The online racing simulator
Rfactor vs LFS
(1890 posts, started )
Quote from Shotglass :fine ... as long as i can turn them off

Cool, so real race cars has a "turn off annoying gearbox sound" button in the cockpit?
Quote from deggis :Cool, so real race cars has a "turn off annoying gearbox sound" button in the cockpit?

no but just because they havent means ill have to use earplugs like them just to enjoy my favourite pasttime without going mental
Quote from Woz :Oh well, I decided to look at rFactor again as I have not touched since early on.

I downloaded the latest version, installed and started it up. 1 hour after playing with the visual settings and it is still a slide show on the lowest settings. OMG what a pile of crap.

Before people shout its your machine....

I run on a 3000+ AMD64 lappy with 512Mb and 64Mb ATI 9600 pro. This lappy runs the likes of Doom III without issue at good FPS and runs LFS perfect.

Why is rF so demanding. I have DX7 selected and EVERY visual setting at LOW and 800*600*16bit with NO AA or AF and its still a slide show.

It used to run fine with the first point release so what have they done to this piece of crap. Its not like I am well above the minimum requirements?

Hmm, that is odd thing to happen, I'm getting 20-90fps(depends from mod and track, 90fps only with my shitty looking Kantti mod) with DX7 settings at high or full, trilinear, 1024x768x32 no AA
A3200+ and Radeon 9550, but 1GB of memory and desktop.
Your gfx card is perhaps somewhat more powerful and I think that should mean most with rfactor, anyway with your system it really should run much faster, something is not right somewhere.

btw, quite pointless arguing wich is better as rfactor and LFS are not competing, imo. rfactor is nice platform to get stuff made, but it is so much different from LFS that we really can't compare them well. LFS is great to race, when rfactor is great to build something, it is platform to build something.
Graphics are really not part of realistic sim experience, just some eyecandy that is quite meaningless. When we get motion simulators and possibility to good 3d picture, then we can start to get into nice graphics
#879 - Woz
Quote from JTbo :Hmm, that is odd thing to happen, I'm getting 20-90fps(depends from mod and track, 90fps only with my shitty looking Kantti mod) with DX7 settings at high or full, trilinear, 1024x768x32 no AA
A3200+ and Radeon 9550, but 1GB of memory and desktop.
Your gfx card is perhaps somewhat more powerful and I think that should mean most with rfactor, anyway with your system it really should run much faster, something is not right somewhere.

btw, quite pointless arguing wich is better as rfactor and LFS are not competing, imo. rfactor is nice platform to get stuff made, but it is so much different from LFS that we really can't compare them well. LFS is great to race, when rfactor is great to build something, it is platform to build something.
Graphics are really not part of realistic sim experience, just some eyecandy that is quite meaningless. When we get motion simulators and possibility to good 3d picture, then we can start to get into nice graphics

How much vid ram does your card have?
Bah, okay you win! I'll give it a try, and see what I think (rather than just having my blind fanboy opinion [I do normally try things before I turn my nose up at them, just not this one]).

Won't have the time to have a proper fiddle until next week though
Quote from Woz :Oh well, I decided to look at rFactor again as I have not touched since early on.

I downloaded the latest version, installed and started it up. 1 hour after playing with the visual settings and it is still a slide show on the lowest settings. OMG what a pile of crap.

Before people shout its your machine....

I run on a 3000+ AMD64 lappy with 512Mb and 64Mb ATI 9600 pro. This lappy runs the likes of Doom III without issue at good FPS and runs LFS perfect.

Why is rF so demanding. I have DX7 selected and EVERY visual setting at LOW and 800*600*16bit with NO AA or AF and its still a slide show.

It used to run fine with the first point release so what have they done to this piece of crap. Its not like I am well above the minimum requirements?

running at 800x600 here - now things run smooth... Except:

So I'm in a 10 lap race and starting from lap 5 onwards a certain point on an official track drops my FPS to 0.5. When I crash through that part I get again like 30 FPS... now, I'd understand if it was one part of track that did this always - but no! It started from lap 5.illepall

Additionally: @ 1024*860 when I am approaching cars in front of me then the frame rate does not drop. However, when a car from behind passes me I get 1 FPS instantly. When that car disappears from view it is fine again, but when I catch that car up the FPS bombs again... illepall

And what the hell is up with those 2 lap long caution periods. I run 10 minutes usually and when the caution laps start I know I've lost half of my play time...illepall
#882 - Woz
Quote from PLAYLIFE :running at 800x600 here - now things run smooth... Except:

So I'm in a 10 lap race and starting from lap 5 onwards a certain point on an official track drops my FPS to 0.5. When I crash through that part I get again like 30 FPS... now, I'd understand if it was one part of track that did this always - but no! It started from lap 5.illepall

Additionally: @ 1024*860 when I am approaching cars in front of me then the frame rate does not drop. However, when a car from behind passes me I get 1 FPS instantly. When that car disappears from view it is fine again, but when I catch that car up the FPS bombs again... illepall

And what the hell is up with those 2 lap long caution periods. I run 10 minutes usually and when the caution laps start I know I've lost half of my play time...illepall

Yep, this is what I keep hitting, it runs smooth for a bit then just goes to slide show then back to smooth again. Does not appear to matter what settings I use at all or how many cars are in view.

I have no mods or anything installed so this is a clean install.
Quote from PLAYLIFE :running at 800x600 here - now things run smooth... Except:

So I'm in a 10 lap race and starting from lap 5 onwards a certain point on an official track drops my FPS to 0.5. When I crash through that part I get again like 30 FPS... now, I'd understand if it was one part of track that did this always - but no! It started from lap 5.illepall

Additionally: @ 1024*860 when I am approaching cars in front of me then the frame rate does not drop. However, when a car from behind passes me I get 1 FPS instantly. When that car disappears from view it is fine again, but when I catch that car up the FPS bombs again... illepall


What video card/ CPU/ ram/ etc? It sounds like you just need to upgrade.. Or turn down some GFX options or number of cars visible, or other things.
If there's an issue after so many minutes of play, it might be related to the replay. Try turning off the replay feature and see if this makes a difference.
Quote :no arms

Must depend on which ISI game. GTLegends has it:

gtlhckpnt.wmv

So does GPL, but the shifting is done via telekinesis.

gplkllt.wmv
Well to add more fuel to the fire (have no idea where we started) bought GTR2 today and well to put it mildly i,m very dissapointed , same old rehashed shit thats been served up for years.

I like to give things a fair shake of the stick thats why i bought it in the first place but after a solid 6 hours of tweaking and poking around forums for some insight its not my cuppa tea at all, you know you have problems when the grass has the same grip levels or better than the tarmac,so dissapointed its no better than there free mod for f1 99c or what ever it was.

YUK!!!

Scawen, Eric and Vic ( i know your sort of gone ) keep doing what your doing cos i keep buying different sims but yours is the only one that feels like a car to me, a car with real mass and and a real sense of connection to the road.

Bring on S3 or whatever so i can buy a quality sim
Quote from deggis :http://torttu.net/temp/lfs/carsoundremixer.mp3

still hurts?

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=12863

It's basicly a sound expansion mod, you definately should try it.

Not normally fond of extras running in the background to perform tasks (my box isn't the most powerful for gaming etc so the less the better) but after listening to that sample, while not "perfect" it definitely sounds interesting and think the gearbox whine sounds cool (providing it's an option as an XFG with that sound would mean a new box is required ).

FWIW, just to clarify a bit after reading some posts.. I have no problems with the way LFS generates it's sound. I think it's a great theory and also a "fan" of 'doing something different'. Personally I have no problems with sampled sounds (if they're blended nicely, which after experimenting with, isn't _that_ easy IMO).

I'm no alien in any game but can hold my own in most and very rarely look at my dash displays for critical signs (gear changes etc) and rely on the sound as I pretty much always have in any real car so samples seem to work just fine for me, but I'll still be interested to see where the sound does go in LFS.

As long as I hear an engine and tyre sounds, I'm happy, regardless of how they're produced but it's an interesting system that LFS has adopted and curious to see how it pans out as it could be really great when evolved past the angry bees in a bean can stage (FWIW I didn't do more than half a lap in the rF Megane mod either as they sounded just like LFS cars do so it's not a this game vs that game argument for me)

I also agree JTBo that other than both are driving games, the actual comparison between the 2 is quite remote. The reason I stuck with rF was purely for the ability to create content and learn some extra things.. if LFS was modable too (without hunting memory registers / pointers), I'd definitely be having a crack at making stuff for that too. Fictional / real is of no importance to me either. It's a game, I'm not really Rousse flying about in a Cossie at Brands.. not with my office chair, £50 plastic steering wheel and a coffee in the immediate vacinity and love the models that Eric has created.

You can't beat LFS for quick pickup races.. you fire it up, make a couple of adjustments for your preferences (key mappings etc) and away you go. rF has pretty much non-existent pickup races last time I looked and full of idiots when you do find one or more chatting than racing. The netcode between the 2 IMO is very comparable now, so is the AI (they're both crap and unraceable which is a real shame being an offline racer) but rF wins for longevity due to an ever expanding collection of content (once you weed the crap from the goodness, there are some real gems, there's also plenty of real stinkers) and in most cases, if you don't like something, you can change it.. almost anything.

Different strokes for different blokes and really 2 different concepts. Sure, they all have 5 wheels and represent cars on race tracks, but that's about the end of the comparison IMO.

I tried GTR2 too.. I like it (never played a $limebin game before due to their starfarce infections). It feels like like a complete / finished product.. the handling is nice and how I'd have thought a car that it's representing would feel like. Easy to drive _to_ the limit.. at or over the limit is a different story. The rain however is a joke and looks like exactly what it is.. a 2nd set of polys for the road surface with a reflective material applied.

End of the day, I like racing games. Sometimes I like racing GTR cars, sometimes I like racing Beetles.. thankfully I have that simple choice available made possible by various companies / groups. Hell.. I still love Hard Drivin' and SpyHunter from the 80s!



Regards,

Ian
Quote from Ian.H :Not normally fond of extras running in the background to perform tasks (my box isn't the most powerful for gaming etc so the less the better) but after listening to that sample, while not "perfect" it definitely sounds interesting and think the gearbox whine sounds cool (providing it's an option as an XFG with that sound would mean a new box is required ).

I just tested, first running without CSR and then with it, no difference in FPS. Though I watched a replay instead of actually playing but I guess it makes no difference as it plays exactly the same sounds in replay too (and it doesn't play sounds for other player cars).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vYczmOkQowE

I agree that this CSR is far from perfect - though it's only 0.3 alpha version - but at least it makes you feel like driving a noisy HP beast. That's most important thing. I guess the sounds can be improved a lot just tuning the samples, currently in most of the cars it feels like the engine is always on low RPM and it doesn't start to "scream" until it goes over the red shift light.
Ok I going to admit it, yes I got so indulged in the screenies
from RSC on Tuesday night and proceeded to d/l the latast version.

First off It took me ten minutes to find the bloody link
which I must say I could't see anywhere on the site,
so I click on the shite map and found
it amoungst all the other tripe there.
Got the installer about 45mins or so later and
"corrupt installer" pff! /delete
After a further ten or so minutes I managed to
select one of the crappy links that worked,
and went on with the download.

50% into the d/l my baby comes over and presses a load of
bloody key's d/l stopped
The second time round I got 90% into the d/l and low and behold like a message from the LFS god(prababley a weird ghost of Scawen) all of the electricity goes off in my neighbourhood
NEVER AGAIN! wot a waste of bloody time.
Quote from deggis :I just tested, first running without CSR and then with it, no difference in FPS. Though I watched a replay instead of actually playing but I guess it makes no difference as it plays exactly the same sounds in replay too (and it doesn't play sounds for other player cars).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vYczmOkQowE

I agree that this CSR is far from perfect - though it's only 0.3 alpha version - but at least it makes you feel like driving a noisy HP beast. That's most important thing. I guess the sounds can be improved a lot just tuning the samples, currently in most of the cars it feels like the engine is always on low RPM and it doesn't start to "scream" until it goes over the red shift light.

What dump valve noise is that? or is that part of the CSR?
Niggle mode: In GPL you do get the arm to actually change gear visibly, it just doesn't play back on replays.
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(CSU1) DELETED by CSU1
Quote from Woz :How much vid ram does your card have?

It has 128MB.

In rFactor performance is so much depending from track and car too, there is so many tracks that I can't drive races as GFX power just is not enough, there is awful lot of ppl that look only to pretty graphics and everyone is making mods and tracks only that thing on mind, so optimizing is not very common practise.

I at least try to do my stuff so that it runs well with slower computer, well I have to as my temporarily card is so slow

My Kantti mod is perhaps lightest for rfactor, but defineatly most ugly, it still drives pretty ok for a mod that was made in 12 hours, but intention was not realistic mod, but just something to have fun with
42fps today at back of starting grid with 1280x1024 DX7 full details at Botniaring and 20 AI cars, was impressed as GFX card is really slow.

I'm just waiting WHEN I can start modding LFS, until then rFactor is only one that gives even bit of sensation of car behaving like car should.

Many mods have very weird physics and still they are told to be realistic, with more work (They work with big name mod for almost a year, to make all things I'm talking about it could take two years...) those are possible to make behave much better, for example gravity issues (gravity always not feeling to be pulling down) are usually caused by mods with wrong parameters.

Also rFactor default cars have flaws in that department.

CSU1, I think your problems had nothing to do with game, but distribution of game, really can't judge game solely based on that
I also decided to download rfactor after leaving it alone for a long time (lfs is just too good to leave alone lol), I stuck all the graphics up to max with 16x AF and 4x AA, my gfx card generally doesnt struggle with anything but i did notice at points it dropping to the 30fps range which was a shocker :o

I run a 4000+ 64bit athlon, 256mb geforce 7 7600GT and a gig of ram.

I was generally facinated with the graphics and the sound, the physics arn't too bad but the uphill rally climb is almost bar impossible to control, even with a 40 degree steering range to control the oversteer and understeer. I almost feel like you need a 80 degree angle to control anything :o slip and slide absolutely everywhere, so i gave up with the rally (don't have this problem with LFS and have some serious fun :] ). The tracks arn't too bad, the tire physics seem not to bad here, but could do with some definate improvement, doesn't compare to the traction of LFS. It just doesn't have that 'feel' you get with lfs when taking a corner. The most ridiculously annoying thing with this, is you literally have to fight the steering wheel to get the absolute centre (where you get all the FF effects in rfactor, like the bumps in the road etc etc). with the FF strength on full i was tired after about 5 minutes of racing :o Okay, i might not be too fit, but the majority of this was trying to keep the steering wheel centred I would say the main attraction to rfactor is the graphics and sounds, as they are quite simply astonishing, however, the gameplay just doesn't match LFS. Rfactor has that strange arcadey feel, but i think with a years more development perhaps, it quite possibly could be up for a match against the current LFS in concerns of gameplay. But hey, LFS in a year Don't get me wrong, i think rfactor is quite a good game/sim, but for me personally, i would choose lfs over it.

Just my pennies worth :-) Everyone to their own tbh.
Did you guys noticed how different the samples work in rFactor and in LFS with CSR??
Today i was testing the Seat Leon Mod, and i noticed that when you aply like 30, 40 % of throtlle, the sound is like you released it totally.. like on idle, but in LFS the sound is there, it really matches the revs you're at... totally similiar with LFS synthetic engine..
In rFactor there is same sound till about 50% throtlle, and only when you press it all the way, it sounds good..
I mean, when you say go through some corner where you only need half of throtlle, the sample will fool you, because no matter what, you will hear the same sound like it is bellow 50%.. it's just silly..
I have noticed the same thing in GTR2... weird though. CSR must blend multiple samples better, you can notice the difference clearly even when you turn off LFS's car sound. Though I don't agree that it's totally similar with the synth engine, because it just technically can't be.
Quote :Today i was testing the Seat Leon Mod, and i noticed that when you aply like 30, 40 % of throtlle, the sound is like you released it totally.. like on idle, but in LFS the sound is there, it really matches the revs you're at... totally similiar with LFS synthetic engine..

Quote :I have noticed the same thing in GTR2... weird though. CSR must blend multiple samples better, you can notice the difference clearly even when you turn off LFS's car sound. Though I don't agree that it's totally similar with the synth engine, because it just technically can't be.

I was thinking that LFS maybe outputs the sound in a slightly more sophisticated way than other sims/games which use samples. I can understand how Tweak and some others are maybe feeling concerned, or trying to sound a warning- that LFS may be getting dumbed down with the CSR/sampled thing... but I'm betting that it's the output information, not how you render it- sample/synth, that's really important.

Wish I could get the proper story on how sounds in LFS are generated. At the moment, I think it's a pretty basic system (simple tone controlled by pitch) and samples fit within that system rather well, but I bet Scawen has a bigger unfinished plan regarding the synthesised route... and maybe samples won't work within that system.

Also, with CSR, the samples must be blended, but that's fine. To me it sounds better and more natural than a regular tone running through the whole system, but then it depends on the quality of the wavs and their relation to one another. Some of the CSR car sounds I really love, some I don't, and some- I'm getting used to.
Quote from Boris Lozac :Today i was testing the Seat Leon Mod, and i noticed that when you aply like 30, 40 % of throtlle, the sound is like you released it totally.. like on idle

Maybe it's the gas pedal that fools you, not the sound? ISI engine has this strange pedal mapping "feature":
Quote :My gas pedal has a big dead zone, how can I fix this?
Assign the brake pedal axis first and then the gas pedal axis.

http://www.10tacle.com/gtr-game/en/index.php?FAQs#8
Quote from Electrik Kar :(...) I think it's a pretty basic system (simple tone controlled by pitch) and samples fit within that system rather well(...)

Wrong, i think it simulates every explosion inside the engine like a real engine, not a simple tone controlled by pitch
#900 - Woz
Quote from Electrik Kar :Wish I could get the proper story on how sounds in LFS are generated. At the moment, I think it's a pretty basic system (simple tone controlled by pitch) and samples fit within that system rather well, but I bet Scawen has a bigger unfinished plan regarding the synthesised route... and maybe samples won't work within that system.

The system is a little more complex than that. The best way to explore the sound system is to download LFSTweak (If there is a version for U) and play with different engine sizes in cars.

This will allow you to see the real flexibility of the LFS sound engine.

Rfactor vs LFS
(1890 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG