The online racing simulator
iRacing
(13604 posts, closed, started )
Quote from Technique :Translation: Americans are fat and elitist and I want to slaughter all of them. Oh, they also might have made a great sim but I really don't care. If I do play it, I will just pirate it so I don't support their economy!

I'm sorry but no where does it say the required annual income is $70k to play. You can work at McDonalds and still afford this game. Seriously.... but atleast the folks at iRacing have given some of you new reasons to hate Americans!

I did not mean it like that. And i said it few posts down. And if you cant understand what i mean im rly sorry for ya. If indeed is gonna be very great sim we shall yet see. Superman Returns, the movie was suppsed to be da sh1t and what not and look how rubish it turned out. Maybe youre some tester or somethin and you know more than i do, but its just i dont believe it if i dont see it, thats all. Now give me a brake with all this that im anti US, couse im not, im just anti politics. Get it?
Quote from danowat :
the market will decide, it's not up to me or you, you vote with your feet, like everything in commerce.

Danowat - we are the market. It may be that you wish to take a submissive posture in relation to how you consume, but others don't.

Quote from danowat :


I can't understand all the sniping, it just doesn't make sense,

From a submissive position, obviously it doesn't make sense.
Quote from nihil :Danowat - we are the market. It may be that you wish to take a submissive posture in relation to how you consume, but others don't.

Thats the thing, we are not the market, obviously, because we have been priced out of said market.

My posture is, if it's too expensive, or I feel it's too expensive, I don't buy it.

I think Ferrari's are too expensive / overpriced, but rather than press-ganging their marketing department about it, I just choose not to (even try) and buy one.
Quote from Shotglass :i wont and im here hoping to convince some people that its not ok for developers to shove overpriced games down out throats

Oh no, it's the Crusade Of Consumer Keenness!

To be honest I too can't see what all the fuss is about - if it's expensive and no one buys it, they'll either revise policy or make it more tempting... somehow...
Quote from PwrSlave :I did not mean it like that. And i said it few posts down. And if you cant understand what i mean im rly sorry for ya. If indeed is gonna be very great sim we shall yet see. Superman Returns, the movie was suppsed to be da sh1t and what not and look how rubish it turned out. Maybe youre some tester or somethin and you know more than i do, but its just i dont believe it if i dont see it, thats all. Now give me a brake with all this that im anti US, couse im not, im just anti politics. Get it?

Understood. I'm anti-politics also. I'm not quite sure what that has to do with iRacing though...
Well, for me, on the basis that we are the target audience i Racing has missed the board altogether, nevermind hit a bullseye.

No it's not cost prohibitive, but it's certianly not cheap either.

I agree with many others that the principle of renting the game does not sit well with me at all, but if it turned out to put sliced bread to shame then I reckon a lot of us would swallow our principles and get stuck in there.

The biggest issue for me is the track/car selection - simply too much emphasis on ovals and a poor selection of vehicles.

On that basis, without a free demo to tempt me, I aint going near it.
Quote from nihil :Danowat - we are the market. It may be that you wish to take a submissive posture in relation to how you consume, but others don't.



From a submissive position, obviously it doesn't make sense.

I'm struggling with the concept of being a submissive consumer. The alternative is to be an aggressive consumer? Do I have this right?

Submissive consumer
Evaluates the pros and cons of an existing product/service to decide if it's worth the money.

Aggressive consumer
Prior to a product/service's availability gives money to those who might produce it so as to influence the final product?

I didn't know I had a choice.
Quote from Danke :I'm struggling with the concept of being a submissive consumer. The alternative is to be an aggressive consumer? Do I have this right?

Submissive consumer
Evaluates the pros and cons of an existing product/service to decide if it's worth the money.

Aggressive consumer
Prior to a product/service's availability gives money to those who might produce it so as to influence the final product?

I didn't know I had a choice.

I wouldn't worry about it, people like nihil just like to "fight the power"
danowat, we're IN the sim racing community. That's our virtual society. That's the premise.

I'm also in the British society. I didn't vote for the current government. However, I am still entitled to an opinion about that government.

I'm not in the Burmese society. I never paid taxes to that government. However, I am still entitled to an opinion about that government.

There is absolutely no point in trying to oppress those of us who are dissenters to the iRenting model into silence. Give up now.
Sorry Sam, when did I say that anyone opposed to the iRacing model shouldn't voice their opinion?.

I am not trying to silence anyone, they are entitled to say whatever they like.

I myself don't like the pricing model, but it's got nothing much to do with me, their product, their pricing model, if I don't like it, I don't have to use it.

Not sure how I am trying to "oppress" anyone, I am just voicing my opinion.

Give up?, give up what?, voicing my opinion, who's doing the oppressing now?
If it does actually become everything it says it is, then for the first time people might truly get a sense of a professional racing simulator as opposed to merely a 'serious' racing simulator. Sim racing is still growing and for that, the software has to get better. No ones complaining about the cost of expensive motion hardware (not that probably any of us here can afford it), but it exists anyway, and since it exists, someone's got to be making a living from it. It's strange that the best software geared to a $20,000 motion simulator is something like LFS, which you can buy for 24 pounds. Most professional PC software is incredibly expensive, just 1 or 2 programs can easily outstrip the costs of a new computer system.

I agree that until now sim racers have gotten their software incredibly cheaply. For a consumer (me), that's great, but it perhaps does reflect in the market somewhat that developing a serious sim is hardly worth the time and effort, it's just easier and more lucrative to churn out another console racer- forget innovation, forget about developing and refining the technologies which will bring in greater realism. What iRacing's doing on paper (atleast) is commendable.
No disrespect intended Dan. I just meant...
Quote from danowat :Sorry Sam, when did I say that anyone opposed to the iRacing model shouldn't voice their opinion?.

I am not trying to silence anyone, they are entitled to say whatever they like.

I myself don't like the pricing model, but it's got nothing much to do with me, their product, their pricing model, if I don't like it, I don't have to use it.

Not sure how I am trying to "oppress" anyone, I am just voicing my opinion.

Give up?, give up what?, voicing my opinion, who's doing the oppressing now?

Well, it's kinda implicit in the comments you've made in this page. People who oppose the iRental model are therefore not customers, so their opinions count for diddly.. the net result being a bit GWBish, with the "anti-American, for the war or against this great nation" bull. Stuff like...
Quote from danowat :I wouldn't worry about it, people like nihil just like to "fight the power"

.. just attempts to belittle person for his opinion, thus nihil's opinion is diminished and his (valid?) point is repressed.

I meant give up as in.. like it or not, people who don't like the model are going to be vocal about it. Since these are the people who could make or break the sim (i.e. sim racers who are physically able to afford iRenting but may/may not choose to do so), I'd say their opinions are pivotal.
Never a big fan of renting ANYTHING myself. I do so out of need, not because it's 'good sense', far from it. If I put my money into something I want it to mean something, even if it means I have full HHD of games I will never touch again.

There is no way I am willing to put my money towards paying for license fee's either, which is where a good portion of that money is heading to.

If I was able to keep the software and not have to keep plugging money into it, maybe. Personally I play simulators because it's cheaper. If I had to pay 150-200 bucks a year just for the software, I would rather put a new ECU in my car, at least then I get to keep something that I enjoy.

I have been sucked into many monthy MMO's. Eventually with anything you get tired of it and don't want to play and you stop paying the fee, then you cannot access anything that you were once paying for. I have borked out over a grand in USD over the years to play stupid games that I will never see again, unless I give them MORE money, no thanks they can have their monthly fees =).

Paying for services are different however.
I think challenging thier opinions is slightly different from saying their opinions count for diddly (which I don't think I ever did).

I think you wading in is making this, slightly, one sided debate,is just making a bit more of a one sided debate.

I think I will take your advice, and give up, I just get flabberghasted by the continual blinkered fanboyism's that many of LFS's patron's display
Quote from danowat :I think challenging thier opinions is slightly different from saying their opinions count for diddly (which I don't think I ever did).

Questioning the source (will never be a customer) or the motivation (always fights the "power") of the opinion on a personal level just leads discussions down the path of slanging matches and personal derision. Challenging peoples' opinions for the content of the opinion with respect to the subject at hand is definitely the way to go, IMO. It lends to the discussion rather than detracts from it.

On the other hand, dan, I could just be right up me own hiney
Errrr, ok. Not sure where you are making the connection from people disagreeing to fanboyism, but ok.
Dan, you and I both know there's a good deal of fanboyism on all sides in this one.

I think a lot of LFSers would be surprised at how small of a minority we are in the sim racing community. We tend to be a bit isolationist, which blinds us to the currents of opinion in other sim racing communities--iRacing will certainly be divisive across the board, but I think the opposition here is stronger than in most comparable places.
Just to make something clear, i am not some fantical fanboy of LFS in any way. And in one aspect of the whole iRacing deal i like very much, it having the system to put similar skilled racers in their divisions at all times, thus giving the best possible racing to them at all times. What i dont like about it, is it beeing as closed to use as East Europe was in cold war. Paying for the product mothly to drive what they let you drive, and then paying some more for the stuff you raced hard to get there, and then participating in a league they let you participate in, and physics engine we have heard nothing of, only that it has track/car modeling like never before seen.
So yea, if that makes me a world hater, its up to you to believe. I dont care how much money ppl have, but things like these are just first steps towards them charging us for the amount of sh1t we sh1t, per kilo vise. And i know i cant fight it, but i sure as hell will say somethign against it, at least thats the right i still have.

If indeed will show up that this is going to be something out of this world, it will have to have some VERY impressive features, and if not, then it can cost 1000 $ per month and i will just laugh at it.
It could be a bit of a leap, yeah. On consideration, the distinction between LFS and iRenting fanboyism in this context has to come down to pricing model - since pretty well everyone who is a fan of LFS and is involved in this thread has a common desire for a racing sim with maximum emphasis on realistic "gameplay" and cars that behave as they would if they were real.

So, let me define my LFS fanboyism in terms of pricing model. I am a massive fan of the LFS model. The principle motivation behind LFS seems, to me at least, to be to deliver a licence to the most physically realistic racing sim. The price, £24, I think is very low and lends itself to a COLOSSAL return on investment with respect to value for money (my driving economic passion in all of life). What I received for my £24, and also what has been gifted to me since makes it the best £24 I ever spent. Genuinely.

What I don't accept is that I cannot be a fanboy of two sims at the same time. The fact is that I AM a fan of two.. I love RBR with a passion. It's a crackin' good sim, and for the £5.99 or whatever that I paid for it, it too has delivered a mammoth return on my investmenet.

Therefore, I *could* be a fanboy of iRental too. I have the desire for the product, there's no question about that.. it seems to clearly have a similar motivation behind it in terms of racing simulation. It has a premise of structured racing.. so it's definitely facing in the right way for me. The only issue, really, is the return on my investment. That, as I've explained, is a very important thing to me.

Firstly, the rental system. iRacing is technically iRental. If you don't keep up your payments, you won't have uninterrupted gameplay. I would never choose a mortgage over a purchase. Secondly, the relationship between the investment and return in terms of hours of use. There are times when, with the best will in the world, I just don't have time to go racing. I don't know, at the beginning of a month, if I will have the time through the month to spend even an hour racing. If I do, I don't know from day to day whether or not I'll be able to do it again the next day. The potential for me to experience 0% return on a monthsworth investment is far too great. Lastly, but by no means least, my observations to-date suggest that iRental subscribers are going to be paying hand-over-fist for, what I perceive to be, unnecessary development costs. The problem is that I am going to have to invest in the product to be able to determine if my investment is worth the investment.

I am not, nor ever was, nor ever will be anti-iRacing. In fact, there is a lot of potential for me to be massively PRO-iRacing. Unfortunately there are too many obstacles right now between me making the leap into being an iRacing customer. And that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with me being an LFS fanboy.
Quote from SamH :It could be a bit of a leap, yeah. On consideration, the distinction between LFS and iRenting fanboyism in this context has to come down to pricing model - since pretty well everyone who is a fan of LFS and is involved in this thread has a common desire for a racing sim with maximum emphasis on realistic "gameplay" and cars that behave as they would if they were real.

So, let me define my LFS fanboyism in terms of pricing model. I am a massive fan of the LFS model. The principle motivation behind LFS seems, to me at least, to be to deliver a licence to the most physically realistic racing sim. The price, £24, I think is very low and lends itself to a COLOSSAL return on investment with respect to value for money (my driving economic passion in all of life). What I received for my £24, and also what has been gifted to me since makes it the best £24 I ever spent. Genuinely.

What I don't accept is that I cannot be a fanboy of two sims at the same time. The fact is that I AM a fan of two.. I love RBR with a passion. It's a crackin' good sim, and for the £5.99 or whatever that I paid for it, it too has delivered a mammoth return on my investmenet.

Therefore, I *could* be a fanboy of iRental too. I have the desire for the product, there's no question about that.. it seems to clearly have a similar motivation behind it in terms of racing simulation. It has a premise of structured racing.. so it's definitely facing in the right way for me. The only issue, really, is the return on my investment. That, as I've explained, is a very important thing to me.

Firstly, the rental system. iRacing is technically iRental. If you don't keep up your payments, you won't have uninterrupted gameplay. I would never choose a mortgage over a purchase. Secondly, the relationship between the investment and return in terms of hours of use. There are times when, with the best will in the world, I just don't have time to go racing. I don't know, at the beginning of a month, if I will have the time through the month to spend even an hour racing. If I do, I don't know from day to day whether or not I'll be able to do it again the next day. The potential for me to experience 0% return on a monthsworth investment is far too great. Lastly, but by no means least, my observations to-date suggest that iRental subscribers are going to be paying hand-over-fist for, what I perceive to be, unnecessary development costs. The problem is that I am going to have to invest in the product to be able to determine if my investment is worth the investment.

What he said, only better than I could ever write it
Well Sam's just about perfectly summed up how i feel as well. Saved me a lot of typing


Nothing negative I've said about iRental is due to LFS fanboyism either. LFS isn't even my favourite sim. I do hate it when people play the fanboy card, that's just a piss poor excuse for not understanding the real concerns people are expressing in this thread.

iRacing as a sim and and service should be making me piss my pants with excitement. On the face of it it's the sim I've dreamt of all my simming life.
Unfortunately there's too many things that make me feel it's both a rip off and is coming across as massively elitist.

I have absolutely no doubt it will be the best sim ever seen by a long way as far as physics and tracks are concerned, but the initial crappy content and huge doubts as to whether enough people are going to buy into it due to those iRipoff prices will be keeping me away for quite a while.
As mentioned before, any piece of software is licensed to you. You don't own it. You may be able to use it indefinitely, but it doesn't belong to you.

The term iRental is not therefore very accurate. You'd be paying for a service, as you might your TV or internet service. And it makes anyone using the term 'iRental' look a bit immature in my opinion.

The pricing model is contentious. But it will actually be bad for the sim racing niche if the entire enterprise fails. Sim development for the PC will likely continue, but if the most well funded sim company ever formed can't succeed (and I think sim racing needs a change one way or another) then it could affect the landscape for developers later on to get decent sim's produced. If they all jump ship to consoles I know I wouldn't be happy.

What I'd like to see is their service succeed, and therefore increase the health and stature of PC sim racing so that other sims such as LFS, nkPro, yep even the ISI based stuff (and Lizard?) etc continue to flourish also.

No one is forced to buy in. If the pricing model doesn't suit you, choose something else. My guess is every sim racer would want to try it, but many are probably unhappy that they won't be able to afford or justify the cost.
Quote from dontsimon :As mentioned before, any piece of software is licensed to you. You don't own it. You may be able to use it indefinitely, but it doesn't belong to you.

Quote from SamH :to deliver a licence to the most physically realistic racing sim.

Quote from dontsimon :The term iRental is not therefore very accurate. You'd be paying for a service, as you might your TV or internet service. And it makes anyone using the term 'iRental' look a bit immature in my opinion.

I disagree. My mortgage analogy was less accurate because at the end of a mortgage term, you can still live in the house. No matter when you stop paying iRental, the content is inaccessible then on. This is why iRental fits better than iBuy, iFinance, iMortgage or iLease-To-Own. In terms of software, there are very few software packages out there with a finite licencing term. Even $10,000 of Windows server licence is licenced for life, even if support for it will end. At the end of it, useful/modern/secure or not, you can still deploy it for life once you've paid the licence.

AOL is giving away laptops with their internet service provision. At the end of the contract, you still keep the laptop, the modem/router, yadayada. iRental is selling its entire service as a service, and yet there are components within it that you buy - new cars, tracks etc. However, once you stop paying for the service, you also lose the rights to use the components you've bought. This is a fundamental flaw in the pricing model that will not serve the sim well.
Quote from dontsimon :The pricing model is contentious. But it will actually be bad for the sim racing niche if the entire enterprise fails. Sim development for the PC will likely continue, but if the most well funded sim company ever formed can't succeed (and I think sim racing needs a change one way or another) then it could affect the landscape for developers later on to get decent sim's produced. If they all jump ship to consoles I know I wouldn't be happy.

I don't perceive iRental to be make/break for the PC-based sim.
Quote from dontsimon :What I'd like to see is their service succeed, and therefore increase the health and stature of PC sim racing so that other sims such as LFS, nkPro, yep even the ISI based stuff (and Lizard?) etc continue to flourish also.

I would too. My choice not to invest does not imply a desire for the sim to fail. Anyone who interprets iRental dissention from anyone here in those terms is themselves in error.
Quote from dontsimon :No one is forced to buy in. If the pricing model doesn't suit you, choose something else. My guess is every sim racer would want to try it, but many are probably unhappy that they won't be able to afford or justify the cost.

I would agree there. Some people can't raise enough for LFS for a lifetime licence. Far more will be unable to manage an ongoing rental programme. That's just the world we live in.
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(dontsimon) DELETED by SamH : double-post
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iRacing
(13604 posts, closed, started )
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