Quote from tristancliffe :

But in essence modern cars are massively similar.

Similar? Based on same principles? Yes. Massively similar? No! You're either playing the fool here or you actually believe what you're saying. Yes, a Veyron and a Model T are both motor vehicles, but saying they're massively similar is ludicrous. The ~100 years of development that's gone into several major components in modern cars (all modern cars, not just the super-expensive ones) puts them light years apart in terms of technology. Look at modern tyres and compare them to those of cars from ~100 years ago. They're still round and black but now you can get tyres that provide great grip for tens of thousands of miles for a small amount of money.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Just because modern ones use ECUs and have stuff to make stupid drivers less dangerous in them doesn't make them vastly different.

Yes, it does. If you could go back in time to the release of the Model T and tell Henry Ford that in a few decades we'd have cars that could aid drivers by sampling the state of the car and applying corrective measures he'd be stunned.

Quote from tristancliffe :

A Veyron works on entirely the same principles as a Model T.

No, it doesn't. The Veyron was designed with a (relatively) good understanding of aerodynamics. At the time the Model T was being designed the world's understandings of aerodynamics was much more primitive. There are other key areas where the design principles are vastly different (e.g. the gearbox).

Quote from tristancliffe :

If computers had been invented before cars, then the entire automotive progression from 1890 to 2010 would have occured in months not decades. Or at least could have.

I don't know what to say to that because it's pretty ridiculous.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It changes everything in terms of "phones having the ability to technically do video calling, but being so shite as to make it pointless" to "this could actually be used".

That isn't "changing everything" though, is it? It's bringing an existing technology to more people. Now, they're massively different.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's marketing still. Clever wording to make people want something. We're all fooled by it everyday, whether it be Apple stating that a decent implementation of video calling is better than anything done beforehand, or by Intel saying that new CPUs are better than old because they can fake multi-threading, or by Opel making you think the new model of Vectra is actually better than anything they've made before because its got a touchscreen radio...

Not all of us fall for Apple's blurb (or any other company for that matter). See my thoughts here on the marketing side.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Some things you fall for. Other things you see right through. Doesn't make one right and the other wrong.

It does if it's clearly a specious claim (like with some Apple products). Some innovative or pioneering products are still marketed heavily, of course, but Dyson claiming that their vacuum cleaner design revolutionised the market is true.

Quote from tristancliffe :

In fact, how do we know it won't "change everything"? In 10 years time we might look back and say "isn't video calling great. I remember when it was a shitty addon that didn't really work and that nobody bothered with, but when Apple released that iPhone 4 it really picked up. Thanks Apple". We don't know.

You're right, we don't know.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You'll never work in marketing either...

I've always thought marketing was one of the slimiest professions to be in. I'm glad I won't get a job there.

Quote from amp88 :

Similar? Based on same principles? Yes. Massively similar? No! You're either playing the fool here or you actually believe what you're saying. Yes, a Veyron and a Model T are both motor vehicles, but saying they're massively similar is ludicrous. The ~100 years of development that's gone into several major components in modern cars (all modern cars, not just the super-expensive ones) puts them light years apart in terms of technology. Look at modern tyres and compare them to those of cars from ~100 years ago. They're still round and black but now you can get tyres that provide great grip for tens of thousands of miles for a small amount of money.

But the tyres are still rubber, steel and fabric? Evolution not revolution. You cannot claim, with the exception of electronics that anything in the motor car has ever "Changed everything". That is what I mean. The 100 years of development have resulted in a slightly smaller gearbox that will last longer between services. And engines that are a bit quieter and a bit more economical (but not that much). Maybe you don't know much about how cars work or how things are made?

Quote from amp88 :

Yes, it does. If you could go back in time to the release of the Model T and tell Henry Ford that in a few decades we'd have cars that could aid drivers by sampling the state of the car and applying corrective measures he'd be stunned

No more so than telling him that we'd be able to read books without paper, or make phone calls without wires.

Quote from amp88 :

No, it doesn't. The Veyron was designed with a (relatively) good understanding of aerodynamics. At the time the Model T was being designed the world's understandings of aerodynamics was much more primitive. There are other key areas where the design principles are vastly different (e.g. the gearbox).

The gearbox isn't vastly different. A set of gears, a couple of clutches, some selector forks... The details are different, and the refinement is greater (mostly thanks to computing power in design), but you could have built a modern gearbox 100 years ago (although it might be a bit heavier, as there were simply less materials of sufficient quality).

Quote from amp88 :

I don't know what to say to that because it's pretty ridiculous.

You think? Most of the great improvements in cars have been down to computing power at the design stage? If the computer power had been there from the start (rather than paper and sliderules), then why shouldn't it have occurred much much quicker?

Quote from amp88 :

That isn't "changing everything" though, is it? It's bringing an existing technology to more people. Now, they're massively different.

Neither is making a tyre last a bit longer, but you state that that's a massive difference that changed everything. Why isn't it "changing everything" to go from something that doesn't work (video phones of old) to something that might do (iPhone 4 in particular) from a marketing point of view?

Quote from amp88 :

Not all of us fall for Apple's blurb (or any other company for that matter). See my thoughts here on the marketing side.

This whole conversation is about marketing.

Quote from amp88 :

It does if it's clearly a specious claim (like with some Apple products). Some innovative or pioneering products are still marketed heavily, of course, but Dyson claiming that their vacuum cleaner design revolutionised the market is true.

Did it? I have a Dyson. It needs emptying more frequently. Is less hardy (brittle plastic everywhere) than most cleaners. It sucks up a bit more dirt, but not a vastly different amount. The only real world difference is that you don't have to buy bags. Just more expensive filters.

Quote from amp88 :

I've always thought marketing was one of the slimiest professions to be in. I'm glad I won't get a job there.

Agreed

Quote from tristancliffe :

But I can see that the iPhone 4 implementation of video calls is far better (wifi limitation notwithstanding) way of doing it than previous attempts.

and i presume youre basing this oppinion on the hours of testing youve done with video calling on both other phones and the iphone?

i dont see any point in even considering your oppinions considering youve just shown yourself to be either wildly misinformed or utterly ignorant

WTF! iPhone can only do video calling over wifi, and between iPhones only? I could do video calling years ago on my old SE phone, using the mobile network, to a Nokia phone. Yeah, real groundbreaking stuff there Apple...

Video Calling has never been done though well. Especially in North America, where when it did happen.. it was retardedly expensive.. now it's put into such disuse, that I know one person with a video calling capable phone.. and she didn't even notice it until I did.

It might as well have not existed until the iPhone 4.

Amp: "This Changes Everything" is a perfectly correct slogan. Nobody in North America Videocalls anymore on a mobile phone.. iPhone 4 comes out.. magically there's now a million Video Call capable phones, and that's just US alone. Canada will come soon enough.

Boom, magically you've went from nobody had them to tons of people.. That seems like a large change to me.

Tristan, I guess the haters will still be blind to the fact that the iPhone is just better to use than any other phone out there. They can continue to hack away on their Nokia or Android phones, saying "but but I can run an X11 app even though it takes a year to load the splash screen!"... While we make phone calls, text people, and browse the internet.

Shame really, one of the good things about the telephone was you didn't have to look at the other person's disgusting mug when you talked to them.

It's brilliant, becuase you know what.

It can also work as a normal telephone!

Not from what I've heard.

Quote from 5haz :

Not from what I've heard.

Exceptions don't make rules. I thought this forum would be the most well versed in such a cliché.

Oh sorry, I didn't realise this thread had anything to do with being derious. To be honest any discussion on subjects such as F1 or Apple are so full of gobshite I thought I might as well contribute. Theres always one group who are blinded by their love for Apple/Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso and then theres another group who are blinded by their hatred for the above, and neither group make any sense.

Do carry on, I'm off listening to my iTouch which does its job very well.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

It's brilliant, becuase you know what.



It can also work as a normal telephone!

you're claiming the iphone is brilliant because it works as a normal phone too. i thought it's title kinda gave that one away. ya know....iphone. you must get so excited when you see toast coming out of a normal toaster.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Video Calling has never been done though well. Especially in North America, where when it did happen.. it was retardedly expensive.. now it's put into such disuse, that I know one person with a video calling capable phone.. and she didn't even notice it until I did.

It might as well have not existed until the iPhone 4.

Amp: "This Changes Everything" is a perfectly correct slogan. Nobody in North America Videocalls anymore on a mobile phone.. iPhone 4 comes out.. magically there's now a million Video Call capable phones, and that's just US alone. Canada will come soon enough.

Boom, magically you've went from nobody had them to tons of people.. That seems like a large change to me.

Tristan, I guess the haters will still be blind to the fact that the iPhone is just better to use than any other phone out there. They can continue to hack away on their Nokia or Android phones, saying "but but I can run an X11 app even though it takes a year to load the splash screen!"... While we make phone calls, text people, and browse the internet.

are you trying to be funny or is this you being shit serious? my current phone can make video calls. my old phone too. i can also watch hd movies on my phone. my old one too. and guess what, i can hold it with my left hand and still make a call.
lol, look at you trying to give apple the credit for video calling. now, you'll probably call me a hater too. but how can i hate something i have not tried? i just don't use apple products. they do less than the current gadgets i have so it would actually be a downgrade.
now, you might take offense to this even though i haven't even flamed apple or it's users. and judging by your previous posts in this thread, you're going to spout your usual "haters" pic and then continue to chat about how much better the iphone is compared to other phones. when you know yourself, that each person is different and so are their needs. and some people don't need apple products.
you're starting to come across like one of those scientoligists who try to force their opinion onto others( and apple help anyone who thinks different). let me know if you're having trouble getting off that horse.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't currently own an iPhone 4 as I'm waiting for T-Mobile to release it here, as they are the only provider with decent reception in the UK.

i'm not getting involved in the whole i love / hate iphones debate but thats a bit of a sweeping statement to make tris. what you probably mean is they give the best reception in the places you want it, similarly orange are best for me as they're the only service provider that has a strong enough signal to enable me to make calls etc inside work and they're the only one that i can get a signal at home without either hanging out of the bathroom window (vodafone ) or placing the phone on the end of a broom handle and pointing it as high as possible above my bedroom window (O2 ), not that i've tried the second but a builder found he had reception when replacing the ridge tiles there. t mobile, by their own coverage map, don't have reception within 200 yds and in pracitce it's more like 300

Quote from tinvek :

i'm not getting involved in the whole i love / hate iphones debate but thats a bit of a sweeping statement to make tris. what you probably mean is they give the best reception in the places you want it, similarly orange are best for me as they're the only service provider that has a strong enough signal to enable me to make calls etc inside work and they're the only one that i can get a signal at home without either hanging out of the bathroom window (vodafone ) or placing the phone on the end of a broom handle and pointing it as high as possible above my bedroom window (O2 ), not that i've tried the second but a builder found he had reception when replacing the ridge tiles there. t mobile, by their own coverage map, don't have reception within 200 yds and in pracitce it's more like 300

Yes, sorry. I meant in my village. I must have been distracted by a squirrel when I was writing that sentence

Quote from dadge :

you're claiming the iphone is brilliant because it works as a normal phone too. i thought it's title kinda gave that one away. ya know....iphone. you must get so excited when you see toast coming out of a normal toaster.

IRONY, it's called.

Quote from dadge :

are you trying to be funny or is this you being shit serious? my current phone can make video calls. my old phone too. i can also watch hd movies on my phone. my old one too. and guess what, i can hold it with my left hand and still make a call.

You COULD, but you had (and still have) to pay, and a lot.
Via WiFi, you don't pay. Simple as that.
And read this, an expert says that's an FCC fault, and it's the same with all mobiles.

Quote from dadge :

lol, look at you trying to give apple the credit for video calling. now, you'll probably call me a hater too. but how can i hate something i have not tried? i just don't use apple products. they do less than the current gadgets i have so it would actually be a downgrade.

How can you say they offer less then your "current gadgets" if you haven't tried them?

Quote from dadge :

now, you might take offense to this even though i haven't even flamed apple or it's users. and judging by your previous posts in this thread, you're going to spout your usual "haters" pic and then continue to chat about how much better the iphone is compared to other phones. when you know yourself, that each person is different and so are their needs. and some people don't need apple products.
you're starting to come across like one of those scientoligists who try to force their opinion onto others( and apple help anyone who thinks different). let me know if you're having trouble getting off that horse.

An opinion is a thing, a fact is another one.
Opinion: I don't like the style of iOS.
Fact: It's easier to use then, let's say, Symbian or Android.

Opinion: The AppStore is limited to the apps that Apple puts in it.
Fact: All Apps work at the best and are SAFE to install.
etc.

Yes, needs are different. My grandfather wouldn't need an iPhone, for sure. But, for example, nor did I before trying one. Nor did my mother. We tried it, we changed idea.
I love technologic gadgets, and with my iPhone I can have, in one device, all my music, lots of pics/videos, lots of games, and lots of books.
My mother, on the other hand, loves its user-friendliness. After one year using my old N70, she couldn't even change its ringtone. Even I struggled to, actually. In a week with the iPhone, she could do EVERYTHING.

I'm not forcing anyone buying an iPhone, but usually most of the people that criticize Apple products (maybe it's not your case) have never even tried one, so that their opinion is based just on clichés.

And remember - hating Apple is in fashion at the moment. It's cool to hate them. Much like it used to be cool to hate Microsoft (which seems to have gone out of fashion recently - Windows 7 must be good!!!)

Quote from tristancliffe :

Much like it used to be cool to hate Microsoft (which seems to have gone out of fashion recently - Windows 7 must be good!!!)

sorry... but, no.

-----

It seems there might be a new problem with the iPhone 4... Proximity sensor?

Video calling is not new. The 3 network has supported video calls since its inception all you needed was a phone that supported it. My first phone that could do it was this:

http://deletionpedia.dbatley.c ... eted_29_Apr_2008_at_23:33)

So old the damn thing has been deleted for over 2 years. The apple version is no better and no worse. The only thing stopping video calling taking off is that ultimately it is expensive and crap. Apple have much better marketing than any other phone maker and for some reason people believe the marketing from Apple.

If you are looking for a new phone in this price range then the only advice you need is:

Are you a programmer, interested in open platforms to mess about with?

If you said yes, get an android phone. If you said no, get an iphone. There are no advantages of the Android system to anyone other than geeks that want to mess about unless you are allergic to apples.

Quote from 5haz :

Theres always one group who are blinded by their love for Apple/Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso and then theres another group who are blinded by their hatred for the above, and neither group make any sense.

O Hi there!

Its funny how Dawe all of a sudden attacks the community for using such an "old" cliche now.

Quote from bunder9999 :

It seems there might be a new problem with the iPhone 4... Proximity sensor?

Probably just another glitch in the software, rather than a hardware problem. Not that new - over a week old now.

Quote from DevilDare :

O Hi there!

Its funny how Dawe all of a sudden attacks the community for using such an "old" cliche now.

Yeah well I guess pointing out people's hypocrisy is pointless, seeing as everyone does it.

Not really sure whats harder to accomplish..

Winning a WDC in Formula 1 or winning an iPhone debate.. Each is full of robots, ignorant people, plenty of fans, plenty of haters and lots of technology at its pinnacle to discuss.

Quote from aoun :

technology at its pinnacle to discuss.

Some would disagree

Quote from 5haz :

Some would disagree

I shouldn't have said that

Quote from dadge :

you're claiming the iphone is brilliant because it works as a normal phone too. i thought it's title kinda gave that one away. ya know....iphone. you must get so excited when you see toast coming out of a normal toaster. are you trying to be funny or is this you being shit serious? my current phone can make video calls. my old phone too. i can also watch hd movies on my phone. my old one too. and guess what, i can hold it with my left hand and still make a call.
lol, look at you trying to give apple the credit for video calling. now, you'll probably call me a hater too. but how can i hate something i have not tried? i just don't use apple products. they do less than the current gadgets i have so it would actually be a downgrade.
now, you might take offense to this even though i haven't even flamed apple or it's users. and judging by your previous posts in this thread, you're going to spout your usual "haters" pic and then continue to chat about how much better the iphone is compared to other phones. when you know yourself, that each person is different and so are their needs. and some people don't need apple products.
you're starting to come across like one of those scientoligists who try to force their opinion onto others( and apple help anyone who thinks different). let me know if you're having trouble getting off that horse.

After decyphering this cryptic wall of text:

I'm not saying that video calling is new, or something that has never been done before. What I am saying however is its use in North America, pre-iPhone 4, is about ZERO (atleast on mobile devices). However, with the advent of the iPhone 4, it will likely get put into more use as more people get iPhones.

Hence why it might as well be "new", atleast here. If something is in a state of disuse, to the point it's dead... Apple with the iPhone, revitalizing that function seems like a pretty large change, and video calling will be that "new" thing that most people haven't done.

Also regarding Android being open. Quite possibly the most hilarious thing ever. Someone tried to argue me that Android was more open because they could "root" their phone and gain root privileges to their phone.
Then when argued that iPhones could be jailbroken (which for the record, does give your root access)... tried to claim that it wasn't the same.

Every phone isn't open, they just have different holes to jump through. Android is actually the hardest to root, as you totally haffto re-flash your phone with a custom ROM in most cases, or some random obscure glitch.
iPhone it can be done in user-land (no data is lost, all it requires is a reboot of the phone), but the better jailbreaks are basically the custom firmware ones (which usually allow unlocking and such).

The Palm Pre was the easiest (the konami code let you reboot in admin mode or something similar).

Any other myths Android-fags would like to try to spread? Their "open" platform that has them under a grip tighter than a vice grip on your dick? The one that sends everything you think about to Google? You think about drunk texting that slutty girl down the street? Google knows about it, and will start serving you ads about Escort services or condoms...

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Any other myths Android-fags would like to try to spread? Their "open" platform that has them under a grip tighter than a vice grip on your dick? The one that sends everything you think about to Google? You think about drunk texting that slutty girl down the street? Google knows about it, and will start serving you ads about Escort services or condoms...

While you are going on about it, care to share where in the source that part is happening?
Everything on the google cloud is open to google to wander through at their will but messages do not get passed through google and will work quite happily when not connected to the internet. Google searches are, of course, tracked by google but all search engines do that so what's the fuss?
It's fun to pick holes in folks arguments and easy to be pious but the truth is there is very little difference between the platforms in any real way except for fringe users.
The fringe users that think it is cool to cobble together their own ROM and compile kernels for fun will prefer the Android route. The people that want a phone that is fashionable and has pretty much all the latest features will get an iphone. Everyone else just gets whatever happens to be appropriate for their needs/budget.