sim that presents representative times isn't always a good measure of quality.

This is an interesting thought.

I've pretty much thought this way the last 8 years, but I am willing to question that - finally. It's been a long standing opinion but lately I'm not to sure it's justified anymore.

I fully understand the logic that goes into that opinion - the plain and simple fact is that the RL driver has a ton more input into his carcass. He feels the G forces, he feels the loads, he feels when the car wants to toss his ass into the wind. I get that. Been there, done that, much like you but probably to a lesser extent; and most certainly to a lesser extent than Tristan for example.


That being said, I'm starting to lean towards the idea that even though there's no risk of death and no risk of monetary penalty on "this" side of things, that may not be an advantage beyond a certain, indeterminate amount of track time. Initially when diving into ththings I think there's no question; but I think that gap may close fairly quickly following the "new and fresh" stage.


I'd submit to you that the closer one gets to "the limit" (tm) the more valuable real experience becomes. And I would suggest that Huutu's run with iRacing does support that. A (good) sim can teach you pretty severely what a car will and will not do, it will teach you the dynamics of a track to the point, in iRacing's case, of what surface issues to look out for - but once the top few positions are in question I think track time trumps a sim simply because of the feel.

Mind you, I think the gap is far smaller than the general public has a clue about, and the sim community's real motivation seems simply to argue. There's no question that iRacing (for example because of their passion to replicate real track experiences) DOES have a tangible impact on driving ability. No doubt that LFS does in a generic facet as well.

Point being that realistic sims DO help, but for that last little bit I don't think we can use sims in the last % at this point simply because of physics and brain chemistry. Nonetheless, I think it's fairly obvious that the racing skill set is very very obviously complemented, honed, and kept sharp in sim racing to a degree that is not generally accepted yet. Maybe Hutuu can get into 95% without driving a real car, and that in itself is an serious endeavour imo. Wyatt winning a couple of races running in a real Jetta series as in iRacing, that's good stuff. I'm not sure what the sim community has left to prove at this point.
Quote from farcar :There's an important difference between speculation and a baseless assumption. The difference is further magnified when context is taken in to account. Go and look up those words and you'll have learnt something today.

illepall etc.

Irrelevant and off topic. I made my point and few would give a hoot about some loose definition to justify your contradictory remarks.
Quote from Hallen :
People accustomed to driving sims should always be able to lay down a faster lap than a car on a real track with a real driver because of infinite practice and 0 consequences (no risk of death or injury). Therefore, making a sim that presents representative times isn't always a good measure of quality. I think Scawen understands this. He's working towards something that does a good job of representing reality. The real car with the real track did highlight the existing flaws which I think did drive the timing of this physics work. That's OK. Better is generally better.

It's a good point to consider.

Does the feedback disadvantage outweigh the advantage of infinite practice and 0 consequences and should the difference be compensated in the simulation?
This thread is closed

Progress Report December 2010
(1653 posts, closed, started )
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