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Kunos Simulazioni - Assetto Corsa
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Quote from BlueFlame :When you feel the force feedback, you'll have wished you'd had it long before.

I've heard it all before.

All feels the same after 2 laps, and if it feels 'amazing' it's probably not real, because in a race car you don't feel shit unless the wheel falls off, or the servo is dead.
Quote from Dennis93 :I've heard it all before.

All feels the same after 2 laps, and if it feels 'amazing' it's probably not real, because in a race car you don't feel shit unless the wheel falls off, or the servo is dead.

I'm pretty sure you know that isn't really true. No matter how much power assistance there is, if your steering suddenly had no centering force at all it would feel a lot different.
That said I don't think the ffb is exceptional in AC, judging purely from the tech preview.
Quote from sinbad :I'm pretty sure you know that isn't really true. No matter how much power assistance there is, if your steering suddenly had no centering force at all it would feel a lot different.
That said I don't think the ffb is exceptional in AC, judging purely from the tech preview.

Sure there is resistance, but mostly, when my friends or 'hardcore'-simmers say : Dennis try this out, this is the most amazing feel I've ever felt'' It's usually over exaggerated, I'm sure Kunos has made something fantastic here and I'm probably just blowing the bubbles, but there is NOTHING that can feel 'real' compared to a racing car, there is just too many elements you can't simulate, sadly.
Quote from Dennis93 :Sure there is resistance, but mostly, when my friends or 'hardcore'-simmers say : Dennis try this out, this is the most amazing feel I've ever felt'' It's usually over exaggerated, I'm sure Kunos has made something fantastic here and I'm probably just blowing the bubbles, but there is NOTHING that can feel 'real' compared to a racing car, there is just too many elements you can't simulate, sadly.

Well I agree to an extent, but ultimately what happens to the steering via FFB should be dictated by what happens to the front wheels. I'm perhaps like you in that "effects" add nothing. Vibration should only be felt if it exerts a torque on the steering column. What matters, and what makes the difference, is the response and reaction to those forces, but ultimately it should be the tyre model which dictates what the FFB is like.

A good FFB system should simply relay those forces to your wheel with as little latency as possible. For me LFS is far better in this way than AC. A sim should prioritise the FFB, not just say "only 50fps? Guess you don't want steering response or feel anymore then".

I also think that with the right hardware and software there is no reason why an FFB system cannot accurately simulate every ounce of "feel" and force you experience in a real car.
Quote from sinbad :Well I agree to an extent, but ultimately what happens to the steering via FFB should be dictated by what happens to the front wheels. I'm perhaps like you in that "effects" add nothing. Vibration should only be felt if it exerts a torque on the steering column. What matters, and what makes the difference, is the response and reaction to those forces, but ultimately it should be the tyre model which dictates what the FFB is like.

A good FFB system should simply relay those forces to your wheel with as little latency as possible. For me LFS is far better in this way than AC. A sim should prioritise the FFB, not just say "only 50fps? Guess you don't want steering response or feel anymore then".

I also think that with the right hardware and software there is no reason why an FFB system cannot accurately simulate every ounce of "feel" and force you experience in a real car.

I agree to your post 100%.
But normally, as I said, when people think it's what a race car feels like, it's usually over exaggerated, because in the cars with Servo systems I've driven, fx Lamborghini Gallardo GT3, Chevy Camaro, Lacetti (WTCC spec) and so on, usually the servo is more effective than in most road cars. ( <- Meaning that the centering effect in road cars are bigger compared to 'race' cars )

By effective I mean less physical power needed at speed to turn the car etc.

Many times I've had people on TS saying how realistic it felt when they ran the curb, and I've asked ''Why?''... '' I can really feel the rumble strip in my hands and how it's hitting my arms about''.
Thing is, you don't feel this ''Shaking'' in the wheel, the whole car shakes about, the wheel you're holding isn't exactly flickering about, usually I don't feel anything( I feel something, it's just not big like wow this is so tough) in the wheel from Curbs, asphalt damage, contours in the track It's on when you hit someone you can really feel a hit in the wheel, or if you're in a compression area where there is a lot of stress on the car, that's where it gets tough, but apart from that, you don't feel much.
I agree, and I think AC got this less wrong than many others. What you SHOULD feel in the wheel is centering force, and that you feel pretty well in AC too. In AC I don't feel much of the kurbs or bumps at all. That might be my wheel, though (G25).

In my real car I don't feel much of the bumps and stuff either, but aligning forces is VERY evident (rwd, electric servo)
Quote from atledreier :I agree, and I think AC got this less wrong than many others. What you SHOULD feel in the wheel is centering force, and that you feel pretty well in AC too. In AC I don't feel much of the kurbs or bumps at all. That might be my wheel, though (G25).

In my real car I don't feel much of the bumps and stuff either, but aligning forces is VERY evident (rwd, electric servo)

Agreed, since we don't have the privileges of feelings g-forces in sim racing(yet) the force in everything else needs to be close to perfect for it to actually be 'good' in my books.
The somewhat understeery nature of the Elise makes this a bit hard to evaluate, imo. When you understeer you have very little aligning force, and when you oversteer you are usually going backwards headed for a barrier, so again, limited value. We need an oldschool E30 M3 or something on road tires to test this properly.
Or a model of my car, the Toyota GT86, that does aligning forces VERY well.
I guess that's why [to me] Game Stock Car and Fórmula Truck are two of the most realistic feeling games I've driven FFB wise, because nothing is exaggerated. Unlike RF2 when everything about the FFB feels exaggerated.

But nevertheless I garentee you will be impressed with AS. It's as close as it gets to driving a real car whilst still sitting motionless in your living room. The instant I drove it, it immediately felt like driving a road car which is something all of us have experience with, so we can relate to it alot more than driving an F1 car in a sim for instance and then saying it feels amazing.
Quote from atledreier :The somewhat understeery nature of the Elise makes this a bit hard to evaluate, imo. When you understeer you have very little aligning force, and when you oversteer you are usually going backwards headed for a barrier, so again, limited value. We need an oldschool E30 M3 or something on road tires to test this properly.
Or a model of my car, the Toyota GT86, that does aligning forces VERY well.

I think A.C. over-does this a bit. The centering force drops off as though you have intentionally steered way too far on a suddenly wet track, not slight understeer on a dry track, but maybe that's tyre model more than ffb. Elise steering is lovely, sharp, solid and delicate at the same time, I don't think ac does particularly brilliantly at capturing that, but it's alright.
Ever tracked an Elise? I found it to feel like a dog if you enter even slightly too fast, and then I felt I had to drive with an egg on the throttle to avoid the instaspin on exit. Might have been tirepressures or something that was off, but I feel AC captures this behaviour pretty well.
Never driven on a track, but IMO LFS gives impression that every car behaves like a go-cart.. it just can't be like that.
Quote from atledreier :Ever tracked an Elise? I found it to feel like a dog if you enter even slightly too fast, and then I felt I had to drive with an egg on the throttle to avoid the instaspin on exit. Might have been tirepressures or something that was off, but I feel AC captures this behaviour pretty well.

No but I owned an early mk1 for a short time. I am not critical of the ac handling at all, though it was not really as you say, only the steering feel which I don't think is the best, but that's just me.
Imo, whatever you think of the physics/handling, lfs ffb is fantastic at telling you what is happening with urgency and precision, and if ac is set apart by anything, it's not the ffb based on the tech preview, anyway.
Quote from Dennis93 :I agree to your post 100%.
Many times I've had people on TS saying how realistic it felt when they ran the curb, and I've asked ''Why?''... '' I can really feel the rumble strip in my hands and how it's hitting my arms about''.
Thing is, you don't feel this ''Shaking'' in the wheel, the whole car shakes about, the wheel you're holding isn't exactly flickering about, usually I don't feel anything( I feel something, it's just not big like wow this is so tough) in the wheel from Curbs, asphalt damage, contours in the track It's on when you hit someone you can really feel a hit in the wheel, or if you're in a compression area where there is a lot of stress on the car, that's where it gets tough, but apart from that, you don't feel much.

I've always thought FFB wheels need a second set of servos which can (slightly) move the entire steering column about, separately from the torque forces on the wheel. As Dennis says, a lot of what you feel isn't torque from the wheels, but the entire car moving and vibrating under you.
The new fanatec Clubsport rims have a separate motor in the actual rim for vibrations I think. That might feel somewhat akin to what we are talking about?
Quote from atledreier :The new fanatec Clubsport rims have a separate motor in the actual rim for vibrations I think. That might feel somewhat akin to what we are talking about?

All Fanatec wheels have that.

But I don't think simple vibration would simulate that.
Quote from Dennis93 :I agree to your post 100%.
But normally, as I said, when people think it's what a race car feels like, it's usually over exaggerated, because in the cars with Servo systems I've driven, fx Lamborghini Gallardo GT3, Chevy Camaro, Lacetti (WTCC spec) and so on, usually the servo is more effective than in most road cars. ( <- Meaning that the centering effect in road cars are bigger compared to 'race' cars )

By effective I mean less physical power needed at speed to turn the car etc.

Many times I've had people on TS saying how realistic it felt when they ran the curb, and I've asked ''Why?''... '' I can really feel the rumble strip in my hands and how it's hitting my arms about''.
Thing is, you don't feel this ''Shaking'' in the wheel, the whole car shakes about, the wheel you're holding isn't exactly flickering about, usually I don't feel anything( I feel something, it's just not big like wow this is so tough) in the wheel from Curbs, asphalt damage, contours in the track It's on when you hit someone you can really feel a hit in the wheel, or if you're in a compression area where there is a lot of stress on the car, that's where it gets tough, but apart from that, you don't feel much.

And then there are people who want ffb brake pedals...
FFB to simulate ABS most of all. But purists don't use ABS, so that point is moot.
Quote from Hyperactive :And then there are people who want ffb brake pedals...

Why wouldn't you ?
Would be fun to simulate knock off and ABS..... Maybe even some fading

Even though I've been told not to share this, I might as well to prove my point.

In the camaro you don't feel much from the road, illustrated well in this video imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq5iQyClWFI
Brake fade would be great to simulate with FFB, didn't think of that. Hate that mushy feel of the middle pedal....
To have proper brake pedal ffb I guess you'd need some kind of pneumatic piston to have it working strongly and effectively enough.
My Fanatec pedals have a rumbler on the brake pedal to simulate it. It's really basic, but I think it comes close enough for such a basic solution, and certainly adds a kind of realism.
Well yeah, a rumbler is 'ok' as you stated, but I don't think this could be done with a pod cell, it has to be a potentiometer, along with a hydraulic pump to push a kick your foot back as ABS comes.

Racing ABS is really hard on your foot, and would most likely hurt a ****-ton if you don't wear shoes.
http://www.gamemag.it/news/kun ... meno-impegnati_47572.html
http://www.bsimracing.com/asse ... -gamemag-it/#201306283409

Quote :"It will be absolutely open to a wide range of users" , he told Marco Massarutto , Production Director Assetto Corsa. "From the point of view of difficulty driving, operating stability control, traction, automatic transmission and so away, allows you to adjust the model to guide their own needs and preferences, also depending on the controller used, whether it's the keyboard, gamepad or steering wheel and pedals. The difference is not in the dynamic model of the car: that is, the dynamic model is not becomes "arcade" or some kind of simulation by changing parameters.'m driving assistance systems to become more or less invasive, depending on the ability of the pilot to make the car controllable, obviously within certain limits " .

Quote :Version 1.0 of Assetto Corsa will include several cars as Abarth 500 SS, BMW 1M, BMW M3, BMW Z4, Ferrari 458 Italy, Ferrari F40, Ferrari 599XX Evoluzione, Ferrari P4 / 5 Competizione, KTM X-Bow R, Lotus Elan, Lotus Evora, Lotus Elise, Lotus Exige, Lotus 49, McLaren MP4-12C, Pagani Zonda R, Pagani Huayra and Tatuus FA01.

Quote :The circuits already announced are: Imola, Monza, Magione, Mugello, Silverstone and Vallelunga. But after the launch Kunos release two DLC, both free of charge for those who will pre-order the game. About two months after the launch will be released the first DLC, the Bonus Pack 1 that will contain Spa-Francorchamps and some cars. The first DLC will be followed by a DLC "historic", with circuits and historic cars, Historic Pack 1 .

Quote :Presumably, the release will take place between the months of September and October , while details on other tracks should be revealed soon, when you open the pre-order.


Kunos Simulazioni - Assetto Corsa
(8882 posts, started )
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