Quote from GAVD999 :

Are you purposely picking messages that you can try and justify your opinion with?

As someone else mentioned, the Fo8 wr at bl1 is set with mouse, not an easy combo...

and how many other hardest wrs are set by wheel?

i tell you the lfs' hardest combo; fbm+blackwood; first top 7 = wheel.

most of the WRs = wheel.

simply compare wheel and mouse = turning: almost same
throttle: wheel is advantaged, mouse has throttle on and off
braking: wheel is advantaged, mouse has brake on and off.
wheel: you can feel, mouse: you cant feel.

that is not my point actually. i should be racing with a wheel so its my fault i am not. so we can just head back to the topic.

Quote from MadCatX :

I honestly don't know if I should laugh or feel sad for you. These are some VERY bad arguments...


Be that as it may, your assumption that the wheel will automatically make you faster than a mouse or keyboard is wrong. Let's look at some hard numbers. A racer names Ulisse drove hotlaps on KY Oval in all cars available in S2. These are his stats:

There is no defined way to play LFS properly. People are free to enjoy LFS in any way the please as long as they don't break EULA.

hehe, you are funny to prove how mouse is fast you are showing me an oval track, in which there is almost no braking and accelerating, the areas where wheel users get the real advantage in

that is really pathetic of you to show me an oval track hotlap. you are the same guy right, the guy who raced 3 years ago in lfs, so bored that only coming on forums to ''laugh'' at someone make fun or talk. i am here to play this sim, you are here to chat. go find a chatroom please. anyway. we can get back to the topic.

there are defined views for sure, and forces view is to analyse the car, it is not designed so people with lower pc specs can play. nor its designed as a view. its a car analyser and that is it.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:02.

Quote from TFalke55 :

ok, sorry my bad, it is covered. Still I do race in a fcv league which has seen grid sizes of 20 this season. Still you are not faster with force view then with tyres only in custom view, where you also just see the tyres. Yet, if someone uses force view, all cars loose their visiual dimensions which will, unless you are good at guessing these. At the end of the day, driving is less of seeing but more of feeling the track. In DTM or in formula cars in real life, the guys don't see the track, as the edge of the cockpits are usually in the visual horizon.

-i am talking on behalf of mouse and keyboard drivers;

i tried this, when you use the tyre view, you dont feel the car or the direction of your car as good as you do in forces view. i tried to help it using the virtual steering gauge but it is nowhere as good as seeing the wheel itself. seeing only tyres makes you lose it. you totally lose the direction of your car, if you have a wheel you probably wont lose the direction of the car. but with mouse it is totally impossible to drive with only tyres view.

Quote from Anthoop :

Did you know that you could use a mouse to steer and pedals for throttle/brake and a button for clutch and it will tell you "W"...wheel...?
Did you know that there are many way to make it look like you are using a wheel?
Did you try changing your button rate at all (for throttle/brake (presuming you are using mouse))?

If you have only driven the mileage/cars/tracks that I can see from looking at your LFS data....then I would say you have a lot to learn young padawan....it is a great game...have fun.

1- well, its the same as low degree wheel yet, you still need to be more sensible with mouse.
2- then this should be fixed, fight for it like i do. but in your thread.
3- try to go half-throttle for 2 seconds using this so called button rate. it is nothing. even if it would work like you imagined in your mind, i'd have to change it to 10.00 on the straights, then back to 5.00 on certain turns. however, button rate is just the time you hit the gas pedal, it doesnt give 100% for the first moment, after that it IS like 100%.

all in all, button control rate has no use unless your car oversteers under acceleration, you can make it 2.00 so it will give your car lower power for a very very short amount of time when you hit the throttle.

Quote from TFalke55 :

Maybe a major reason why force view is no real part of LFS racing is that you cannot race with it. With not seeing the edges of the cars around you, you are either good at guessing, or you leave it off, as you have fights doorhandle to doorhandle. Moreover, FCV has nothing to do with force mode, as it is not covered by the FCV rules.

this habit of having an opinion without the knowledge is very common here. you are still saying YOU cannot race with it while others can, and others like to see the front tyres and that are faster with this mode. what you still have to deny?

and one more opinion of yours w/o knowledge;

it IS covered with fcv rules, trust me in a fcv enabled server you cant use forces view. thats the reason ALL of the fcv servers are empty.

Quote from Inouva :

so this is how S.E.T.H drive in real life


sorry for offtopic

@S.E.T.H
Just answer this, when you drive your real car in real life how do you do it?, since you cant see the wheels of the car at any moment unless you pullout your head over the windows and see it..?

serioulsy

Flame, plz close this thread, is a waste of bits

no, its a serious discussion about the sim itself. but for sure it tastes bad when kids like you come around and try to be stand up comedians.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

incorrect

no, it is correct

most of the WR holders are wheel drivers. not just that, mouse drivers have 2 throttle options: on and off, have 2 braking options: brake on, or no brake at all! whereas wheel users can adjust them in slow corners, going much faster and smoother. tyre usage is also huge advantage because with mouse no matter how smooth you try to drive, your soft tyres will be finished in couple of laps. even in an hotlap if your set is adjusted for hotlaps you will lose your tyres before you finish the lap.

Quote from O.Versteer :

there are no FCV servers becaues it excludes those with custom views. and drivers who race with racing line enabled
even i switch back and forth between custom and cockpit view to turn on/off mirrors. on straights i can turn off forces to avoid the front wing force obscuring my view.
i may switch to heli cam to check surrounding cars or even tab into other cars (how unrealistic!) if nothing's happening around me on straights.

there is really no advantage in forces view. don't look at your front tyres while cornering, instead get a feel how wide your car is.

i can get such fps rates even without changing my pc. run multiple games or use the onboard graphics card its very easy. if you can afford internet i am sure you can afford a pc that can run a game with 8 years old graphics.

so dont get vex when i say you cant do the same times in a fcv enabled server. its not about the frame rates. you just wont be able to do it. even if you had a laptop that would give you the standard 60 fps on the highest graphic effects, you wouldnt be able to do the same laptimes with force cockpit view. its just so clear and dont worry dido_bmw is doing the same like you. thats why only both of you are faster than the rest. maybe there are forces view users that are slow i dont know. what i know clearly is; even if you had the fps rate you wanted, in a FCV server you will not even get close to the times you make in regular servers.

Forces view is neither a view to drive nor a helper for people with lower pc specialties. it IS a car analyser and thats the way it should stay, and it should be used for the mentioned purpose. ''my pc is bad so i need to use it'' its just an excuse. if you dont have a pc that can run such a low spec sim properly just leave, or just admit you are that fast because of that mode.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Thu, 24 Oct 2013 17:00.

Quote from O.Versteer :

stahp plis!
i need forces view to keep frame rates playable on my craptop.
all your theories about this view have been proven wrong.

actually, no. you really need forces view to keep the frame rates high? because lfs has so much graphic effects and so hard on the computer right? the graphics have been the same since 2005 which means, 8 years? you have a laptop from what, ancient times?

do you wanna race me in a FCW server, and do the same laptimes in there or your frame rate wont let you in a server with just 2 cars? :grumpy:

Quote from Anthoop :

I say ban the mouse before killing off alternative veiws.

a keyboard user will be faster with mouse, a mouse driver will be faster with wheel. so a mouse driver can only get dis-advantage using it. on the other hand forces view will give you advantage.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Wed, 23 Oct 2013 21:15.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

So if I use force mode the UF1 and the BF1 handle and look like exactly the same?

It's just plain stupid to claim this crap when you haven't tried any other cars except the demo bicycles..

where did i say it would handle the same? its really stupid to write without reading or thinking. why some people here have difficulty of comprehending?

and the view; althought what i meant same type cars on the track would look the same with forces view regardless of the skins used, even the different type of cars will look quite similar. and nobody really races in FCW enabled servers. so all in all if i am gonna use this sim, i am gonna have to use forces view, which i dont like at all.

Quote from MousemanLV :

It's up to the driver to choose what kind of settings he likes to use. I like to use cockpit view most of my driving experience. If the game offers many other opportunities how to set up your game, why not use them? Forcing some new driver to use cockpit view all the time would be stupid. Not all drivers want to use the same exact thing over and over again. Diversity makes it more fun and enjoyable.

Right. But we all are talking about views here. some guy joking about helicopter view, you can use it and i dont think it should be banned because its a view. Forces is not a view and people use it as a view. its for setup making and analysing the car. you can use tire view without the body i dont care. its not that much advantage. the best view is the cockpit view where you can see the wheel and front tires. with force mode you see the driver, wheel, and tyres. best view you could possibly get, yet its not a view.

and unlike other types, its making all of the other cars look the same. so even this takes it to another level because its killing the realism. Just think i want to beat a guy who uses force mode, i'll be forced to use it as well just what happens when another guy watches me race in this sim? he'll call this bulls***. Where did all my skins go i used on my car? they are now moving sticks.

i shared some replays already some fool still joking about force mode giving advantage only to me

http://uppit.com/s07zpgrplyl4/proof_1.mpr
http://uppit.com/8p86v3vjzoeo/proof_2.mpr

Quote from Eclipsed :

Do you read too?


Anyway,I see,where this is going - if this very evil of all modes would disabled,you think you'll be the fastest driver of them all,as only you drive the pure realism and everyone else cheats with the mighty force mode. Oh,dude,you would be SOOOOOOOOO disapointed...

it has been 2 years and i am not really suprised of your inability to comprehend check out what i wrote 2 years ago when you were still repeating the same thing like a parrot;

Quote :

Originally Posted by Eclipsed
Imagine,how dissapointed would he be,if this evil force would be removed and everyone still would drive same pace and still beat him on track?


S.E.T.H

i'd LOVE to be proven wrong and buy s2 the other day

another;

Quote :

S.E.T.H
you talk as if i blame everyone that is faster than me of using Force mode. no, i do not. there are faster people obviously. and i am for sure not the fastest. probably will never be. but this is not what i am talking about. there are still some people who gets advantage from it. and i dont really understand what you are against when i say it should at least be blocked on ''hotlap'' mode.

one more;

Quote :

there are people that is faster than me. and i am for sure not the fastest and will never be. there are people that can beat me without F mode.

i am saying f mode gives advantage, and you are saying ''use it then, make some wrs, show us'' how stupid is that approaching? i dont even wanna be disturbed explaining again omg.

look what you had said back then before victor replied to the thread. you have no idea how things work really.

''Dude,stop waisting your precious time here,as noone (including developers) won't listen about any complaints to someone,who hasn't even bought this software. And if you're faster with this dark side of force,the problem deffinitely is in your side as for most drivers it doesn't help!''

and after him saying that Victor (developer) replies to the thread.


its very simple, in fact, you bring me 100 racers in fbm blackwood, i'll beat 70% of them. you bring me 100 racers in a fcw enabled server, i'll beat 95% of them. very simple. problem is doesnt matter how much i explain when you have such an inability you wont understand. so thats the last time i reply to you post. gluck



and some proofs already for the people;

http://uppit.com/s07zpgrplyl4/proof_1.mpr
http://uppit.com/8p86v3vjzoeo/proof_2.mpr

second replay watch the end. the other guy we mention as michael is o.versteer see how fast he is. i am not saying he is fast only because he uses the mode, but he wont be as fast without it. and that means he gets advantage. he told me himself that he is using forces view. and also dido_bmw from the server. he uses forces view as well. and back then l@gger had said he was using it to get an advantage, many people are saying that they are using and there are some children in the forum without knowledge but opinion. you should have an opinion about something you know. you cant have the right opinion without knowledge, see, you said no advantage, i just proved to you by just logging in to the server for 10 minutes. you know how many replays i can put here in 1 week? many.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:04.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Start your own server, use force cockpit view mode, write an InSim which records lap timings and start your own S.E.T.H truly realistic hardcore to the bone super hotlap competition.

I'm sure nobody is interested.

its not about starting my own server. when you start a server with force cockpit mode enabled nobody comes and races. and that is the point of the whole argument. the point is almost everyone is using forces mode. the bad part of it is, its turning all of the cars in track into ridiculous images. 4 tyres and 4 sticks and a driver sitting on air.

never in a sim there is such a feature. it should not be used in races or hotlaps. or just turn on the fcw in your server and see how nobody will race, or even if they do, they'll do slower laptimes. but guess what, it'll be more fun and they will be racing with actual cars. not only tyres. there are skins to show and cars to see, but the ones using that feature are killing the realism and other features of the sim. forcing others to use it as well because they cant compete with such view in a regular cockpit. in racing, its all about the feel not sight. that is why in F1 there is really a little view of the road. but they look like they magically know the limits.

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

You are not the guy who is enough worth of me to tell any facts

but yes you are right about what you mean. Still, not enough.

The point is that the whole thread is fun to read regardless of anything else

you worth of me what? pfff, funny guy. no chance. better learn english so you will have something to say.

Quote from Eclipsed :

I'm using follow view and that helped me to win LFSCART Series champion title. Ban me!

Chicaka!

its not about banning, its about sending a message.

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

Oh yeah! Thanks haha!

It is even more funny to read whole posts afterwards, how people including me tries to tell the facts as they are

Yeah I cracked myself up

look, listen, i know you are capable of understanding; instead of making jokes, look at the facts;

do you remember, in my first post some time ago that l@gger said he was using it and he was pretty good at it.

do you know how many people i ask in demo servers if they use the forces view or not, to get mostly positive answers?

do you know how many people are playing in force cockpit mode servers and how many in servers with free view? former being zero people.

now that after this moment to combat your stupid jokes i will start getting proofs from servers. not that i say YOU are using forces mode, you might not. but there are other people who are killing the realism and getting advantage.

from this day forward i'll start asking and getting answers from the players.

Quote from MadCatX :

Oh, and just when I thought there were no more skeletons in the closet...


Do you have any evidence to back this claim up with or is it just your biased guess based on the fact that half the guys you're racing against are faster than you? What would be the point of removing the forces view when we have fully customizable camera that can even be controlled by some external application? If this feature provided such a huge advantage, people would just create a simple hack to get it back if it was removed.

probably because of the people like you a simple thread turns into a flaming war. at least, have the decency to play the game you think you know so much about. your last race was 3.5 years ago. and sadly for you, i am slow not anymore. i have 1.12.35 pb in blackwood fbm which i think you will never be able to do. and i am faster than 90% of the people i am racing with. and probably know about the server more than you and the people in it way more than you because i am coming here to race while you are coming here to pass your time probably you are bored so much.

i dont care about external hacks if you go this way you cant go out of it. because there are hacks can be done anywhere so there is no end to it.

about your fully customized camera, no camera ever gives the advantage to you that force mode + cockpit does. i am talking by my experience now.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Sat, 12 Oct 2013 23:19.

i am really interested with the future of this view as i know many players in demo, i'd say more than 60% are using the forces view to gain advantage. and you can see this already because almost none of the servers have the ''force cockpit view'' mode activated. the ones which activated this had their servers left out in the cold. you can also go and ask in the servers, maybe some of them will say no but when you disable forces mode their times will drop.

will it still be available in hotlap mode? i think in hotlap mode cockpit view should be the only available view. its such a turn off for me to have this kind of thing in such a great sim.

i am also going faster using this view because there is more sight. as the hotlaps will be reset it will be logical to do this update at that time, probably with the tyre physics update, just as how the racing line is disabled, forces view should be disabled as well.

people generally use this view like cockpit + forces, getting the advantages of cockpit + huge sight. really a turn off. please devs take a look at this. i for one, will decide buying or not buying the game according to the situation of this mode after the updates. this is not in anyway a threatening or something. this is just my humble opinion i truly believe will make LFS even more awesome sim.

what i am saying is, make a new menu in the game, and make the forces view available only in there. it would be like an advanced setup making menu that you can test your car and that will have an interest among the players who dont like making their own setups. or for those who thinks the making of setups is hard.

Quote from Eclipsed :

Oh,now I remember you - you're the force mode dude! Where have you been? We haven't had that much lough for a while...

you didnt seem like you were having fun back then i hope you can actually have fun this time

now that Scawen is here and seems very determined to get this game back alive i would have a few humble suggestions.

Connection

LFS should demand more internet connection, so online experience will be smoother and replays will be smooth as well. I'd try making a LFS video but with this kind of replays the wheel in onboard shots look weird and laggy even though in reality its not how the sim is.

Reaction Times

a list of the reaction times shown just after the green light is on. might be top 5 for each race. would be interesting to see the reflexes of the racers at the start of every race. and if its not on somewhere already, Scawen can take the patent of this i hold no credits just like the ghost car.


Hotlapping

Should be done with restricted view. Probably Force Cockpit. And Forces mode(activated with F while in the car) should not be allowed. So that we will not see people doing laptimes with their tyres ridiculously close to the grass. because after the tyre update all the hotlaps will be reset, i am really hoping Scawen does this.

also in races forces view should not be allowed. yes, after 1.5 years i still think the same way, now i have more experience and i am under a second close to the ridiculous WR of blackwood-fbm. i am always talking to the guys in the server and there are amazingly fast guys simply saying that they are using forces view.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Sat, 19 Oct 2013 14:27. Reason : the God.

as a demo racer i have no power here but i will still have my say

just by reading the comments only, i am on your side heretic,
and cargame.nl probably thinks as lfs is going down and he is running the crowded servers even the devs need him. the guy is just politely telling something and look at these abusive speech used by cargame;

-you are on drugs
-if you drive like an ass like you did (clearly another abusive comment)
-before i stop giving attention to this topic (oh, please :facepalm
-Then some guy from Nepal pops up and thinks he is important enough to redirect -the attention of bla bla (he is as important as any of us)
-fine buy a cake and go celebrate it (arrogant)

and ofc his first post in his site about the replays;

-This must be the most retarded report of the week

just reading what this guy wrote made me never wanna race in his server when i will have s2. a true example of what a server runner shouldnt act like. now think about what would have happened if you were a grown up and explained the situation to lohani instead of calling certain things retarded, say;

heretic, we have certain rules in our server and you shouldnt have done this, and that, all in all, you are wrong in this, so please take care.

and i think there is nothing wrong with lohani's attitude and he'd probably understand his fault (if he is even faulty) and move on.

a side note, i know now after scawen lfs hopefully will be going upwards. there will be more servers to race in and more people to race with.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:54. Reason : sitenote

okay. my final post then.

thanks Victor for caring about the player and replying.

no thank for those who sent useless messages and swor me, or make fun of it

thanks alot for those who tried to explain to me

thanks alot for Nilex [FU]Nilex having me in a demo server and explaining me so much about the game.

i'll try and be fast, and hopefully if i like it, i'll buy S2.

will let you know about my improvements in game. if i find some glitches, i'll be here as you know

last point of mine;

i am not a troll.

i am not hungry for attention.
i'd still like it to be removed in hotlapping and online or if it is not possible;

i'd request force mode user should see only his car with sticks + tires.

i don't want to be seen sitting in air in the middle of 4 tires.

thanks.

now you can listen to this song of Victory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0kGAz6HYM8

see you guys around!

Quote from Victor :

Then why would he use it in the first place? It's not meant to be used while racing. It's meant to be used to test your setup changes. Noone uses it while racing because it's not realistic or convenient. It can even be considered distracting.


Not right now, no. That information is not stored inside hotlap files. It will also be a bit problematic to store it, because when would it be considered 'having used the forces mode'? It can be toggled at will. Would 1 second usage tag a hotlap as being raced in Forces view?
No, I'm sorry, but this is going way too far for something I don't believe is a problem to begin with.

you know people want more, if i can go faster with that mode, i don't care if it is realistic or not i'd go for it, but i'd not have fun thats why i dont use it. i dont agree with you when you say that noone uses it. there is already a guy under the thread who used it - L@gger, and IMOL too, probably using it.

Quote from Victor :

Wasn't sure about weighing in here, but I have to agree fully with this post.
I personally think forces view is way too distracting to race with. I have to look ahead of me to anticipate what's coming. Not look at what's going on with the car right now. I would be too late to react and as such forces view would slow me down, not speed me up.

S.E.T.H. I think there's a little wisdom in seeing so much opposition from people who have been very serious racing sim drivers for years, and who are telling you that it doesn't make you faster. Except for those who are learning, the mentioned tools can help you improve your driving. But those will only take you so far. The last distance to cover to become a really good racer comes from within yourself. It won't be delivered to you by features such as forces view while driving.

--
A moderation note in general : this thread already started a little heated, so it's not weird to see heated replies. But every time I see a post that just says someone's a retard, I die a little inside. Why is that necessary? I'm in a good mood now, but don't be surprised if one day i apply an instant ban on such posters. I hate pointless aggression with a passion.

but force mode is something above view. a person who activates F mode, sees not only his car, but all the cars around as just tires and sticks. then there comes reality part, the reality disappears for a guy who uses such mode.

there is no custom view that enables you to see the wheel, see the tires but just not the car's body. so in that part i believe its an advantage

at the very least, can't you guys show it on hotlap rankings if force mode is used or not?

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

That should be enough...

one guy will not be enough, there are the ones that use and get advantage of it.

there are ones that does not use it + no other cheats and really fast respective people. >> the guy in the video drops in latter group probably.

Quote from Nilex :

I can prove as i said. Based on empirical scientific measurement. You could test yourself. All i ask is if you accept the proof, then your argument for partial removal becomes invalid as it does not provide advantage. You need to agree with me on this.
As for realism: turning force view off makes game acceptably realistic for you as I understand.

One more thing that i just thought of: you know force view does not change car's characteristics, right?

i know it doesnt change car's characteristics.

yeah turning f mode off makes it more realistic and affordable.

if you can really prove me that the people are not using it online + in hotlaps to get advantage, i'll stop mu course.

Last edited by S.E.T.H, Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:52.

Quote from Torben :

Well, if you attempt to do a hotlap, you will be doing hundreds of runs one after the other. Between runs you tend to tweak your setup. If you are a racer that uses the f-mode to check the new behaviour of the tyres, the suspension or such, you quickly press 'F' to check, press it again and probably restart the run.
Now, if F-Mode is removed in Hotlap mode, and you wanted to quickly check your setup-tweaks, you are required to quit hotlap mode, start single player (Practice), warm your tyres, check the forces, quit single player, start hotlap mode, and so forth.
It would be a nightmare!

And since no one is really interested in running the actual hotlap with f-mode on, nobody even got the idea it could be used as an advantage and thus requested its removal from the hotlap mode.

i talked about this, bring a test/setup environment in game, and put all of the features in there.

and i don't really know why we are able to see if brake help, auto clutch etc is used in hotlaps and we are not able to see if F mode is used or not.