Would "invert selection" be a useful function?

I was showing Leo an issue and at one point I wanted to delete all the triangles other than what I had selected. He asked "do you have invert selection?" and I said no.

I had to: hide selected, select all, delete, unhide all

Suppose it would be simpler and more intuitive to: invert selection, delete

Though I don't remember people asking for this, maybe it's not that useful? What do you think?

Thanks, I agree those tiny triangles should be acceptable so I'm having a look at that.

Thanks for the feedback.

Quote from Evolution_R :

(latest attached screenshot seems fine, yet there is an error), points are close, but not that close.

Please can you cut out that tiny part of the model, including those round buttons, maybe save it as a tiny sre file and attach it here (no need for textures) just so I can see it and get an idea of the size involved.

Ideally the code would detect error triangles but not small triangles that are there for a reason.

In D17 there is a convenient 'find' function to quickly select a point or triangle that is reported as having an issue.

Editor Test Patch D17:

I'm short of time today but added a couple of features that make yesterday's model error reporting more useful.

New 'find' buttons to select error triangles or bad normals
New button to select a point by entering the point index
Index of a single selected point or triangle is displayed
Rearranged buttons in tri mode to line up with point mode

It has a new identifier for excessively small triangles which can be the cause of bad normals.

I can think of two main causes for bad normals. A 'bad normal' is when LFS can't understand which way a surface is pointing.

One example, is triangles, in the same smoothing group, in two opposite directions, based on the same points. So one triangle says "point faces that way" and other triangle says "point faces opposite way". Add these together, point doesn't face anywhere. Of course, triangles facing in opposite directions, based on the same points, need to be in their own smoothing groups, but LFS editor can't work that out, you have to do it manually.

Another example is extremely thin or tiny triangles. E.g. a triangle which is based on points that are in a line. Which direction does such a triangle face? Well that doesn't even make sense, geometrically it's just a line, although logically it has been specified as a triangle. That is a modelling error, but LFS editor cannot work out what you meant to do, or something like that. However, the new detection I added yesterday can help you find such thin triangles. Tip: sometimes use the "triangle buttons" to find the triangle referred to by the cyan line.

I am wondering if the tolerance for small/thin triangles need to be increased, to allow tiny ones. At the moment, the limit is down somewhere near 1 square millimeter which seems small enough to my mind, but apparently some models use a lot of such tiny triangles.

It looks as if the name isn't recognised as matching a server that is live at the moment (although it should). I'll ask Victor about that.

Last edited by Scawen, Thu, 30 Mar 2023 09:54.

Fixed now! Just in time for the event, so I hope the join button will work correctly!

Quote from Evolution_R :

I'm updating the seats of my MZG Sedan mod and I can't actually see what I'm doing (wrong) because of the spam of bad normals error messages.

I've tried eliminating that spam in Editor D16

It's not finished - I'd like to add a button to select the point or triangle that a message refers to.

Also maybe there should be a button to hide the vertical lines, in case there are a lot of them and they get in the way of fixing the problem.

These are fixed in Editor D16: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102626

Editor Test Patch D16:

Vehicle editor:

Spare wheel can now be offset laterally (set RIGHT value)
FIX: Save as SIT / STR name now limited to 7 characters
FIX: Dashboard texture can now be updated in a 2D view

Modeller:

Removed message spam about bad normals - instead a report is displayed at the top right in the modeller. This feature is not yet finished as I would like to add a button to help by selecting one of the offending points or triangles.

No, he's obviously a very experienced LFS driver and his rapid adaptation to the energy saving would have made him the winner of the second race, if it wasn't for the penalty he received! But he was a newcomer to the E-Challenge on Sunday. So that was very impressive.

I watched the races in the broadcast replay which was well informed and entertaining as ever.

Fun to see newcomer Alen Terzic's terrific speed in Race 1, seemingly unconcerned about energy conservation.

I loved Nico Puntola's tidy reverse driving (in correct track direction) after a spin in lap 3 before a controlled spin back to face the right way.

I'd like to congratulate all the participants who were part of the entertainment (including before I ever had a go) and thank all drivers throughout the field for the really respectful driving. And thanks for being kind to me too.

Dekojester has posted the Championship Standings

Reminder that I'd prefer not to receive off topic suggestions in this thread.

A few posts back: https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2042009#post2042009

Quote from ivancsx :

First one, I tried to change S_PLATE_ALP to different mode, from ALPHA TEST and TREE EDGE ALPHA, whenever I exit from modeller, it resets to ALPHA only, is this bug or what?

It's not really a bug, but an issue caused by a rare case of an ALPHA surface writing to the Z-buffer, which is necessary for the car windows, for reasons I won't describe in detail here (to stop painted lines on roads behind the car appearing in front of the windows - a strange effect). Transparency is always annoying to deal with, because of the necessity to draw transparent surfaces in the correct order. Sometimes perfect solutions aren't practical, so we need a compromise.

I don't think it's possible to get around it, I tried changing the draw order but I see that LFS moves the s_plate_alp textures to the end of the list. I think I did that to prevent the alpha numbers messing up the look of the windows.

I think it's best to accept the anomaly and not worry about it, as it will rarely be noticed.

Quote from ivancsx :

second and last, again, is this normal we cannot move or resize S_PLATE_ALP cutout? I have tried many times to resize it, but I just realized, whenever I drag the edge or center point on the cutout, it being reset to original place like what I've been screenshot it.

This is because each number plate texture has up to four number plates on it (shared between different players) so LFS automatically positions the cutout to the right place.

As far as I can understand, you shouldn't need to adjust the cutout because you can adjust the mapping instead.

No worries, the image you posted is a reminder that I need to make the notification less spammy.

I just found out that I can allow the spare wheel to be offset, with no compatibility issues. I hope to release an editor test patch today or tomorrow. I'll check your bug reports thread as well.

Quote from Evolution_R :

I'm updating the seats of my MZG Sedan mod and I can't actually see what I'm doing (wrong) because of the spam of bad normals error messages.

I can see that spam isn't helpful, but...

Quote from Evolution_R :

At first I wrote it as a joke, but as Aleksandr_124rus posted, merge by distance (0.0001 m) should fix them.

Code wise, I'm not sure how hard would that be - to add "fuse/merge by distance" option.

I'm sure you know, I did add the merge by distance option. Does it not help in this case?

OK, this is now fixed in Editor Test Patch D15.

The solutions:

1) Vehicle editor will not crash (in Textures tab or when creating car from model)
2) There is a message "Too many materials"
3) It will not export for testing or upload if there are too many materials

This must be the best way, as LFS itself will crash if there are too many materials. I believe there should be no need for so many materials, if you can share texture pages, etc.

Thanks for the crash report!

Quote from NoScOpE_LV :

Could we have that accidentaly u load main object u can shft+z witch

You can now "undo load main object" in Editor Test Patch D15
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102626-Editor-Test-Patch-0-7D15

[NOTE: This is the wrong thread for a modeller suggestion but these posts will be moved to cleanup thread after some time]

I like the idea of hiding subobjects and making that work like it does for triangles and points. I assume you would like the selection button and the visible model to disappear at once.

I also like the idea of merging subobjects. I think the key to this is to first allow multiple subobject selection, which could also be helpful when hiding objects or if you wanted to delete a few, move two subobjects together, etc.

(I like a lot of the other suggestions too but these seemed relevant to my point about multiple subobject object selection).

For now, I have added the often requested "named subobjects" in Test Patch D15, along with a vehicle editor crash fix.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102626

Editor Test Patch D15:

Modeller:

Ability to name subobjects (right click name or description)
You can now undo "load main object" (reverts to old object)

Vehicle editor:

FIX: Crash if vehicle mod had more than 64 materials
Mod with too many materials cannot be exported to test in LFS

I had fun, thanks!

I did hold it together for the first race so I'm happy with that. After a start grid incident I found myself at the back of the field in 16th position. I gradually worked up a bit to finish 9th. Related to energy saving, I managed to catch up and pass Zdravko Topolnjak near the end of the final lap, but ran out of energy on the final bend so he passed me again. This was quite exciting.

My second race was a bit out of control. I think I struggled with the extra power, which I had opted for in that race but as my car was faster than usual at the high speed bend, I think that was the cause of a few wall hits that made the car handle badly. Eventually when we could select dry tyres, I opted to fix the car which took a long time, only to immediately hit the same wall again! After another driver's incident caused a safety car I was allowed to pass the safety car and raced around the track to catch the back of the field. Lack of experience showed when I came across the slow moving cars on lap 19 and crashed right into the back of Jared Meade, knocking his car into the air. Sorry about that! That was again at the famous high speed corner. After the restart there wasn't long to go and on lap 20 I hit the armco at the high speed corner, this time knocked myself right out of the course and had to find my way back in to the circuit to finish the race. Is that legal?

So... that fast corner caused a lot of trouble for me but as I say, the first race felt in control and consequently more fun. I don't think I deserve any congratulations at all for the second race.

I would like to congratulate the other drivers, especially the top three: Gábor Gyüre, Imran Azhar and Niko Puntola though I have to say there were a lot of really good drivers there. It's amazing to see.

The replicas of the real tracks are so well done by Michal Málek, within the limits of the layout editor. The organisation and running the races by Master Race Car in conjunction with New Dimension Racing is incredibly professional. Finally the coverage by Sim Broadcasts is so well done and entertaining, what can I say but well done everyone, amazing job.

It's quite humbling to experience such fine work using this old simulator and I am extra inspired to get done what needs to be done, to bring the latest updates to you.

Nearly my finest moment:


Definitely not my finest moment:

Last edited by Scawen, Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:22.

Quote from akubosaan :

Editor crashes when clicking Texture tab (Vehicle Editor).
...
Exporting and selecting the car in-game would make LFS-game crashes as well.

I've had a look into this, found a possible reason for the crash and recreated a crash that matches your description.

It looks as if the code will fail (and crash, unpredictably) if there are more than 64 different materials in the model (when the subobjects are combined with the main model, which LFS does automatically).

I'll need to decide how to allow more materials, limit the number of materials, or both, as it is of course not acceptable for the program to crash.

Although I will do that, I must also say that I feel it's an excessive number of materials. Eric's most extremely detailed vehicle, the RB4, has reached 50 materials. Although I shouldn't be surprised that someone else's model exceeds 64 materials, as a programmer I feel this is too much for in game use and somehow you should reduce the number of materials. Maybe you can achieve the same results by either reducing the number of textures (e.g. by using cutouts on fewer, combined, texture pages) or reducing the number of different material settings in the 'cutout' mode?

I can't give any specific suggestions without seeing the model, but I have made a note to consider a fix/limit/warning/etc. Please let me know if the explanation makes sense (if I've described it properly and if you model really does have so many materials).

Last edited by Scawen, Sun, 26 Mar 2023 15:40.

Thanks, I've asked Victor about it. It's probably a text conversion thing. I think it's best to leave it as it is now, and Victor will let us know if you should change anything, or if he fixes it on his side.