But Webber is suposseably(is that a word?) an expierienced and fair Driver. Well, that didn't show.

However, it will be interessting to see future fights between them, because their relationship is slightly strangled

We'll see...

Quote from JPeace :

Gonna be honest with you, i didnt know what the f*ck he was doing, so thats why i asked what u guys thought. Put your claws away.

I thought this is a universal gesture that shows that someone is crazy, but i guess i was wrong..

Quote from JazzOn :

But Webber is suposseably(is that a word?) an expierienced and fair Driver. Well, that didn't show.

However, it will be interessting to see future fights between them, because their relationship is slightly strangled

We'll see...

Webber was more than fair... what are you on about? You scream of extreme fanboyism! Vettel was 100% at fault for the collision. He made the decision to drive HIS car into another car.. another car WHICH HAD not changed it's track position!

Anyway this cracked me up



I've always thought Vettel's jokes and childish behaviour lacked a level of maturity required at this level. I think the gestures and his reaction proved this.

he certainly has the speed to win the WDC for sure, and may well do so because the RBR is so good. He needs to clean up his act sharpish but it's much harder competing against a grid of drivers who are out to get you. Just ask Hamilton to know what that is like.

Quote from Intrepid :

Webber was more than fair... what are you on about? You scream of extreme fanboyism! Vettel was 100% at fault for the collision. He made the decision to drive HIS car into another car.. another car WHICH HAD not changed it's track position!

LoL, what im on about is that it is not a 'clear cut', as the BBC staff says, (even DC admitted that there is more to it, although he gave 100% fault on Vettel)

You are the one acting as a fanboy. If you can't see that it needs 2 cars for a crash you are just deluded.
I've cheered for Webber and i felt with him at the Australia GP Disaster.

I made my point clear. If my english is that bad, i'm sorry. I can't say anymore without repeating myself over and over again... We are going in circles here.

Peace

Indeed BenjiMC, Life is just more fun - when you're dumb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN-PoetFwUg

while i agree it's vettels fault, it's not 100% his fault because Webber is his team mate. But people seem to be deciding to neglect that.

Quote from JazzOn :

You are the one acting as a fanboy. If you can't see that it needs 2 cars for a crash you are just deluded.

So if I T-Bone another driver they are partly to blame for 'being in the way'.

Webber didn't do anything wrong. IF Webber is at fault for the crash then so should Hamilton be 'at fault' for forcing the issue on Vettel causing him to make such a dumb move.

Webber drove to the letter of the law. End of debate. Yes he may have been a bit naive in leaving a gap in the first place but naivety and being 'at fault' are two very different things.

If Vettel thinks his team mates are there to simply get out of his way he himself and his fans are deluded. Various journos have started to leak some bits and bobs about the favouritism towards Vettel in that team and it's about time Webber started acting like a man and saying "no more, you aint getting it easy".

Quote from BenjiMC :

while i agree it's vettels fault, it's not 100% his fault because Webber is his team mate. But people seem to be deciding to neglect that.

Webber is a team mate who isn't in favour with management though. Rightly he decided enough was enough. Vettel wasn't going to have it all his own way. In the end it worked out for Webber.

Quote from JJ72 :

Webber could have eventually let him through, and I am sure he will because his fight was 80% over, but the point is he never had the chance to because Vettel crashed into him......for no reason whatsoever than wishful thinking.

Webber not having time to react is a lame excuse... One bump could have shifted the cars into each other, if he'd left just one meter between them he could have seen the move coming, but he rather took the risk of being the first one to be collected in case something goes wrong... Which it did...

Horner is absolutely right: both played hard ball, took unnecessary risks and as a result let their team down, hugely...

Quote from Intrepid :

Various journos have started to leak some bits and bobs about the favouritism towards Vettel in that team and it's about time Webber started acting like a man and saying "no more, you aint getting it easy".

Proof? Right, like those journalists you have none... But another conspiracy sells good, doesn't it?

James Allen - Well respected F1 writer after Nurb 2009

Quote :

Mark Webber’s partner Ann Neil came out of the drivers’ area and walked across the room. One of the team said something like, “Isn’t it fantastic, Mark’s win?” To which she replied rather tartly, “I’m glad someone around here is pleased.” And indeed it did seem more like a wake than a celebration.

Is James telling porkies about Ann and RedBull. He was there after Webber's win.


Martin Brundle - Well respected F1 commentator and ex-driver

Quote :

The problem Red Bull have is that it seems clear they favour their protégé Vettel to take the title over Webber, who is 11 years older.

It's fairly obvious that RBR favour Vettel!

I think hugging Vettel after he PUBLICLY insulted one of the RBR team members with stupid hand gestures AFTER he crashed into that driver HIMSELF says EVERYTHING you need to know about Vettel's relationship with the to brass in that team.

Quote from JPeace :

Gonna be honest with you, i didnt know what the f*ck he was doing, so thats why i asked what u guys thought. Put your claws away.

Man, why are you so pent up? You had your question answered and you start acusing people of having claws out. Maybe you should rethink your friendship strategy.

Quote from JazzOn :

Lets say the track is maybe 6 cars wide. 2 are on the very left side leaving at least 1 car width room for Webber to move and still make it very difficult for Vettel to make the pass stick, considering hes on the dirty left side going for a left hander corner. And dont forget the bumps, which leaves always a tad of guesswork. Something that Mark did not consider at all. He jus kept straight and unlike those guys at BBC, i did not see Webber attemting to make even an inch room. It was unfair and in respect of the team, unpredictable. At these top speed, with open wheelers, there needs to be some room. Not even 1 front tire would have fit between those two cars.

I don't understand your point of view. You seem to be of the opinion that where the two cars are on the track has some effect on the rules regarding driving into the side of another car.

Are you saying it's always fair for the driver on the edge of the road to swerve towards the middle, even if there is a car there?

Are you saying the driver furthest from the "racing line" is always allowed to swerve back towards it, even if there's another car there?

At what point does it switch from legal side-swipe to illegal side-swipe? Do you see how your subjective opinion is at odds with the fairly clear-cut rules? If you were the race official you would find it impossible to explain why one side-swipe is different from any other side-swipe.

Look at it simplistically. One driver made an unpredictable deviation from a line that he had driven for a couple of hundred metres, and hit another car. Forget that they are team-mates. This crash was Vettel's fault, and few other drivers would have done what he did. Every other driver would have done what Webber did, especially in his championship position. (Well, except perhaps Vettel, who on this showing might have forced the attacking driver onto the grass).

Quote from Intrepid :

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

So you think race is more about force than inteligence and experience of drivers? Experienced driver should at that conditions give him more place. Propably he would overtake him on next turn. If is someone faster he would pass him sooner or later. And if he wanted to defend his position that hard he should made so before he passed him. At all they would lose much time because of those defendings on mclarens.

Quote from sinbad :

I don't understand your point of view. You seem to be of the opinion that where the two cars are on the track has some effect on the rules regarding driving into the side of another car.

Are you saying it's always fair for the driver on the edge of the road to swerve towards the middle, even if there is a car there?

Are you saying the driver furthest from the "racing line" is always allowed to swerve back towards it, even if there's another car there?

At what point does it switch from legal side-swipe to illegal side-swipe? Do you see how your subjective opinion is at odds with the fairly clear-cut rules? If you were the race official you would find it impossible to explain why one side-swipe is different from any other side-swipe.

Look at it simplistically. One driver made an unpredictable deviation from a line that he had driven for a couple of hundred metres, and hit another car. Forget that they are team-mates. This crash was Vettel's fault, and few other drivers would have done what he did. Every other driver would have done what Webber did, especially in his championship position. (Well, except perhaps Vettel, who on this showing might have forced the attacking driver onto the grass).

I don't generalise. I look at this particular case, that could have had another outcome.

BTW not everyone would have done what Webber did. Please look at the same section Hamilton vs Button.

I'm saying that Webber did not act like a sportsman, of what i'm dissapointed of.

And Intrepid, I'm rather interessted in the Sport, than Politics and Speculations. And FTR, i often disagree with Brundle!

Edit QFT:

Quote from bbman :

Webber not having time to react is a lame excuse... One bump could have shifted the cars into each other, if he'd left just one meter between them he could have seen the move coming, but he rather took the risk of being the first one to be collected in case something goes wrong... Which it did..

PS Edit:

Quote from L@gger :

...And if he wanted to defend his position that hard he should made so before he passed him.

Exactly. The block by Webber was weak, if you wanna say so. A proper block and Vettel had no other choice then to let off the throttle.

Quote from JazzOn :

BTW not everyone would have done what Webber did. Please look at the same section Hamilton vs Button.

Uhm, Button did exactly what Webber did. Actually, no, that's not right. Button did MORE than what Webber did - he actually actively pushed Hamilton across the track on the start/finish straight, whereas Webber simply held his line.

Webber acted exactly like a sportsman , as multiple people have already said Webber did not change his direction nor did he squeeze Vettel .

When you drive along a two lane highway and your sitting beside another car and you hook right and hit that car who's fault is that?

Vettel had a brain fart, played the tough guy and lost the gamble and what irks me the most is he is not man enough to at least concede maybe he was at fault too. Instead he dropped into infant mode with the hand signals and crying .

If its Webbers job to roll over every time Vettel comes close RBR should have the decency to tell Webber and the punters.

Quote from richo :

Vettel had a brain fart, played the tough guy and lost the gamble and what irks me the most is he is not man enough to at least concede maybe he was at fault too. Instead he dropped into infant mode with the hand signals and crying

That pretty much sums up my position too. Vettel acted like a child. It wasn't the accident (which was Vettel's fault) or the preceding events, but the reaction that seemed wrong. Just compare to Lulu. He's had his moments in the past, but you could tell how hard it was for to not just lose it after another McLaren strategy cock-up post race.

Vettel's gestures are incomprehensible. To literally say to millions of viewers through hand gestures "Webber is a dick head" is indefensible.

Maybe after this race he will improve.

Quote from Intrepid :

... To literally say to millions of viewers through hand gestures "Webber is a dick head" is indefensible.
...

I agree on that. Heat of the moment and political incorrect. But the emotion is understandable, if you'd be that honest.

This is a very clear cut case in my opinion. It is Alguesuari/Chandok all over again.

The incar view from Vettel at 1:22 clearly shows that he moved to the right too early:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A--iNU

He thought he was all the way past and he didn't check his mirrors. It was a noob, rookie mistake, and as punishment he got hugged by the team.

Quote from Intrepid :

Vettel's gestures are incomprehensible. To literally say to millions of viewers through hand gestures "Webber is a dick head" is indefensible.

Maybe after this race he will improve.

How will Vettel improve when the entire senior management team tells him that is was Webber's fault!?

Red Bull are teaching Vettel that his bad behaviour is ok and they are telling Mark that he is nothing in their eyes compared to the golden boy.

This is all very bad for Mark. His only chance to win the championship now is to completely dominate Vettel from start to finish. If Vettel is anywhere near him the team will make him pull over.

He'll probably be out of the team next year and won't get another competitive drive.

Mark has to win now. On the bright side he has nothing to lose!

Quote from Intrepid :

I think hugging Vettel after he PUBLICLY insulted one of the RBR team members with stupid hand gestures

oh what a terribly insulting hand gesture... not only has he got the middle finger up hes got all his finger up
that must be at least 4 times as insulting

please tell me youre joking not even you can actually be that much of an idiot

Quote from JazzOn :

I don't generalise. I look at this particular case, that could have had another outcome.

BTW not everyone would have done what Webber did. Please look at the same section Hamilton vs Button.

I'm saying that Webber did not act like a sportsman, of what i'm dissapointed of.

And Intrepid, I'm rather interessted in the Sport, than Politics and Speculations. And FTR, i often disagree with Brundle!

Edit QFT:

PS Edit:

Exactly. The block by Webber was weak, if you wanna say so. A proper block and Vettel had no other choice then to let off the throttle.

Often disagreeing someone who have been a driver for a few years, and a commentator for many years after~?

wow you must have known so much more than he does, that must have been why you thought it was Webber's fault that Vettel drove into him~?

Next time when you are driving, stopped at a set of lights, and got rear ended. Make sure to say that it was your fault for "not moving out of the way" when you see the car behind was going to slam into you.

tbh, the vid above shows it's clearly vettel's fault... look, he didnt even tilt his head to see the damn mirror to confirm that he had cleared webber... that a retard.

i'd still like to see him win in here canada after overtaking webber @T1 though..

Quote from Shotglass :

oh what a terribly insulting hand gesture... not only has he got the middle finger up hes got all his finger up
that must be at least 4 times as insulting

please tell me youre joking not even you can actually be that much of an idiot

I think he meant the gestures at the beginning of this video.

Quote from zeugnimod :

I think he meant the gestures at the beginning of this video.

Gosh that is also a terribly offensive hand gesture!

Vettel didn't exactly help himself by moving Right ever so slightly, but Webber could've perhaps cut him a bit more slack. Both of them are to blame.

Its probrably to do with loathing in the team that we haven't seen publicaly before.

Quote from djfatrod :

This is a very clear cut case in my opinion. It is Alguesuari/Chandok all over again.

The incar view from Vettel at 1:22 clearly shows that he moved to the right too early:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A--iNU

He thought he was all the way past and he didn't check his mirrors. It was a noob, rookie mistake, and as punishment he got hugged by the team.



How will Vettel improve when the entire senior management team tells him that is was Webber's fault!?

Red Bull are teaching Vettel that his bad behaviour is ok and they are telling Mark that he is nothing in their eyes compared to the golden boy.

This is all very bad for Mark. His only chance to win the championship now is to completely dominate Vettel from start to finish. If Vettel is anywhere near him the team will make him pull over.

He'll probably be out of the team next year and won't get another competitive drive.

Mark has to win now. On the bright side he has nothing to lose!

Nah there is team bias, its Red Bulls way of Saying to Vettel stay here we will defend you at all cost.

Redbull has payed for this guy to get into f1, Hes young talented and will be in f1 for plenty more years so Redbull will do everything in there power to keep him even if it means tossing away there older probably faster driver if he gets hit by Vettel.

I suspected it before this GP expecially when you see the difference in team reaction when Webber gets a pole or win compared to Vettel.

My view on things.
I all comes down to the state of nr1 driver or nr1a at RBR.
Both drivers were even in points and after the last races it seems like MW would be able to beat Vettel. He had an all time high.
On the other side Vettel had a lot bad luck lately and began to realize that his underestimated team mate is the biggest opponent in the battle for the championship.

So Vettel was driving a few laps behind MW and I am pretty sure he realized that there is no chance of passing if WM doesn't do any mistakes.
So he tried when MW was slower out of the turn for whatever reason. It was clearly a valid try cause he came in the lead before the breaking.
For me it was not the pressure by LH from behind rather than the chance of beating MW on track to show who is nr1a at RBR.

MW himself was also very aware that if SV beat him on track for whatever reason, SV will be everybodies darling again.
He will be put back in second row. So he knew he must prevent SV somehow from overtaking.

My assumption is that in time vettel came in front, there was no reason for MW to keep that close.
MW should have positioning his car for the best possible braking attempt to regain his position after the turn.
I think that was exactly was SV was thinking so he tried to do same.
He was not forcing MW to clean line (which would be quite stupid), he was assuming MW would do it by himself.
So he hit MWs car by accident and not by intension.
Of course is was SVs fault but it remains mysterious why MW hold his line and did not get back to the right.

It is stupid to overate SV actions after the crash. There was a lot of adrenalin involved so it should not be taken to serious.

At the end it was not fight at ease between team mates, it was a fight to be nr1 in team.

Be calm with me, I am not a nativ english speaker .