Quote from Becky Rose :

Firstly opprosition 8 does punish people, there are married gay couples with families in California right now who will loose their married status.

I believe that's not correct. The couples who were already married will not have their marriages revoked if Oppressition 8 is accepted:

Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_8 :

According to Joan Hollinger, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law, "Constitutional scholars agree that the amendment cannot be effective retroactively."

Quote from JeffR :

The point here is benefits versus rights.

Rubbish. Be it about benefits or rights, it's still discrimination.

Quote from JeffR :

Homosexual attraction is probably not a choice. Homosexual behavior is a choice. Alternate lifestyles are a choice.

Living an alternative lifestyle is a behavioral choice made by the people that choose to do so.

In that case, please give up your lifestyle of a conservative heterosexual.

You seem to think you have a right to tell other people how to lead their life, for no other reason than that the majority has other preferences.

There are indications that this guy went mad because of a previous crime which also involved guns:

Quote :

He told police he had been robbed and shot in the past year.

"He wasn't going to be robbed again, and he wasn't going to be shot again," Patterson said Saturday at a news conference.

So stricter gun control might have prevented this man from going insane in the first place.

Jeff, you do realize that your arguments can also be used on negroes? They're born that way, they're a minority, they have a subculture, some kinds of unwanted behavior is more prevalent among blacks, ... Everything you need to declare them "abnormal", and deny them full rights on whatever you wish.

And about the Constitution: when the Founding Fathers wrote about the rights of every man, they probably weren't thinking of women or slaves.

Quote from Becky Rose :

You're all neo Conservative bible bashing christians with a narrow minded world view

It's an abnormality, but they say it can be cured by forced reading of Richard Dawkins books while enjoying a reefer.

W4H, do any of these descriptions apply to you?

1. You're thinking this is the time to choose your path in life -- who to love, what studies, which career, etc. -- but you're afraid to make a choice. You feel you will get only one chance, so you choice needs to be perfect, and there's no compass telling you which way is best.

2. The path had been set out for you, either by your parents or by society as whole, but lately that has started to feel wrong.

Quote :

Why do people feel the need to have a girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other, anyway?

If you are wondering about that, then perhaps it's best to not go looking for a GF. But my answer to that would be: For company. Really, really good company that may/will turn out to be love.

You guys forgot the Birthday Party.
And the Gun Club.
And the Doors.
And ... and ... :cry: :weeping:

Quote from JeffR :

Although homosexuality is tolerated, isn't it really a case of the brain being wired a bit wrong (or at least differently)? Almost all of the reasons used to explain why some people are homosexual also apply to pedaphiles (they were born that way). Pedaphile behavior isn't accepeted because most societies have passed moral laws based on the concept of age of consent.

The operative word being "consent". If two persons have sex but one of them is incapable to decide for him/herself, then it should be forbidden. That not only holds for sex with minors, but also for people who are mentally handicapped, or drugged. But if two mature men decide to have sex because they enjoy it, then what would you have against it?

Quote :

Homosexual behavior is now tolerated, but it doesn't need to be promoted as a normal alternative.

That's a non sequitur if I ever saw one.

Quote from CodieMorgan :

What are you in the mood for right now? Im all up for some chicken!

Here you are.

Quote from titanLS :

Let's get a pig drunk and fire it up into the air, shall we?...

Yes, as research. I think they wanted to find out if a body can withstand high accelerations, like on an astronaut's body during launch. They sedate the pig to make sure that it won't die from stress. It may look odd, but it's not crazy.

Quote from flymike91 :

What you're saying is, if you don't tell little Billy why Steve has two mothers, he'll be depressed for life and kill himself. Thats quite a stretch, no?

I meant that if Billy is gay -- which is determined at or before birth AFAIK -- and he is told that gays are abnormal/sinful/dirty, then that is damaging and it might drive him into depression. But if you tell him that being straight or gay are options that are open to anyone, then he is free to discover his own feelings (at whatever age those may come).

You don't believe that it's harmful? Imagine you live in a country where being gay is the norm, and you are forced to choose yourself a same-sex partner, even though you know you can only love women.

Quote from SamH :

You may not be accepting of it, Mike, but your kids WILL be enlightened and freed from your prejudices

Don't worry, they'll get some new ones.

Quote from Hankstar :

Prop 8 is discriminatory, bigoted, ignorant, paranoid, anti-human, anti-civil rights and I hope it gets squashed.

Hank, much as I am against Proposition 8 and I can see why you're passionate about this: I think it helps if you try to understand how the other side thinks, instead of demonizing them.

Jonathan Haidt has done some interesting research on what separates conservatives from liberals, in terms of morality. Quoting from this article:

Quote :

Suppose your next-door neighbor puts up a large sign in her front yard that says "Cable television will destroy society." You ask her to explain the sign, and she replies, "Cables are an affront to the god Thoth. They radiate theta waves, which make people sterile." You ask her to explain how a low voltage, electrically-shielded coaxial cable can make anyone sterile, but she changes the subject. [...] Your neighbor is clearly delusional and possibly schizophrenic. She is responding to forces, threats, and agents that simply do not exist.

But now suppose another neighbor puts up a large sign in his front yard that says "Gay marriage will destroy society." You ask him to explain the sign, and he replies, "Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Gay marriage will undermine marriage, the institution upon which our society rests." You ask him to explain how allowing two people to marry who are in love and of the same sex will harm other marriages, but he changes the subject. Because your neighbor is not alone in his beliefs, he does not meet the DSM-IV criteria for delusion. However, you might well consider your homophobic neighbor almost as delusional, and probably more offensive, than your cable-fearing neighbor. He, too, seems to be responding to forces, threats, and agents that do not exist, only in this case his widely shared beliefs have real victims: the millions of men and women who are prohibited from marrying the people they love, and who are treated unjustly in matters of family law and social prestige. If only there were some way to break through your neighbor's delusions — some moral equivalent of Thorazine — which would help him see the facts as you see them.

But what makes you so certain that you see the moral world as it really is?

Going OT...

Quote :

"apply liberally" means that you rub lotion on while quoting George Carlin stand-up routines or watching Stephen Colbert.

OK, now define "conservative estimate", if you dare.

Quote from flymike91 :

In Massachusetts they are teaching kindergartners about homosexuality.

Do they teach the kids about anal sex and darkrooms? Or do they tell stories like "boy meets boy and they love each other deeply?"

Quote :

I'm worried about kindergartners being taught any form of sexuality.

Then you probably also object to the part where Cinderella marries the Prince.

Quote :

I don't think it is bigoted to want your child to go through their pre-pubescent years without learning homosexuality in school.

I think it is. When my kids were in kindergarten, they noticed that some kids have two moms. If your child brings up the subject, you can say that some people are built that way, and that it's OK. If you don't then your kid may be struggling with its feelings as it grows up, even to the point of depression and suicide. Or, like in the old days, the kid could deny its feelings, marry someone and live unhappily ever after.

Quote from flymike91 :

I care because people of the opposite sex are supposed to be together. Children should be brought up by men and women. [...] Heterosexuality is not the way God intended, it is the way nature intended. [...] On a biological level, humans couple to reproduce and raise offspring. Anything other than that is not normal.

These arguments are easy to refute.

• "It is not normal" - So what? Why should anything that is outside the average be forbidden? If you want to forbid something, you need to prove that it is harmful.
  
• "It is bad for children to grow up in a same-sex family" - We accept single-parent families. It won't harm if a kid has two loving mothers instead of one.
  
• "It is against God's wishes" - God has been a bit careless, and has left His words open to many interpretations. Hard to say which one is correct.
  
• "It is against nature" - You can't base your morals on things that happen in nature. Cannibalism, rape and infanticide are also natural, and even logically justifiable.
  
• "The purpose of marriage is to have children and raise them" - Same-sex couples can also have children (or adopt them). Besides, women who are past their reproductive age are still allowed to marry, and divorce is not mandatory if a couple is infertile.
  

The only real reason that I can see is that you, as a conservative, do not like things to change too fast. Conservatives fear that fast change will damage the fabric of society, and lead to catastrophe. And same-sex marriage is so far outside "normal" (or what you have been brought up to see as normal) that you do not like it, instinctively.

Quote :

Children under 13 do not need to be taught homosexuality

If it is harmful to teach heterosexually-oriented kids that homosexuality is acceptable, then it is also harmful to teach homosexually-oriented children that heterosexuality is the only option.

BTW, if you think that kids can be made to doubt their orientation by "propaganda":

Quote from Wikipedia :

The American Psychological Association has stated "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

Quote from wien :

The problems come up if you want to move to another state. You cannot "transfer" your civil union to the other state and get the same benefits there. That only applies to marriages, so using the word "marriage" is essential to ensuring equal rights.

It does not ensure equal rights, I think. Proposition 8 also denies validity to same-sex marriages from other states. So a gay couple that moves from Massachusetts to California would not get their marriage recognized.

Quote from Jertje :

It's not normal in that it does not make biological sense to be attracted to the same sex, afaik.

Given the number of animals where homose ... haviour has been observed, you can only conclude that it does make sense. Only, our grasp of "biological sense" is too limited.

Before someone uses this as an argument in the debate, I should point out that infanticide is also natural: it has been observed widely among animals, and in some circumstances it makes evolutionary sense (i.e. it produces more offspring).

Quote from flymike91 :

A few years ago, a similar proposition banned gay marriage and passed by 61% but was overturned by 4 activist judges. 4 million votes vs 4 judges. is that democracy?

Yes, it is. The Supreme Court struck down Proposition 22 because it was in conflict with the consitution, IIRC. If the people of California want to ban same-sex marriage, they need to change the constitution. (Which is what Proposition 8 is about.)

The judges simply did what is their primary task: guard the consistency of the laws. This is part of the normal process of creating laws in a democracy. Calling the judges "activists" is cheap. It makes you look like a whiner.

Quote from flymike91 :

your argument assumes that gay people cannot be married in CA, which is true, but they can be domestic partners and have the exact same rights.

Let me get his straight. There are two types of marriage, in which the partners have exactly the same rights? But one type of marriage is called marriage and the other not. So gay couples can effectively be married, with every right that belongs to it, except being called "married"? That's ridiculous, or rather, hypocritical. If the majority is against recognition of same-sex couples, then they should ban this too.

Looks like Window Washer removed a couple of bitmaps from the browser cache, that were used for the forum pages. Have you tried to switch off all "browser cleaning" in Window Washer?

BTW, I wonder what Window Washer can add to the privacy features that Firefox has. You've already got cookie control, clearing private data, etc.

I used Moneybookers* and it worked quite well. All you need is a bank account, and some patience to wait for the transfer to take place.

* I'm not sure but I think that was the name. You can find it on the LFS main site, with instructions.

This is according to the script, I guess. FIA wants to reduce the advantage that a big budget gives you, so it's only natural that the teams with the largest budgets will object. Especially Ferrari, because the engine is traditionally the strongest point of their cars.

Or perhaps this is an "honourable" way to retreat from F1 without mentioning the economic crisis.

Last edited by wsinda, Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:42. Reason : typo

Quote from Kid222 :

BTW. are there some go-kart tracks?

http://www.karting.nl/kartbane ... zicht_indoor_kartbaan.php

Quote from AndroidXP :

Fun fact: pretty much every McDonald's I strolled by was in close vicinity to a sex shop. Look right, burgers, look left, dildos. Ooook.

It's the Red Meat district.

If you're looking for a place to eat, try an Indonesian restaurant. Thanks to our colonial heritage <ahem>, you can get a pretty good Rijsttafel in Amsterdam. And if you dont like Indonesian cuisine, try one of the other 52 nationalities. (If you don't like food there is also a McDonald's.)

Quote from Shotglass :

when the choice comes down to either hell or spending every sunday with the born again types hell doesnt sound all that bad an option tbh

... and the knowledge that these same types go to heaven when they die makes heaven a lot less attractive.

No need to ridicule the OP. He wants an S2 license and is willing to work for it. He offers to make someone a website in exchange for an S2 voucher. Any constructive replies?