Quote from Paranoid Android :

There is only one thing that doesn't change and has an emotionally stable value, it's family

If you see it that way you should consider yourself lucky. I've seen too many people for whom their family was a mixed blessing, or simply a disaster.

Quote :

and frankly, a family portrait tattoo is a bit gay...

I always thought families were the opposite of gay.

If he was a Frenchman he'd be talking about les Hunaudières.

A bit OT, but does anybody know a HOWTO guide to do a fresh system install? I'm starting to get problems with XP, probably caused by software that wasn't uninstalled properly.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

But currently I am ink free.

I'm not. I changed the printer cartridges tonight.

Seriously, why people would want to have a picture painted on them and stay there for the rest of their lives is beyond me. Especially if it's on a body part that they can't see themselves. (But then I'm completely insensitive to rituals and symbols. YMMV.)

Quote from tristancliffe :

Or just accept that prejudice is part of life, always has been and always will be. Get rid of, say, the status, and people will find something else to replace it - nationality, ability to type, age, spelling, join date, avatar etc.

A wonderful line of reasoning. Universal, too. Equally valid for, say, murder. I mean, people will always find a way to kill others, whatever laws and punishments you create. So let's not worry about it, shall we?

Tristan, if you don't like my suggestion then that's fine. But if you want to rationalise it you'll have to think of something better.

He'd be a really sad dog if he'd have his eyes closed and turned his back towards oncoming traffic.

Or maybe he is waiting for the rats to float out of the sewers, so he can have a little snack.

Quote from Bob Smith :

while I agree that the tag creates a mental division, I fail to see where S2 is really "better" or "above" demo, that creates the superiority issue. It just lets people know who's bought the game and who hasn't.

Bob, I don't think I can explain it any better than I did, but I'll try. (Probably be repeat'n myself, tho.)

Prejudice can occur when (1) groups are easily discernible, (2) there is a difference in status. Under those conditions, bad examples from members of the lesser group easily gets generalised into prejudice. The status difference weakens inhibitions on aggressive behaviour.

Condition (2) is covered by LFS being a commercial product. The forum covers condition (1) with the license tag.

Some people here don't see prejudice as a problem that needs attention. But many others do. If you want to solve it, then you can't change (2) so you'll have to tackle (1). Or you must set your hopes on people becoming more mature...

Quote from Huru-aito :

From a business point of view, the demo users have money that belongs to the devs. The money doesn't change hands unless the user is made to feel like he shouldn't be using the demo for more than the evaluational purposes require.

I won't go into that here, because it's OT for this thread. You can look up other recent threads, or PM me for my views.

The point I want to make is that
1. There is a negative attitude towards demo users, whichin many cases isn't warranted by their individual behaviour.
2. There are psychological mechanisms, shown experimentally, that cause the negative behaviour, given a few conditions.
3. One of these conditions is a visible indicator of the group you belong to. On the LFS forum, this is the license tag.
4. You can stop the mechanism by hiding the tag. That will improve the atmosphere on the forum.

Quote :

Forget the blue and brown eyes, hiding the license status on this forum only hides the problem. It doesn't solve it.

You seem to think the problem is demo'ers who never buy S2. It's not. The problem is the negative view of demo users.

Quote from STROBE :

So whilst some licenced users may attack demoers, and some demoers may post utter shite, the problem is with those users, not the licence display system.

You may think you only react to the quality of the posts. But research says your view is subtly distorted by the license tag.

Quote from Huru-aito :

A demo user needs the forum for getting advice [...]. After those things are sorted, the choice is to cough up the money to buy a license or to get out.

How come you know this? Got a PM from Scawen? Had an in-game chat with Victor? Eric mail you? If not, why are you sitting in their chair?

Quote from lerts :

but as i had typed "i beli...." a guy named magico responded to me: what makes you think that? but before i had finished writting that and press enter he responded me

then i said because i think i know why i did that

then i was gonna say : i trust divine justice and as i had typed: "i t..."
he responded to me dont doubt it

This looks like a trick called cold reading. This is used by illusionists, and also by all kinds of "paranormal" frauds. Notice that the answers that he gave so quickly can be used for every response you would give. He didn't need to know what you were going to answer, he only needed some cleverly constructed sentences.

Quote :

we kept chatting for anothe minute though he didnt do the mind reading trick again

He stopped because his cheating would have become apparent.

Quote from duke_toaster :

The current demo situation - dealing with people that in some cases use a demonstration version of a piece of software for long periods, a situation that can be rectified by purchasing a £24 licence. I'm struggling to see the paralells here.

Your own words are a fine demonstration of the parallel with the blue/brown-eyed experiment.

• The devs created a difference in privileges, and a tag that clearly shows the difference. This causes a division in the community. "Us vs. them" thinking sets in.
  
• The privileged group invents a morally tinted, negative image of the other group ("freeloaders"). They are seen as a problem that must be "rectified". As nihil pointed out, the devs did not create that image: they chose to make a demo version without time constraints, no questions asked.
  
• Negative behaviour from members of the "lesser" group reinforces the negative image. It becomes a prejudice against the whole group.
  
• Protests from the "lesser" group are shrugged off. The privileged group feels they are morally justified. Their only answer is forced assimilation ("if you don't like the abuse then buy S2").
  

Quote from Lynce :

Many demo user is what they think twice before opening a thread. Even if they think will answer in a thread and open for comment.

This also has a parallel with the experiment: "These 'inferior' classmates also transformed – into timid and subservient children, including those who had previously been dominant in the class."

Quote :

I also agree that there are people who used to unlock the cracks of S2 illegally. But how to investigate This situation must be investigated in an efficient viewing the status of the person.

Who can see the status to the naked eye? Only a Moderators.

If I understand you correctly, you want to make the tag only visible to moderators, so they can detect crackers. The problem is that Bob Smith said he relies on reports from normal users to catch the crackers, because it's too much work to scan all the posts. So normal users should be able to find the license status somewhere -- but not next to every post.

Quote from duke_toaster :

I'm struggling to see the paralells here.

Then struggle some more. Or read post #27.

Wisdom is one of the few things that look bigger the further away it is. -- Terry Pratchett

Last night I was in my bed, gazing up at the stars, and wondering: where the hell did the ceiling go? -- Unknown

Last edited by wsinda, Thu 28 Aug 2008, 10:40.

Quote from Huru-aito :

This would get rid of any improvement suggestions / demands being posted by freeloaders, and make the forum generally a better place.

It would also get rid of all valuable contributions from demo users (movies, tools, sensible suggestions). Another effect is that the few subforums they can post in will be cluttered with off-topic threads and posts.

Quote from evilpimp :

LOL! That's one crazy lady Must have been fun

Maybe she knew it was going to be fun.
People go stage-diving, crowd-surfing, and running the escalator in the wrong direction. This could become the new craze.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I think removing such tags would just give the idiots something else to focus on.

Psychological experiments suggest otherwise: if you divide a group along an artificial but clearly visible characteristic, the distinction incites discrimination. Especially so if one group gets some privileges.

Quote :

Those who were deemed "superior' became arrogant, bossy and otherwise unpleasant to their "inferior" classmates.

In other words: it's the distinction that creates the idiots, not the other way around.

In the LFS community the license status is the distinction. That's inevitable with a commercial product and a demo version. But if you make the distinction clearly visible with a tag, you are enabling discrimination.

Quote :

I think we just need to actually get serious on this shit, close it sooner and hand out more punishments.

You may weed out the abusive posts, but there will be others that stays below the limit: not enough for a ban, but they still create a negative atmosphere.

Quote from Bean0 :

RTM any abusive posts.

The posts I'm worried about are not abusive as such, but they show a derogatory attitude.

Quote from mrodgers :

Can someone provide a link to the post that abuses a demo user just because he is a demo user?

Here: "You hate to be victim of hate? Get S2."

Or read the whole thread. Plenty of statements saying that "there are good demo users, but <insert negative examples here>". This is discrimination at work, and it all starts at the tag. I want to remove the temptation to go into that mode of thinking.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

Bad idea, I need someone to look down on.

That is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Your remark may be ironic, but others aren't. You summed it up nicely: "I paid 24 quid so I'm better 'n you."

Quote :

More seriously that tag has helped find some crackers in here who were bold and/or dumb enough to ask questions in here hwich proved they were using a crack.

Yes, it has its uses. But that is also possible if you put it somewhere in the user's profile.

Following this recent thread, I want to suggest that the "Demo racer", "S1/2 licensed" tags be omitted. It seems to me that a large number of users see the "Demo" tag under someone's name as an invitation for hostile language. This is a starting point for discriminatory behaviour, and bad for the community.

In some cases it is handy to see someone's license status, but it would be better if it was 2 clicks away (e.g. in the user's profile).

References:
Blue-eyed/brown-eyed experiment
Stanford prison experiment

Quote from sinbad :

The knowledge that nobody can win, particularly against a "super power", is what is supposed to stop these things before they start. Who knows if it has worked.

I don't think it has. In the "Fog of War" documentary, Robert McNamara is clear about the reason why the Cuban Missile Crisis didn't lead to war: "We just lucked out". He was closely involved (Defense secretary), and this opinion was with 30 years of hindsight, so it should count for something.

Quote :

Has there ever been a formal military attack on/invasion of a nuclear equipped nation?

Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is the only example that comes to mind. And perhaps the independence struggle in the French colonies (Indochina, Algeria). But in all cases it was not the mainland that was under attack. OTOH, a country that has nukes usually also has a good set of conventional weaponry, so it's hard to say what the main deterrent is.

Quote from amp88 :

An interesting film which is somewhat centred around this debate is The Fog Of War.

Watching right now.

Quote from sinbad :

I know there's an argument that they prevent conflict because they pose a threat.

They do?? The world has been on the brink of nuclear war a couple of times...

@CrAbStEr DrIfTeR: Can you explain if you want layouts or tracks?

- A layout is easy to put together and graphically simple. But it does not show up on the server list with its own name, nor does it have its own statistics on LFS World (e.g. WRs).

- A track has much more variables (objects, textures, curves, surfaces, elevation differences, bumps, ...). It will show up in the track list and in LFSW, just like Blackwood, Aston, etc.

So, what do you have in mind: layouts with more variation than the current ones, or a kind of easy-to-use track builder?

On what machine should this list of hosts be maintained? It has to be on a local machine, because the connection to the central LFS server could be blocked by a proxy.

An alternative solution is to maintain a page on a local web server. the page can contain links to the hosts. (You will need to have Join2LFS installed, though. And I'm not quite sure if it will work for local hosts.)

I get the same twisted feelings with many videos of "funny" accidents. Some viewers roar with laughter, but I often cringe because people could get seriously injured.

I think you can experience beauty because the consequences are hidden from sight. (Okay, these shots are all from tests, so nobody got hurt. Except for the wildlife, and the people who got cancer a few decades later.) For a better balance you should at least hear the actual sound of the blasts. Or even better, survivors' stories from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, talking about loved ones being cooked alive or slowly dying from radiation.

Another antidote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-DeHE1V-uk

Quote from Fabri91 :

Or is he the chap that drowned in the Rainbow Warrior, sunk by french frogmen?

Bingo. The frogmen were agents of the French secret service. They were sentenced to 10 years by New Zealand. Due to heavy French "diplomacy" they got out of jail after serving only 2 years, returned to France and got promoted.