The online racing simulator
iRacing
(13671 posts, closed, started )
It could be a bit of a leap, yeah. On consideration, the distinction between LFS and iRenting fanboyism in this context has to come down to pricing model - since pretty well everyone who is a fan of LFS and is involved in this thread has a common desire for a racing sim with maximum emphasis on realistic "gameplay" and cars that behave as they would if they were real.

So, let me define my LFS fanboyism in terms of pricing model. I am a massive fan of the LFS model. The principle motivation behind LFS seems, to me at least, to be to deliver a licence to the most physically realistic racing sim. The price, £24, I think is very low and lends itself to a COLOSSAL return on investment with respect to value for money (my driving economic passion in all of life). What I received for my £24, and also what has been gifted to me since makes it the best £24 I ever spent. Genuinely.

What I don't accept is that I cannot be a fanboy of two sims at the same time. The fact is that I AM a fan of two.. I love RBR with a passion. It's a crackin' good sim, and for the £5.99 or whatever that I paid for it, it too has delivered a mammoth return on my investmenet.

Therefore, I *could* be a fanboy of iRental too. I have the desire for the product, there's no question about that.. it seems to clearly have a similar motivation behind it in terms of racing simulation. It has a premise of structured racing.. so it's definitely facing in the right way for me. The only issue, really, is the return on my investment. That, as I've explained, is a very important thing to me.

Firstly, the rental system. iRacing is technically iRental. If you don't keep up your payments, you won't have uninterrupted gameplay. I would never choose a mortgage over a purchase. Secondly, the relationship between the investment and return in terms of hours of use. There are times when, with the best will in the world, I just don't have time to go racing. I don't know, at the beginning of a month, if I will have the time through the month to spend even an hour racing. If I do, I don't know from day to day whether or not I'll be able to do it again the next day. The potential for me to experience 0% return on a monthsworth investment is far too great. Lastly, but by no means least, my observations to-date suggest that iRental subscribers are going to be paying hand-over-fist for, what I perceive to be, unnecessary development costs. The problem is that I am going to have to invest in the product to be able to determine if my investment is worth the investment.

I am not, nor ever was, nor ever will be anti-iRacing. In fact, there is a lot of potential for me to be massively PRO-iRacing. Unfortunately there are too many obstacles right now between me making the leap into being an iRacing customer. And that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with me being an LFS fanboy.
Quote from SamH :It could be a bit of a leap, yeah. On consideration, the distinction between LFS and iRenting fanboyism in this context has to come down to pricing model - since pretty well everyone who is a fan of LFS and is involved in this thread has a common desire for a racing sim with maximum emphasis on realistic "gameplay" and cars that behave as they would if they were real.

So, let me define my LFS fanboyism in terms of pricing model. I am a massive fan of the LFS model. The principle motivation behind LFS seems, to me at least, to be to deliver a licence to the most physically realistic racing sim. The price, £24, I think is very low and lends itself to a COLOSSAL return on investment with respect to value for money (my driving economic passion in all of life). What I received for my £24, and also what has been gifted to me since makes it the best £24 I ever spent. Genuinely.

What I don't accept is that I cannot be a fanboy of two sims at the same time. The fact is that I AM a fan of two.. I love RBR with a passion. It's a crackin' good sim, and for the £5.99 or whatever that I paid for it, it too has delivered a mammoth return on my investmenet.

Therefore, I *could* be a fanboy of iRental too. I have the desire for the product, there's no question about that.. it seems to clearly have a similar motivation behind it in terms of racing simulation. It has a premise of structured racing.. so it's definitely facing in the right way for me. The only issue, really, is the return on my investment. That, as I've explained, is a very important thing to me.

Firstly, the rental system. iRacing is technically iRental. If you don't keep up your payments, you won't have uninterrupted gameplay. I would never choose a mortgage over a purchase. Secondly, the relationship between the investment and return in terms of hours of use. There are times when, with the best will in the world, I just don't have time to go racing. I don't know, at the beginning of a month, if I will have the time through the month to spend even an hour racing. If I do, I don't know from day to day whether or not I'll be able to do it again the next day. The potential for me to experience 0% return on a monthsworth investment is far too great. Lastly, but by no means least, my observations to-date suggest that iRental subscribers are going to be paying hand-over-fist for, what I perceive to be, unnecessary development costs. The problem is that I am going to have to invest in the product to be able to determine if my investment is worth the investment.

What he said, only better than I could ever write it
Well Sam's just about perfectly summed up how i feel as well. Saved me a lot of typing


Nothing negative I've said about iRental is due to LFS fanboyism either. LFS isn't even my favourite sim. I do hate it when people play the fanboy card, that's just a piss poor excuse for not understanding the real concerns people are expressing in this thread.

iRacing as a sim and and service should be making me piss my pants with excitement. On the face of it it's the sim I've dreamt of all my simming life.
Unfortunately there's too many things that make me feel it's both a rip off and is coming across as massively elitist.

I have absolutely no doubt it will be the best sim ever seen by a long way as far as physics and tracks are concerned, but the initial crappy content and huge doubts as to whether enough people are going to buy into it due to those iRipoff prices will be keeping me away for quite a while.
As mentioned before, any piece of software is licensed to you. You don't own it. You may be able to use it indefinitely, but it doesn't belong to you.

The term iRental is not therefore very accurate. You'd be paying for a service, as you might your TV or internet service. And it makes anyone using the term 'iRental' look a bit immature in my opinion.

The pricing model is contentious. But it will actually be bad for the sim racing niche if the entire enterprise fails. Sim development for the PC will likely continue, but if the most well funded sim company ever formed can't succeed (and I think sim racing needs a change one way or another) then it could affect the landscape for developers later on to get decent sim's produced. If they all jump ship to consoles I know I wouldn't be happy.

What I'd like to see is their service succeed, and therefore increase the health and stature of PC sim racing so that other sims such as LFS, nkPro, yep even the ISI based stuff (and Lizard?) etc continue to flourish also.

No one is forced to buy in. If the pricing model doesn't suit you, choose something else. My guess is every sim racer would want to try it, but many are probably unhappy that they won't be able to afford or justify the cost.
Quote from dontsimon :As mentioned before, any piece of software is licensed to you. You don't own it. You may be able to use it indefinitely, but it doesn't belong to you.

Quote from SamH :to deliver a licence to the most physically realistic racing sim.

Quote from dontsimon :The term iRental is not therefore very accurate. You'd be paying for a service, as you might your TV or internet service. And it makes anyone using the term 'iRental' look a bit immature in my opinion.

I disagree. My mortgage analogy was less accurate because at the end of a mortgage term, you can still live in the house. No matter when you stop paying iRental, the content is inaccessible then on. This is why iRental fits better than iBuy, iFinance, iMortgage or iLease-To-Own. In terms of software, there are very few software packages out there with a finite licencing term. Even $10,000 of Windows server licence is licenced for life, even if support for it will end. At the end of it, useful/modern/secure or not, you can still deploy it for life once you've paid the licence.

AOL is giving away laptops with their internet service provision. At the end of the contract, you still keep the laptop, the modem/router, yadayada. iRental is selling its entire service as a service, and yet there are components within it that you buy - new cars, tracks etc. However, once you stop paying for the service, you also lose the rights to use the components you've bought. This is a fundamental flaw in the pricing model that will not serve the sim well.
Quote from dontsimon :The pricing model is contentious. But it will actually be bad for the sim racing niche if the entire enterprise fails. Sim development for the PC will likely continue, but if the most well funded sim company ever formed can't succeed (and I think sim racing needs a change one way or another) then it could affect the landscape for developers later on to get decent sim's produced. If they all jump ship to consoles I know I wouldn't be happy.

I don't perceive iRental to be make/break for the PC-based sim.
Quote from dontsimon :What I'd like to see is their service succeed, and therefore increase the health and stature of PC sim racing so that other sims such as LFS, nkPro, yep even the ISI based stuff (and Lizard?) etc continue to flourish also.

I would too. My choice not to invest does not imply a desire for the sim to fail. Anyone who interprets iRental dissention from anyone here in those terms is themselves in error.
Quote from dontsimon :No one is forced to buy in. If the pricing model doesn't suit you, choose something else. My guess is every sim racer would want to try it, but many are probably unhappy that they won't be able to afford or justify the cost.

I would agree there. Some people can't raise enough for LFS for a lifetime licence. Far more will be unable to manage an ongoing rental programme. That's just the world we live in.
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(dontsimon) DELETED by SamH : double-post
Quote from SamH :I don't perceive iRental to be make/break for the PC-based sim.

Yes, I didn't mean to be quite so black and white about it. I too don't think it will make or break sim racing on the PC, but that it will be a shame if it fails, and that it will be good for PC based sim racing if it does succeed.
Quote from dontsimon :Yes, I didn't mean to be quite so black and white about it. I too don't think it will make or break sim racing on the PC, but that it will be a shame if it fails, and that it will be good for PC based sim racing if it does succeed.

I concur 100%

[edit] 80%. I don't think the move FROM purchase to a rental scenario is beneficial to anything/anyone.. PC-based or otherwise.
Quote from SamH :To long to quote, edited for ease of use.

Couldn’t agree more. The thing that will likely put me off is that I can't grantee I'll play it enough to get value for money. And as a Scot I don't part with the money unless there is a product for me that I could use. The £24 I paid for LFS doesn’t measure up to what Iracing is wanting, however I will give it a month trial (book holiday I think) and may change my mind.
I actually find the idea of moving over from things to services quite a good one, atleast theoretically. When you buy anything, such as a computer- you're paying for all the materials that make up the computer.. glass, plastic, lead etc. But you don't actually want any of that stuff, you just want to use the computer! From an environmental perspective atleast, it's much better if the company takes responsibility for all those materials and sees to it that they're recycled at the end of a product's useful lifetime- and one way to do that is through rentals.

In practice though, I don't think it works so well. Everything ends up more expensive for the consumer when in fact it should be cheaper. Why World of Warcraft has been such an enormous success by going with this model is a complete mystery to me.

edit: sorry for the slightly OT
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(RMachucaA) DELETED by RMachucaA
Quote from Electrik Kar :Why World of Warcraft has been such an enormous success by using this model is a complete mystery to me.

Never underestimate the power of computer nerds...
Quote from Electrik Kar :Why World of Warcraft has been such an enormous success by going with this model is a complete mystery to me.

Group mentality, simple as that... WoW created a hype prior to its launch, and everyone wanted to be "in"... Just like what happens with iRacing...

Many question marks have been brought up throughout the last pages... Will iRacing feature weather? dynamic tracks with varying grip levels, such as dirt on the track and racing groove? Will it feature authentic and detailed damage? How adjustable is its pricing in terms of suspending a week/month? How will special leagues (for example national ones) work within the server landscape of iRacing?

Or is it "just" a rented LfS with better graphics, tracks and tyre model?
Quote from bbman :Will iRacing feature weather? dynamic tracks with varying grip levels, such as dirt on the track and racing groove?

im sure they would already have hyped the hell out of that if it did
:rolleyes:

Why don't you list for us all of the features that are present, according to the hype?

...

I don't know why they don't itemize individual features for us at this point, but they don't.
Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo ::rolleyes:

Why don't you list for us all of the features that are present, according to the hype?

First one that comes to mind without even thinking is "laser-scanned tracks". In fact, anything laser-related comes to mind automatically. Bzzzt.
To have all content, and have a years access it will be $266 if I worked it out correctly. $155 of that is monthly subscriptions... And this is including a $60 discount you get when purchasing an annual subscription.

"What Gameplay Options Are Included?

Note: iRacing will continually develop and gameplay options will be added throughout its development. Just because it is not listed in the launch material is no indication it will not be added. This section will be updated as we learn of new features to be added

Live groove: unknown
Animated pit crews: unknown
What are the garage options on the different cars: unknown
Are there day to night transitions: unknown
Is a spectator mode included: unknown
Weather - is rain included: Not at launch
Changeable weather: unknown
Clutch support: unknown
Driver changes: unknown
Ability to join in qualy: unknown
Ability to rejoin mid race: unknown
Are non US character sets supported: unknown
Is telemetry included: unknown
What kind of driver stats can be displayed: unknown
Can engines catch fire, drop oil etc.: unknown"
ROFL at that.

Are those known unknowns, or unknown unknowns? Or perhaps unknown knowns....

I suppose they're things that we know that we don't know. But for sure there are also things that we don't know that we don't know.
Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :ROFL at that.

Are those known unknowns, or unknown unknowns? Or perhaps unknown knowns....

I suppose they're things that we know that we don't know. But for sure there are also thing that we don't know that we don't know.

LOL yeah, it all sounds very professional though so it makes up for the lack of proper information
Make you broke: known
Quote from Christopher Raemisch :LOL yeah, it all sounds very professional though so it makes up for the lack of proper information

Still if those were the thigns that would be known, known to be included along with some other stuff like grip varying and rubber put on track -> increased grip and so on, i would not doubt the product, not for a second at the current pricing. Then and only then will the pricing scheme be acteptable to me, not bcz of some leet mapping and modeling and bcz of equal race system.
We can somehow experience close racing in leagues such as OLFSL, where racing tends to be as close as possible. If that is the only thing they are providing, then i wish them very best of luck. But as i allready said, if all those unknowns are gonna turn ou to be fully supported, thus trully providing the ralism in racing as never before seen, then i would consider purchasing it very seriously.
Live groove: Yes indeedy
Dirty offline: Yes indeedy
Weather : Nope

Force feedback : Not as good as nKPro, better than rFactor (not hard ) That's subjective of course, but i trust the judgement of the guy i was talking to.
What Tracks Are Included In The Initial Subscription?
Lime Rock Park x 2 (with or without the chicane)
Laguna Seca
Summit Point x 4?
South Boston
Lanier
Oxford Plains
Lowe's Motor Speedway x 4


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What annoys me is that there is only 3 road tracks we get and the rest is ovals. This annoys me when i think about the cost of buying additional tracks. I would have wanted to exchange those 4 ovals with 4 road tracks.
I don't want to sound ignorant (although I probably will) but why do they need to laser scan ovals anyway? Surely that kind of technology would be much better suited to the more complex road tracks?
This thread is closed

iRacing
(13671 posts, closed, started )
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