The online racing simulator
"Push to pass"
(135 posts, started )
Quote from colcob :Hey. My momo pedals already do that.

mine thinks that i drive to fast...
I'm sorry to push up this old thread, but after seeing the A1 Grand Prix yesterday I would really like to see a "Push to Pass" button as a server option for the racing cars, so that the admin could determine how many times a racer gets to push the button in a race.

It really added some excitement to yesterday's race and strategy-wise push-to-pass is cooler then pit-strategies I think.

It is a nice and real aspect of motor racing and I think it could add to, for instance, FOX racing.
Quote from XCNuse :okay.. well if you dont know what this is, its in the champ car racing series here in the US.

Stupid idea.

Driving faster will get you a lot more.

Its something for good spectating, not good racing. Silly, silly.
Another vote for NO here!
They have such a button in the A1 GP-Series (GP of Nations).
They can push this button 9 times during a race.

I also don't think, we need this in LfS.
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
it would be good if there was a special car made for this (champ car clone or A1 clone). and only implemement it on races more than 20 laps. it should also be disabled for hotlapping. could also be a server option.
i think in short races it would be too gimicky but on long races it could add alot in terms of strategy.
i'm sure it cant be that hard to change some variables that control engine speed for a certain amount of time.
maybe an S3 thing....
lol niki im pretty sure all the ideas in this forum are for S3

but i agree, another car please! lol.. that seems more logical really.. i mean.. no point in having it on FOX (been so long i dont know what i posted lol) .. whatever.. no need in FOX, we need a car similar to champ cars

..pretty much everything you say niki i agree with lol
Quote from skiingman :Its something for good spectating, not good racing. Silly, silly.

I don't really agree with that. First of all, more overtaking also produces more exciting racing imho, not just better watching. Secondly and more importantly, it adds a tactical element I think could be fun. This button will not magically teleport you in front of the car in front of you, it requires skill to use (and can be countered with skill by the defending driver).

Nobody is asking for this to be present on every server, it should of course be a server-side option to give drivers an X amount of these.

Finally, it is present in several real-life racing classes, so the option for a server to run push-to-pass-buttoned cars would increase LFS' ability to recreate as many forms of RL racing as possible. I don't really see what can be wrong with that.
Quote from bobvanvliet :I don't really agree with that. First of all, more overtaking also produces more exciting racing imho, not just better watching. Secondly and more importantly, it adds a tactical element I think could be fun. This button will not magically teleport you in front of the car in front of you, it requires skill to use (and can be countered with skill by the defending driver).

Do you ever run KY Oval in the FV8?

The massive drafting effect is similar to "push to pass" and it encourages blocking and otherwise unclean racing. Its fun...for about 20 minutes. It would be much more interesting if that effect was more realistic IMO.

Maybe I don't join the uber-cool servers, but in the Formula cars I'm rarely involved in a race that's close enough for such a concept to make a difference anyhow. As noted, the massive drafting effect already serves the same purpose of what you are talking about, and I'm kind of annoyed by it.
Quote :
... would increase LFS' ability to recreate as many forms of RL racing as possible. I don't really see what can be wrong with that.

I don't agree that those "real life" classes are actually exhibiting racing, I believe they are mere shows put on to draw crowds and make money. Real racing tends to be more expensive.
Quote from skiingman :
I don't agree that those "real life" classes are actually exhibiting racing

That's ok, no one is forcing you to, that's the beauty of democraty.
What IS racing ? Or more appropriately, what do you consider 'racing' ?
What i don't understand is why you don't see the link between:

Quote from skiingman : I believe they are mere shows put on to draw crowds and make money.

and
Quote from skiingman : Real racing tends to be more expensive.

First off, "shows put on to draw crowds" ?! Isn't that what a show IS by
definition ?! I'd like an example of a show NOT meant to attract
attention/people or make money. Even charities do JUST that. You can't
deny the fact that things cost money and that you need people to pay
for that. Publicity/sponsoring is one of the most used way to get money
in racing. The cars themselves are a shame to any tree-hugging anti-
globalization hippie. Covered in stickers from various companies, who's
only intend is to 1-get attention to 2-eventually make more money.

Now, considering YOU are the spectator, can you at least appreciate the
fact that someone actually cares about you enough to find ways to make
it more enjoyable for you ? We can contest the validity of 'enjoyable', but
not it's intentions.

As much as 'Push-2-Pass' sounds ricey to me and scares the conservative
geezer in me, i find all arguments valid and have a hard time finding fault in
something meant to increase the strategic side of racing. What IS racing?
Is it the driver? the car? The team, the people who build the cars, Bernie
Ecclestone, the actual people making these things exist, the spectators?
Is it the strategic pitting for tires and fuel and settings? So, which one is it?
Is it ALL of these ? I find it hard to define racing myself. All i know, is it sure
seems to depend on your perspective.
Quote from Fonnybone :What IS racing?
Is it the driver? the car? The team, the people who build the cars, Bernie
Ecclestone, the actual people making these things exist, the spectators?
Is it the strategic pitting for tires and fuel and settings? So, which one is it?
Is it ALL of these ? I find it hard to define racing myself. All i know, is it sure
seems to depend on your perspective.

F1 as the queen of all motorsports seems to be handy example for this discussion. And eventhough it's difficult to define what is racing, indeed, I honestly believe that LFS is closer to F1 than to NASCAR, or closer to WRC than to some Monster Truck Madness and similiar shows. (Sorry I don't have examples here, because I don't watch such things. I know they exist to watch them, but to me they got the cheap disneyland taste).

I'm not saying that for example drifting with its D1 events doesn't attract many many people. I'm just saying my oppinion where I see the Liveforspeed belongs. Or, better said, inclines.
Quote from Fonnybone :
You can't
deny the fact that things cost money and that you need people to pay
for that. Publicity/sponsoring is one of the most used way to get money
in racing. The cars themselves are a shame to any tree-hugging anti-
globalization hippie. Covered in stickers from various companies, who's
only intend is to 1-get attention to 2-eventually make more money.

Fine. They can do all this without changing it from "racing" to "spectacle".
Quote :
Now, considering YOU are the spectator, can you at least appreciate the
fact that someone actually cares about you enough to find ways to make
it more enjoyable for you ? We can contest the validity of 'enjoyable', but
not it's intentions.

No, I don't appreciate it. None of these spectacles are designed to be interesting to race fans. They are designed to be interesting to people NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING A REAL RACE.

The financial issues involved aren't my problem. When men were men, no one complained about the race team being a money loser. Now some series have teams that EXPECT to profit. Silly. Winners should profit...losers should lose. Cost of racing.
Quote :
As much as 'Push-2-Pass' sounds ricey to me and scares the conservative
geezer in me, i find all arguments valid and have a hard time finding fault in
something meant to increase the strategic side of racing.

Strategic side?

As in, NASCAR "strategically" guaranteeing you are given an entire free lap on the competition so the race can be artificially closer? Bullshit.

Strategy is ensuring you don't end up a lap down in the first place.
Quote :
What IS racing?

A contest of speed betwen vehicles innovatively built to a common standard. With a minimum of rules to interfere with the contest to see who finishes first.
Quote :
All i know, is it sure
seems to depend on your perspective.

I disagree. I think pure racing is inherently simple. Run around the track without going off, attempt to pass the white line before the other guy. Complexities abound when the road is wet (GASP! Racing in the wet? Southerners...er...NASCAR drivers can't do that!) or the car needs repair, fuel, adjustments, whatever.

Race fans enjoy racing. Promoters are not happy with just "race fans", they want to put on a spectacle to attract more people. How popular is real wrestling? How popular is "pro" wrestling?

NASCAR, CART, IRL, et. al. are all forms of "pro" racing, where the fans often don't acknowledge they aren't seeing the genuine article.
Quote from skiingman :No, I don't appreciate it. None of these spectacles are designed to be interesting to race fans. They are designed to be interesting to people NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING A REAL RACE.

er... you might want to reread about it then, because it was in fact made exactly for that reason and for strategy..
no push to pass imho. its a lame tactic.
Quote from XCNuse :er... you might want to reread about it then, because it was in fact made exactly for that reason and for strategy..

What are you talking about?

The sole reason it exists is to artificially increase the number of times overtaking occurs.
Regardless of the merits of Push To Pass in real life, in LFS it would be a waste of code.
As it only occurs in one real life racing series, I can't see why the devs would want to implement it in LFS, especially considering they aren't simulating any real life series at all. The only sim I would expect to see PTP in would obviously be an Indy sim.
Quote from Hankstar :it only occurs in one real life racing series

Not to be rude here, but read the thread and/or do your homework.

I'm still of the opinion that push-to-pass adds something, and if it's so impopular as this thread implies, there won't be many servers running the option...

Hey, there are a lot of people who think drifting is bad, but there are a few servers for those (not me, btw) that like it. Why can't it be the same for PtP? Then you can all look down on the losers who race there .
are you sure skiingman? would you like me to point it out to everyone here? well.. here it is, this is from the link i posted on page2 of this thread
Quote :In an effort to make the race more competitive - and who would argue with that as a laudable ambition?...The Push-to-Pass technology gives the drivers more ability to pass . . . and we expect a lot of action this year

and if you look other places, you will see that it does say it was made for spectators and racers alike

@hankstar; trust me hah.. you will NEVER see this on an indy car game... evern; the only racing that uses push to pass is formula atlantic
#69 - Gunn
I think push to pass is embarassing in real life and certainly dilutes the whole motorsport experience. I'll never pay to watch it.
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Quote from Gunn :I think push to pass is embarassing in real life and certainly dilutes the whole motorsport experience. I'll never pay to watch it.

I think, the reason why push to pass is introduced into a rascing league is quite simple: If there are only few overtakings, the race is boring. Boring races don't attract many spectators. Fewer spectators mean the sponsors will pay less.

Therefor, push to pass is simply another method to maximize spectators and thus increasing the profits...
Quote from XCNuse :@hankstar; trust me hah.. you will NEVER see this on an indy car game... evern; the only racing that uses push to pass is formula atlantic

http://boss.streamos.com/wmedi ... _hatch/brands_hatch-1.wvx




and BTW, if you search and read more about the A1 GRAND PRIX project, you will probably agree with me, that it's gonna be a very racing happening - absolutely same cars, just different setups, powerboost button with exactly the same functionality and rules as the originator of this thread suggested, national teams (all 20 members of the whole team have to be from the same nation, great!) - I like the idea, and so I'm slowly moving from the opponents to the supporters gang for this Push to Pass idea.

LiveForSpeed inspired the biggest motorsports event of these days, YAY!
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
#72 - Gunn
Yes the A1 is dissapointing right from the very beginning. First they promise a series based on driver vs. driver, then they add a push to pass button. Crazy.

Much of the problem with lack of overtaking opportunities these days stems from a modern machine on an out-dated circuit. Tracks are often too skinny for the fast cars of today, they go quick they stop quick. A well-designed circuit would help alleviate many problems. Motor racing has had no problem attracting crowds since the early 1930's, push to pass is not the answer to inject excitement. Push to pass makes you doubt the driver's skill. I recall drivers like Mansell, Senna, Prost, Piquet, Lauda, and the like all having moments of sheer bravery and brilliance when overtaking or defending under pressure. These moments are created when skilled and brave drivers use their skill and wits to battle each other. Overtaking is supposed to be hard. The "take" part hints at action. Something that must be earned.

To add such measures for spectator appeal is really sad. With push to pass, overtaking becomes just a ritual. I want to see them earn their positions, I want to know the true winner.
Quote from Gunn :Yes the A1 is dissapointing right from the very beginning. First they promise a series based on driver vs. driver, then they add a push to pass button. Crazy.

Much of the problem with lack of overtaking opportunities these days stems from a modern machine on an out-dated circuit. (...) Motor racing has had no problem attracting crowds since the early 1930's, push to pass is not the answer to inject excitement. Push to pass makes you doubt the driver's skill. I recall drivers like Mansell, Senna, Prost, Piquet, Lauda, and the like all having moments of sheer bravery and brilliance when overtaking or defending under pressure. These moments are created when skilled and brave drivers use their skill and wits to battle each other. Overtaking is supposed to be hard. The "take" part hints at action. Something that must be earned.

This is where the concept of racing differs from one person to another.
I prefer to see gladiator-style racing. Give 'em cars too powerfull for their
chassis, and let drivers battle out for outright guts.

Racing used to be about having the biggest balls not about being as
consistent as possible not to be out of place in an otherwise 'perfect'
equation. This is why the public has such a fascination with race drivers.
Gladiator racing has been popular for 1000s of years. Schumacher might
seem like a courageous person compared to his contemporaries, but
as hard as driving an F1 must be, i doubt it compares to most racing done
in the 20-30's, and i bet Ben-Hur would kick his butt until he cries like a
little girl. I wonder how many people complained about 'dumbing down'
charriot races...
- "Those spikes are totally gay"
- "I liked gladiator racing when it was more about the racing than the killing.."

Today's racing is all about the machines and unfortunately, people don't
care for the machines as much as the drivers, probably because drivers
don't have as much credit for using a machine made to work at 10/10th
all the time. It's all a question of millisecond.

What made pasing a skill is exactly that cars were much more powerfull
(relative to the rest of the cars) and dangerous, even in the in the 70-80s,
the F1 golden era, and therefore the driver with the most guts came out on
top. Just seeing drivers in the 30s fall out of 100mph+ vehicles as it crashes
through the crowd and kills 10s of people was enough to warrant fascination
for a person who would chose to do such a thing. It's like those astronauts,
you guys ever ask yourself if you'd accept to be strapped to explosive and be
rocketed out into space ? It takes guts to try things despite the danger.

In that regard, NASCAR is much less dumbed down than F1 because, like
it's always been in the past, it's a showcase of driver courage. Wether
the danger is there or only perceived is not important imo. It's the
closest thing to the oldest form of racing, NASCAR IS the modern
chariot racing imo. F1 is just a bunch of rich snobs counting on technology
to give them artificial courage and capabilities. The danger is just not felt
by the spectators until the driver dies or something really dramatic happens.
NASCAR is gritty and dirty and reflects reality much better, there's
cheating and b!tching and contact, no one wants people to get hurt, but
they still like contact. They'll even throw a punch or two sometimes.
Now, i don't like NASCAR myself, but i can appreciate it and sometimes like
to watch lower classes of stockcar racing where you see old 70's Malibus
bashing with T-birds and such in a 1-mile oval. It's just more fun to watch
than a bunch of high speed trains, F1 is about as fun to watch as golf or
listening to baseball on the radio sometimes. There's just no action.
OK Duckboy, I happily stand corrected.

But who uses PTP is irrelevant when you consider that my point was this: The vast majority of RL racing series don't use it, and good or bad for racing, right or wrong, whatever race series do use it, you probably won't see this function in LFS, because, unless I've got it totally wrong or I've misread the devs' own press releases, LFS is more about accurately simulating driving and racing than replicating every single thing or function that real cars can do or have. Plus there are still only 3 guys making this game, and I think 2 of them don't have very much at all to do with car physics.
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
i agree with your post there hankstar, but its always good to point out things that may bring people to the game

not saying that LFS needs to simulate ALL types of racing, its just something things in certain types of racing are interesting to think about; much less try .. but unfortunately, i doubt many people here could afford to guy "try out" say.. an F3000 lol (yes i know, they do have schools, but thats besides the point )

"Push to pass"
(135 posts, started )
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