But racing cars are easy to drive. The hard bit about being quick is not the cars being difficult... They are engineered and setup with as few vices or compromises as possible. The hardest aspect is coping with the steering loads, the g-forces on the neck, and the sheer pedal effort of braking.

The reputation went because I stopped playing online. It's not because I stopped being quick, or because I started crashing into people. Real racing took over, and that is more important to me than playing sims.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

then full lock right with the sole purpose of pasting me into a wall! .

Nice.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's not because I stopped being quick, or because I started crashing into people.

Somehow I doubt that one.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The reputation went because I stopped playing online.

So if you no longer sim race online, which if you are racing properly fair enough. Then why is it that you seem to think you have an opinion on the subject of sim racing and physics if you are not driving them any more and they are constantly changing? Maybe you should try another thread where you are likely to know what you are going on about... could take a while granted but it's worth a try.

Quote from oscarhardwick :

Then why is it that you seem to think you have an opinion on the subject of sim racing...

You may not agree with his opinion but that doesn't mean he can't have one. You can argue that his opinion is baseless but to say he can't have one is making you look a fool.

The 2-foot mash (brake + throttle) to save spins in RWD cars works in every sim as long as you can lock the front wheels quickly and keep the rear wheels driving. But a bit less well in higher grip ones like LFS and nekPro. The person demonstrating it in an Elise in the video in the Ben Cornett's thread is Andy Walsh, who is a racing driver (contrary to what was implied) and a former F1 test driver (Benetton). Where the thread is right is the unnatural extent in which cars tend to snap straight again in the sims. Which I'm guessing has something to do with over-the-limit grip.

I spun out in the NTM Mustang yesterday at Okayama in the slow up-hill left-hander (about 3 from the end). I could have stopped it possibly just countersteering, but couldn't be bothered. Whilst watching the replay, another car came up about 10secs later and did exactly the same thing. When I recently drove the Mustang (which I don't do much) at Watkins, my race pace was equivilent to about 3rd fastest overal Quali time. You have to ask how someone who can drive after all, can spin out at 30-40 mph with a completely steady throttle just because they weren't concentrating hard enough. If that were real, anyone on a country lane in the UK at 60mph looking out the window/talking etc. would probably die.

Low speed grip and/or when breaking traction must be wrong in iRacing, and the NTM hasn't helped much. It also doesn't help that there's no real qualitative difference (only quantitative) between grip and sliding - one just keeps rotating and you wonder why on that occasion. A member of Team Redline (Hutto's team) summed it up well by saying he couldn't drive by instinct in iRacing. Just imagine what it'd be like now if conditions were realistically changing all the time.

That said, Tim Wheatley, formally of iRacing and now working for ISI, said the maintenance contract for the iRacing scanner alone is $50,000/yr, and the subscription service is the only way you could afford to do what they're doing. So with that an updates every 3 months it's going to cost money. That's what it's got: organised racing and laser scanned tracks.

I think rF2 is by far the best tyre model at the moment. But the collision physics and the general way the cars look/move from the outside - appears really arcade compared to iRacing IMO - ignoring the occasional glitch to be seen all over youtube courtesy of the anti-fan boys.

Oh well, roll on Assetto Corsa...

I wasn't impressed with iracing. For some reason it kinda reminds me of World of Warcraft.

Great post Pat, however shouldn't all sims have the 2 foot thing work? If they use it enough it'll just stop the rotation and they can continue on. The reason though most don't use it in other sims is because they have flat spots and tire wear that can be highly affected by a lock up like that.

Quote from oscarhardwick :

Nice.



Somehow I doubt that one.



So if you no longer sim race online, which if you are racing properly fair enough. Then why is it that you seem to think you have an opinion on the subject of sim racing and physics if you are not driving them any more and they are constantly changing? Maybe you should try another thread where you are likely to know what you are going on about... could take a while granted but it's worth a try.

I don't remember the incident with Jeff itself, but I bet it was during a mess about race, rather than a proper race or a league event.

Why do you think I wasn't quick? Or are you doubting my reasons for not playing?

I do play sims. Just rarely online, and not iRacing recently. Doesn't mean I don't follow the progress of them, or no longer have a valid opinion. You only have to read this thread to know about the host of flaws in the simulation that have been there since the beginning and not been fixed. If you want to believe its the best, then that's your call.

Quote from oscarhardwick :

Nice.



Somehow I doubt that one.



So if you no longer sim race online, which if you are racing properly fair enough. Then why is it that you seem to think you have an opinion on the subject of sim racing and physics if you are not driving them any more and they are constantly changing? Maybe you should try another thread where you are likely to know what you are going on about... could take a while granted but it's worth a try.

Oscar please GTFO all you've done is come into the thread and started blasting Tristan and offerd nothing at all in criticism bar a small thing above saying "The recent ones" Which is true. The recent NTM is the best ones yet.
But what your really doing is forcing your oppinion on people and not listening to others. How very dictating of you.

I agree with what Tristan is saying, I have had iRacing since the beta and the cars are just too hard to drive since the latest patch. Racing machines by their nature have lots of grip, with iRacing it's like they are on ice with a million bhp.

I've now switched to GT5 for a bit which I must say is not half bad. While it's not a proper Sim it's half way there and it rewards good, neat driving.

iRacing just seems a bit mad at the moment, they just seem to be making it worse

Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't remember the incident with Jeff itself, but I bet it was during a mess about race, rather than a proper race or a league event.

Just to put this garbage to rest, Tristan that is correct it was during the couple of minutes between races and we were just messing around.

My post was 100% tongue in cheek - I'm sorry if that didn't come across properly to random people who have no idea who you are or how you've contributed to this community for the better part of the past decade.

In any event, Postman Pat has the right idea though - RF2 is leading the entire pack in terms of tire modelling right now. Two years ago, I really would've thought Kaemmer and crew would be a lot farther along than they are both in tires and overall simulation. Hmm, that sounds familiar... Clearly I'm poor at prediction of sim progress

Quote from Simon Savage :

I agree with what Tristan is saying, I have had iRacing since the beta and the cars are just too hard to drive since the latest patch. Racing machines by their nature have lots of grip, with iRacing it's like they are on ice with a million bhp.

I've now switched to GT5 for a bit which I must say is not half bad. While it's not a proper Sim it's half way there and it rewards good, neat driving.

iRacing just seems a bit mad at the moment, they just seem to be making it worse

iRacing's cars are a bit of a hit and miss. The Mustang on OTM was fantastic. The V8SC is good. Those are are the only car I feel like they are "realistic" in the game.

Quote from Postman Pat :

It also doesn't help that there's no real qualitative difference (only quantitative) between grip and sliding - one just keeps rotating and you wonder why on that occasion. A member of Team Redline (Hutto's team) summed it up well by saying he couldn't drive by instinct in iRacing. Just imagine what it'd be like now if conditions were realistically changing all the time.

That's a nail to the coffin for me. I had been thinking of this for long, and noticed that not all is right.

Counter steering is pointless in iRacing after a certain point, and actually speeds up the spin. It really feels terrible. Though, the fact that you can just put both feet to the floor and never spin a car again obviously makes up for that, but it isn't exactly a selling point. When the NTM isn't anywhere as realistic as LFS was 5 years ago, it's not exactly very impressive, is it? Oscar, fair enough the NTM is making progress, but do you really think it's as good as the fanboys say? The tyres don't wear, over the limit feels junk, the cars do some strange pogo from tight > loose all the way round the corners, the tyres heat up too fast, the pressures are well off, the grip is a total guess every corner, the FFB is junk, it feels like you're floating, no flat spots, no dirt pick up, no variable conditions and racing line, and, of course, the 2FMSH is ****ing idiotic. I could go on.

LFS, with maybe a few of iRacing tracks (at least they manage 1 thing properly) plugged into the IR MP service, with all the braindead Americans removed, would make me very happy.

Quote from DeKo :

LFS, with maybe a few of iRacing tracks (at least they manage 1 thing properly) plugged into the IR MP service, with all the braindead Americans removed, would make me very happy.

LFS, nKPRo, Assetto Corsa (it's obviously gonna be good to drive, right? ) or rFactor 2 plugged into the iR MP service would all be much better alternatives to iRacing as things stand.

It's funny that after all these years, the thing i criticized most vociferously in the beginning, the MP service aspect, turns out to be the only bit of iRacing that i like.

The driving aspect is a massive disappointment. The NTM is just as bad as the OTM. Worse in several respects. The FFB in the cars with the NTM is rubbish. I just don't want to spend time on track any more.

Motegi is the first road course i didn't bother buying, and i wont be re-subbing when this one runs out. My time with iRacing is coming to an end.

Assetto Corsa and rF2 may not have the MP service, but i'm sure i'll find a league or two to race in and actually get back to enjoying driving sim cars that make some sense again.

I'm in the same boat, there are a couple of cars that are enjoyable to drive, but not really because they're realistic. Assetto is what I'm really looking forward to, and I'm really enjoying the beta of RF2. Stu, if you find any decent leagues, let me know .

Quote from DeKo :

I'm in the same boat, there are a couple of cars that are enjoyable to drive, but not really because they're realistic. Assetto is what I'm really looking forward to, and I'm really enjoying the beta of RF2. Stu, if you find any decent leagues, let me know .

If you are interested in nKp, Racedepartment is active in this and running some leagues/fun races, iirc. Last time i checked, wednesday fun races were still going. It's good fun, but there is very few people and the event is sometimes cancelled, so any newcomers are surely welcome. And when Asseto comes, i think they will not hold back with any events too.
/ot

http://www.virtualr.net/iracin ... xploit-causes-controversy

Quote from PMD9409 :

http://www.virtualr.net/iracin ... xploit-causes-controversy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKm5xQyD2vE

(Couldn't we embed YT videos?).

Quote from PMD9409 :

http://www.virtualr.net/iracin ... xploit-causes-controversy

Quote :

iracing has a perfect physic... so we must fix the real-life physic.

Brilliant reply

Bought a three-month sub for iRacing last month, drove it twice online and haven't touched it since. Still just feels wrong to me. No fun.

Quote from J@tko :

Brilliant reply

What about this one:

Quote :

I have been saying this is silly for ages. I refer to it as the "Paris Hilton stomp", as I couldn't quite convey how far from the reality of skillful race-car driving this technique is. It's how I imagine Paris Hilton would react in an automatic 4x4 in a road accident - scream, and stomp on all the controls simultaneously.

But more seriously, Kunos' take on this:

Quote :

Interesting thread, the good old hit the brakes to save a spin debate :P

Some thoughts about the issure;

I hope you all realize that the car will align itself to have the side with less grip "forward", ie, in the direction of travel. 2 simple way to prove it: get a pen a throw it on the floor, it'll rotate in a pretty random fashion. Now stick a rubber to one side of the pen and repeate; the pen will always stop rotating straight away, align to the direction of travel with the rubber end BEHIND. The hard way to test this is to get in a parking lot, get some speed, hands off the steering wheel, pull the hand brake and woooosh, ur rear end will end up where your nose was pointing. Simple reason is that the rear tyres locked up loosing much of their directional grip. I hope we all agree about this.

So let's apply the hand brake thing in reverse, to our front tyres, if they lock up first what is it going to happen? Racing school will teach you that the car "won't turn with locked front tyres".. that is right, but it is only part of the story, actually, locked front tyres will align the car into the direction of travel; that is a more complete description.

So if you manage to lock your front without locking your rears you will save pretty much every slide, even a 180 degress slide (remember the car reaction with the hand brake? it swapped ends).

On to the sims now... how come it is so easy to get into this situation of locked fronts and unlocked rears in the sims? Let's see some of the reasons:

- Brake pedal resolution. In real life, brakes work with pressure and the limit is strength you have in ur foot. In a sim, the brake pressure is determined by a pedal position, with a definite minimum and maximum. The maximum is often set to maximise the control and usage of the brake pedal in normal situations. If a real car has a potential braking torque of X but this (as it often is the case) overpower the tyres potential grip the sim is often set to have the maximum a little above the tyre limit. This avoids having that terrible feeling of locking tyres as soon you touch the brake. It is often the case that this value is not enough to lock the rear tyres (more rotational inertia, more grip and all that stuff) so you get that behaviour you condemn. In real life this would be probably a "PANIC" manouver, just hit the brake as hard as you get.. but there is no "maximum" in real life, so it would be impossible to reproduce it in a constant way as in the sims. In RL you'll have to find the right pressure needed to lock the fronts and not the rears.. and consistently repeat this in a PANIC situation. Still asking yourself why nobody really bothers teaching this stuff? In RL you fix it the right way (tm): you avoid the spin in the first place

- Setup. If we get a 100% front brake bias, we'll be able to save pretty much every slide. Is it cheating? No, it's just stupid! it means we're giving up optimal brake distribution (thus, lap times) to save our asses when we make a mistake. No driver nor engineer in with a sane brain would even think about this.

- Finally, potential software bugs. It happens, I've been there all my life . It's important to make sure a rear tyre at high slip angles will lock instantly even with very low braking torque. But heavy front biased braking and gas on will still save the slide if the brake pedal maximum is set too low.

Want to prove all these things right? Get in your favourite sim and set the brake gain as high as you can ( you should be able to lock tyres with 20% brake pressure) then slide, brake hard and watch the car completing the spin slowly coming to a stop , just as we see on TV.

Sorry for the rant.. I love this topic :P

Quote from PMD9409 :

http://www.virtualr.net/iracin ... xploit-causes-controversy

As much as the 2FMSH is a load of crap, VirtualR trying to make a story out of it is a pretty low blow.

Yeah they are 10 years behind anyways. NR2002 and NR2003 suffered from the exact same issue.

This is all i have to say afte ... his 2FMSH "bug"

(I have never played iRacing, so i'm not defending it)

Also, this works in LFS as well, you can try it with a mouse and a keyboard, no steering wheel required.

Quote from The Moose :

As much as the 2FMSH is a load of crap, VirtualR trying to make a story out of it is a pretty low blow.

yeah, it's not as if the same doesn't happen in many other sims too. Weird one for virtualR to put out.