Current clutch simulation, as Scawen said, works well in racing conditions and does its job. The overheating rate is fine imo - for example, I have no problems at all in longer races (I drive with mouse and use kb buttons to change gears and manually operate the clutch), unlike some whining wheel owners 
... Thus the clutch is fully raceable, as was said.
However, I think that while the rate of heating is realistic, actual situations when clutch slipping starts are not. As Cue-Ball stated, clutch must be stronger than torque of the engine and grip of the tyres. IRL slipping will occur when "riding" the clutch on take-ofs, hill starts, improperly changing gears - in short, when torque is applied while clutch is partially engaged (or has already been overheated, damaged, worn out). BUT the clutch wont slip (maybe very minimally), when it is fully clamped during take-ofs: IRL when you drop the clutch while reving the engine in say 3rd gear, the engine will immediately bog down and stall, but in LFS revs lower slowly, at the same time slipping and heating the clutch - just try that in XRG. So in this situation the clutch must stall the engine, but in LFS the engine slips the clutch.
This must be caused by two things. First, when engine is peaky or generally not powerful (low torque), it should bog down much faster and stall much easier than now (LX's and formulas moving on idle revs in 2nd gear and not stalling - wrong). Second, when considering powerful/torquey cars (XRT, FZ50), that is, when engine is strong enough not to be stalled/bog down when dropping the clutch in 2nd gear - road tires must lose grip and spin because their grip force will surely be lower that the torque of the engine and the clutch. So, this must be related to longitudinal tyre grip physics - they are a bit too difficult spin and they don't loose enough grip while spinning longitudinally.
My english isn't great, but I hope I explained this quite clear. I understand that Y is finished and it will be left as it is for now. I agree that the current system is raceable and drivable but it doesn't act like IRL in mentioned situations and thus isn't realistic. I just hope that this will be taken into account when engine simulation will be reworked and those longitudinal tyre problems will be fixed (which btw will fix not only standing starts, but also drifting and locked diff behavior imo)
p.s. if somebody doesn't agree on smthng, plz don't instantly flame - wouldn't mind discussing those physics/realism aspects in another thread if needed.
... Thus the clutch is fully raceable, as was said.However, I think that while the rate of heating is realistic, actual situations when clutch slipping starts are not. As Cue-Ball stated, clutch must be stronger than torque of the engine and grip of the tyres. IRL slipping will occur when "riding" the clutch on take-ofs, hill starts, improperly changing gears - in short, when torque is applied while clutch is partially engaged (or has already been overheated, damaged, worn out). BUT the clutch wont slip (maybe very minimally), when it is fully clamped during take-ofs: IRL when you drop the clutch while reving the engine in say 3rd gear, the engine will immediately bog down and stall, but in LFS revs lower slowly, at the same time slipping and heating the clutch - just try that in XRG. So in this situation the clutch must stall the engine, but in LFS the engine slips the clutch.
This must be caused by two things. First, when engine is peaky or generally not powerful (low torque), it should bog down much faster and stall much easier than now (LX's and formulas moving on idle revs in 2nd gear and not stalling - wrong). Second, when considering powerful/torquey cars (XRT, FZ50), that is, when engine is strong enough not to be stalled/bog down when dropping the clutch in 2nd gear - road tires must lose grip and spin because their grip force will surely be lower that the torque of the engine and the clutch. So, this must be related to longitudinal tyre grip physics - they are a bit too difficult spin and they don't loose enough grip while spinning longitudinally.
My english isn't great, but I hope I explained this quite clear. I understand that Y is finished and it will be left as it is for now. I agree that the current system is raceable and drivable but it doesn't act like IRL in mentioned situations and thus isn't realistic. I just hope that this will be taken into account when engine simulation will be reworked and those longitudinal tyre problems will be fixed (which btw will fix not only standing starts, but also drifting and locked diff behavior imo)
p.s. if somebody doesn't agree on smthng, plz don't instantly flame - wouldn't mind discussing those physics/realism aspects in another thread if needed.
I might add that there is also a problem with smoke - when viewing T1 from TV camera, the smoke is seen only above the fence and it is invisible through it.
Imo that's a common problem in LFS when handling transparency - for example painted lines on tracks(pit exit/entry lines and so on) aren't consistent - sometimes disappear when are seen through the visor on singleseaters. Of course those lines sometimes pop-up too close to the car to begin with, regardless of maximum lod setting...
Edit: attached two screenshots
Imo that's a common problem in LFS when handling transparency - for example painted lines on tracks(pit exit/entry lines and so on) aren't consistent - sometimes disappear when are seen through the visor on singleseaters. Of course those lines sometimes pop-up too close to the car to begin with, regardless of maximum lod setting...
Edit: attached two screenshots
Last edited by MarioX, .
The new icon looks ok in "icons" view, but looks low-res (as was posted) in "tiles" view, which is default in XP, when browsing folders...
The good thing is that this line isn't available in hotlapping and in proper online (with "proper" I mean servers with Forced Cockpit View option enabled). So only those that want to drive while sitting 10 meters behind the car and in the air, will be able to see this racing line 
.
I think most of you who are skeptical about this line thingy, seek for more realism and use incar view and thus we need not worry
. I think most of you who are skeptical about this line thingy, seek for more realism and use incar view and thus we need not worry
Didn't know where to post this and if it has been reported already...
Actually this bug (it can't be intentional, right?) was introduced in X10, but it's still the same in X30
In X mirrors looked normal on XRG, XRT, XRR . Here are two screens (X and X30):
Actually this bug (it can't be intentional, right?) was introduced in X10, but it's still the same in X30
In X mirrors looked normal on XRG, XRT, XRR . Here are two screens (X and X30):
definitely an important step into right direction... the direction of real hardcore simulation that is 
As you bumped it, I gave it a go...
After some tries, managed 1.24.86 while barely staying on track, so maybe I can get 1.23 too with practice
btw, I'm driving with mouse
After some tries, managed 1.24.86 while barely staying on track, so maybe I can get 1.23 too with practice
btw, I'm driving with mouse
I agree that the lack of REAL damage modeling is the main factor, ruining gameplay and immersion, but as current damage is just a placeholder(I hope so :schwitz
, I also would guess we'll have to wait for S3 to get updates in this area...
What else can/should be done now, are further physics improvements - more complex aerodynamics (body+undertray downforce on race cars and lift on road cars). That and some tyre physics changes (longitudinal grip) will hopefully make LFS driving experience more challenging, rewarding and realistic - high speed slides must be much harder to catch than now, when you can never "completely lose control", and drifting must require way more skill and throttle control than current "flick&slide" affair...
That's of course my own opinion
, I also would guess we'll have to wait for S3 to get updates in this area...What else can/should be done now, are further physics improvements - more complex aerodynamics (body+undertray downforce on race cars and lift on road cars). That and some tyre physics changes (longitudinal grip) will hopefully make LFS driving experience more challenging, rewarding and realistic - high speed slides must be much harder to catch than now, when you can never "completely lose control", and drifting must require way more skill and throttle control than current "flick&slide" affair...
That's of course my own opinion
!SPAM! : still 800 "very informative and useful" posts to go till we reach 2k, so keep writing...
Why car interiors can be added only through incompatible patch? I mean, it's 3d and texture update for car models - it doesn't affect physics and actual driving, thus no replay OOS. Or am I misunderstanding something? 
FXO = Opel Astra Coupe Turbo to be exact 
http://www.in.gr/auto/parousi ... to_big/Astra_Coupe_11.jpg
http://www.in.gr/auto/parousi ... to_big/Astra_Coupe_11.jpg
that explained it ...still hoping to see a possibility to tweak S2 cars on the same level as demo ones(not only engine output by modifying classes, like in that removed tweak x)
thanx for quick and honest answer
thanx for quick and honest answer
Last edited by MarioX, .
Reason : 've read the reply in other thread
I believe Equi is asking because of that attempt at tweak x that was removed... So imo you first have to build in working license protection system into your tweak, then send it to mods for approval and after getting a green light, release it for all us to enjoy
p.s. why is ProMod taking so long to show up (it was supposed to come after a couple of weeks some weeks ago, or I misunderstood something :shrug Anyway, take your time and make it as good as you can, Bob
p.s. why is ProMod taking so long to show up (it was supposed to come after a couple of weeks some weeks ago, or I misunderstood something :shrug
Anyway, take your time and make it as good as you can, Bob Looks nice from screens, I'll give it a try...
p.s. lietuvos veliavos jamaikoj turetu idomiai atrodyt
p.s. lietuvos veliavos jamaikoj turetu idomiai atrodyt
sorry for bump, but although I was using ppjoy in other sims for some time, I found "mouse joystick" to be better - you don't need to start separate program and leave it in the background every time you start your sim (it is necessary with ppjoy). mouse joystick is just special driver which enables games to 'see' mouse as game controller
here it is...
here it is...
deggis, I agree with your point about pr bs and if I seem overly optimistic or naive regarding gt5, it's because I "really want" it to finally bring the promised goods I know that it might not happen(again), so I'll wait until I read reviews by simracers of the final game before stepping into console land for the first time...
like someone said there seems to be nothing wrong with physics in the videos and in all gameplay vids driving was done in standard mode with slick tires, because these are set by default. and pro mode should be aimed at more realism(there were some comments about the major difference between the modes and pro being "a step into full simulation" by those who were fortunate to try it) - of course the question is to what extent
and yes, that excuse of not having damage got old and annoying long ago, but that is true... I'd guess that even PD themselves don't know atm what kind of damage they will be able to implement(all cars, only race cars, only physical or something else or none at all:schwitz
I know that it might not happen(again), so I'll wait until I read reviews by simracers of the final game before stepping into console land for the first time...like someone said there seems to be nothing wrong with physics in the videos and in all gameplay vids driving was done in standard mode with slick tires, because these are set by default. and pro mode should be aimed at more realism(there were some comments about the major difference between the modes and pro being "a step into full simulation" by those who were fortunate to try it) - of course the question is to what extent
and yes, that excuse of not having damage got old and annoying long ago, but that is true... I'd guess that even PD themselves don't know atm what kind of damage they will be able to implement(all cars, only race cars, only physical or something else or none at all:schwitz
word :D
I've been following after all GT5 news, facts, screens and videos that I could find so I had to say something here, seeing that sadly there are people whose ability to be objective and appreciative ends with LFS - maybe blind fanboyism or simply lack of knowledge about other sims/games (not offending anyone, but it is just the impression I often get in this forum :shrug
LFS imo has the best road car physics atm, but the problem for me is the lack of licensed cars and tracks. So there comes my interest in gran turismo, although I understand that the previous installments weren't sims (gt4 wasn't very far), there is a strong possibility that GT5 might finally deliver...
- this time it's really aimed at online (as well as offline) racing via ps network and home with all those nice features for community, tournaments and so on..
- there are going to be two selectable driving physics models: standard (all videos are from it)- updated and fixed gt4/gthd engine; professional - new complex physics model for hardcore simracers.
- 16 cars on track (of course not on par with pc sims, but when comparing to consoles and especially considering car modeling :O ) will be enough to have interesting races imo.
On topic: I think that graphics are simply stunning (best racing game gfx by far) with those 200k polygon car models, real interiors, subtly used effects as heat haze, swinging grass from the wind and NOT overdone IN GAME post processing. They said that current mirrors and driver hand animations are only placeholders and are being worked on. Plus they are planing changing weather and damage this time. So considering that what has been shown so far is only an unfinished build of a prologue of a final GT5, you have to be really shortminded(wrd?) to ignore it
p.s. sorry for a long post
LFS imo has the best road car physics atm, but the problem for me is the lack of licensed cars and tracks. So there comes my interest in gran turismo, although I understand that the previous installments weren't sims (gt4 wasn't very far), there is a strong possibility that GT5 might finally deliver...
- this time it's really aimed at online (as well as offline) racing via ps network and home with all those nice features for community, tournaments and so on..
- there are going to be two selectable driving physics models: standard (all videos are from it)- updated and fixed gt4/gthd engine; professional - new complex physics model for hardcore simracers.
- 16 cars on track (of course not on par with pc sims, but when comparing to consoles and especially considering car modeling :O ) will be enough to have interesting races imo.
On topic: I think that graphics are simply stunning (best racing game gfx by far) with those 200k polygon car models, real interiors, subtly used effects as heat haze, swinging grass from the wind and NOT overdone IN GAME post processing. They said that current mirrors and driver hand animations are only placeholders and are being worked on. Plus they are planing changing weather and damage this time. So considering that what has been shown so far is only an unfinished build of a prologue of a final GT5, you have to be really shortminded(wrd?) to ignore it
p.s. sorry for a long post
Simply have to say this...
Sorry, but I can't understand how some people are so ignorant when it comes to moding - instantly throwing those old stereotypical arguments against it (no offense).
"Go play rfactor" - yep, I have it installed only to try its mods (and with some exceptions they are rubbish).
The reason I play LFS is the physics and accessibility. I mostly drive alone on the track just for fun, sometimes try hotlaping, sometimes drift - the best and closest to real life physics of road cars among all available sims is why it's such a great fun even without racing. So all those "suggestions" to drive other games sound ridiculous.
Say I take xrg, give it specs of 200sx s13 with LFSTweak, put on some racing OZ wheels with BeSpoke and drive the hell out of it offline. Tell me HOW does this what i'm doing affects all you "moding enemies" ?
Now imagine one more similar program(working only for licensed users and only offline unless both clients and server uses it) which would load up different/custom car 3d model with textures when lfs is runing. That way it wouldn't be "real" moding in the sense of rF but rather an unofficial addon program for lfs like tweak and bespoke
Sorry, but I can't understand how some people are so ignorant when it comes to moding - instantly throwing those old stereotypical arguments against it (no offense).
"Go play rfactor" - yep, I have it installed only to try its mods (and with some exceptions they are rubbish).
The reason I play LFS is the physics and accessibility. I mostly drive alone on the track just for fun, sometimes try hotlaping, sometimes drift - the best and closest to real life physics of road cars among all available sims is why it's such a great fun even without racing. So all those "suggestions" to drive other games sound ridiculous
.Say I take xrg, give it specs of 200sx s13 with LFSTweak, put on some racing OZ wheels with BeSpoke and drive the hell out of it offline
. Tell me HOW does this what i'm doing affects all you "moding enemies" ?Now imagine one more similar program(working only for licensed users and only offline unless both clients and server uses it) which would load up different/custom car 3d model with textures when lfs is runing. That way it wouldn't be "real" moding in the sense of rF but rather an unofficial addon program for lfs like tweak and bespoke
nvm, that was directed to mantvisrep...
and you keep up the work(maybe some stitching texture and overall higher res would be great
)What XCNuse said...
(nereik iskart kaltint demo useriu krakinimu - jie gi gali texturint legaliai, tai tegu ir daro tas texturas tiem, kurie jas naudos - t.y. mum :razz
(nereik iskart kaltint demo useriu krakinimu - jie gi gali texturint legaliai, tai tegu ir daro tas texturas tiem, kurie jas naudos - t.y. mum :razz
Yep, the main problem with default view is the distance from our eyes to the screen - so we have to move view forward... But you still have to take a compromise and most of the time move camera some 25-35cm and not the whole 50cm to gel realistic adjusted view that still stays in the car in thus is "legal" like those two screenshots in the first page of this thread
Firstly, I want to say that I'm 110% for forced incar view, but of course with some adjustments allowed
I think that default incar view is good for mouse driving, because then LFS is played just like fps game - with mouse you control the virtual driver's "inside the monitor" hands which in turn hold the virtual steering wheel...
However, such view makes no sense when you are driving with a wheel, because the YOU are the driver and you hold a real steering wheel in your hands. So the monitor shows you only what is above the steering column - top of the dashboard and windscreen area above it.
You may also look at correct/realistic incar camera situation this way - your monitor screen surface is the longitudinal position of camera/in game driver's eyes, but your real eyes are some 40-60cm behind, so you have to move incar camera position forward to compensate for that and get the right view.
IMO there shouldn't be any lateral adjustment for default incar view, but there must be longitudinal one - say as much so the camera doesn't cross the glass os windscreen and doesn't go back into seat's headrest; for vertical axis I think +- 10-15cm would be enough(to prevent unrealistic T bar cam on single seaters) and up and down pitch should be allowed as it doesn't harm realism if you want to look between your legs while driving
Here I attach a quick "scheme": red - default, blue - as described.
I hope this post makes sense
Of course other peoples' preffered adjustments will/might differ but that's why we MUST have the ability to customize the default forced incar view as long as it stays close to realistic.
Edit: shouldn't have started a reply two 2.5 hours earlier than was able to submit it as others have already posted screens with "my" view...
I think that default incar view is good for mouse driving, because then LFS is played just like fps game - with mouse you control the virtual driver's "inside the monitor" hands which in turn hold the virtual steering wheel...
However, such view makes no sense when you are driving with a wheel, because the YOU are the driver and you hold a real steering wheel in your hands. So the monitor shows you only what is above the steering column - top of the dashboard and windscreen area above it.
You may also look at correct/realistic incar camera situation this way - your monitor screen surface is the longitudinal position of camera/in game driver's eyes, but your real eyes are some 40-60cm behind, so you have to move incar camera position forward to compensate for that and get the right view.
IMO there shouldn't be any lateral adjustment for default incar view, but there must be longitudinal one - say as much so the camera doesn't cross the glass os windscreen and doesn't go back into seat's headrest; for vertical axis I think +- 10-15cm would be enough(to prevent unrealistic T bar cam on single seaters) and up and down pitch should be allowed as it doesn't harm realism if you want to look between your legs while driving
Here I attach a quick "scheme": red - default, blue - as described.
I hope this post makes sense
Of course other peoples' preffered adjustments will/might differ but that's why we MUST have the ability to customize the default forced incar view as long as it stays close to realistic.
Edit: shouldn't have started a reply two 2.5 hours earlier than was able to submit it
as others have already posted screens with "my" view...
Last edited by MarioX, .
actually there IS a way, but u have to know what u are doing (I don't :shrug...
...FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG