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All gone to shit in Ukraina, what now?
(629 posts, started )
Quote from Racer X NZ :Paul Craig Roberts, an American, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments.

Just to keep you all happy.........

"Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have.
One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.
The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.
One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.
As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”
http://www.countercurrents.org/roberts200714.htm

IMPORTANT FACT: The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACT: There WERE Ukraine Migs in the area of the aircraft, ( Possible to shoot down Putins aircraft ) a simple check will determine what destroyed it (MH17)......

Another fact which is not reported by the 'Western Media', owned by who ?

This is a Russian source, again, I expect you to write it off as 'Propoganda", while your media is squeaky clean.....

Questions

1. The story of the Ukrainian Air Force fighter jets reportedly seen accompanying MH17, the fact that eye witnesses claim they heard shots before the explosion and the taking over of Air Traffic Control by unknown persons (2);

2. The rumors that President Putin was believed to be flying over the same route at the time: Malaysia Airlines confirms "A flight from a different carrier was on the same route at the time of the MH17 incident" (1). Sources who have asked not to be named have claimed that the Russian President's aircraft has very similar contours and coloring to MH17 and that both aircraft intersected at the same point and altitude at a similar time. It was 200 miles behind MH 17. In the event it did not fly over Ukraine, but the trajectory could have fooled those who wanted to murder President Putin. NATO?;

3. Kiev's wrath against anti-Kiev commander Bes, who operates precisely in the area of the downed jetliner and the video tape of a supposed conversation between him and subordinates, uploaded five hours after the crash but placing the time of the crash 35 minutes before it actually took place. The log of the video shows it was made on July 16, so one day before the incident took place (3);

4. The video of a recorded conversation between a Ukrainian military pilot and command flying in the area at the same time (3);

5. The question of the BUK-M1 9K37 (Gadfly/SA-11) Missile system, which is a sophisticated piece of weaponry. The BUK surface-to-air missile system was developed in 1979. It consists of a Target Acquisition Radar (TAR), a Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar (TELAR) and a Transporter Erector Launcher (TEL). It is not a hand-held or shoulder-launched missile one can buy for 50,000 USD from any arms dealer. It is a sophisticated piece of equipment used by States.

If the anti-Kiev forces did use such a system, then those who use a BUK-M1 know how to differentiate between a military aircraft and a civilian one. A trigger-happy pilot might not.

6. The South-Eastern anti-Kiev forces have stated categorically that their own missile systems do not operate above 10,000 feet, much less at over 30,000 feet.
http://english.pravda.ru/opini ... 2014/128094-nato_putin-0/

I've already posted about why the US would want this, plus the fact they've planned to do this in the past. Plus how this will advance US objectives in the region. Why would Russia, what do they gain ?



Well, that's just dandy, so you support the cannon fodder. To quote George Carlin; "I do this real moron thing, it's called thinking, and I'm not a very good Amercian because I like to form my own opionions.” "Most Americans just roll over on command"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDw-zFFhFgc

Does saying erector a lot give you an erection?
You can tell the Nato has propaganda of some sort with Western media when they have been claiming since day 1 that Russia or Pro-Russia supporters are the reason for this, despite the fact there has been no factual evidence that is was them or Ukraine, and the crash hasn't even been investigated.

Ukraine them selves have the exact weopon used that destroyed the plane yet it's completely ruled out.

I Honestly doubt we will ever get the truth from this or we will but it will conflict with the opposings sides view.
Quote from Bmxtwins :Does saying erector a lot give you an erection?

Well, that seems to accurately sum up American intelligent thought on this subject.

Thank you for your informed input........

This is Robert Parry (Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s.)
i.e. a serious journalist.

"In the heat of the U.S. media’s latest war hysteria – rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin – there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere – with key questions not being asked or answered.

The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose?

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said."
http://consortiumnews.com/2014 ... atellites-see-in-ukraine/

And do pay attention to my sources, Paul Craig Roberts, Robert Parry are informed American reporters/commentators with a proven track record of being right about subjects.
Their views however often disagree with the propoganda produced by the media that your expected to believe. Quite successfully apparently.

Do try thinking, who gains from this ?

Who has planned to shoot down airliners to create a reason for a war ?

Russia is trying hard to keep out of the Ukraine, alternative media has been full of stories asking why Russia doesn't get involved, citing the current genocide the Ukraine govt is carrying out.

The rebels shoot down low flying aircraft, nothing at that hight. They only have systems that will do that.
The Ukraine Military has had the Bok anti aircraft systems for years.
They had just such a system in that area.

Turn on your brains, this is yet another (Poorly executed) False Flag blaming Russia. (Poor) audio recordings made the day before (Legally, proving intent), the media rushing to claim 'It was Russia' with no actual proof, a collection of citizens who believe the lies.

For our US readers, I'll just leave this, (USA !,USA !,USA !,USA !)
That should keep your easily satisfied minds happy.
Russia is doing the same shit what they are doing for decades already, making a mess of Afghanistan, Latvia, Chechnya, Georgia and now the Ukraine. If you want to have an opinion about this you have to start with learning Europian history and not sitting somewhere abroad trying to criticize stuff which you don't have a clue about. This is not comparable to Iraq and WOMD.

Here are really Russian activists busy (former KGB) to try to stir up a neighbor country. Like always Russia can't just invade because it would cause another major international incident like it did with the Krim region so it tries to create chaos and then eventually say; 'OK its enough' we 'go in'. There was large military troops activity from Russia one or two months back at the border of the Ukraine not without a reason.

Russian ex communists are afraid of getting NATO even more at its doorstep what already happened with Latvia. Now with the downing of this airplane which was an obvious mistake by these Russians their actions massively backfires and had to vote in favor of an UN agreement yesterday.

The Ukrainian government has zero reason to operate ground to air missiles like discussed in my latest Youtube link and they don't have the control in the Donetsk region anyway so its impossible to launch anything from there except when you are Russian.

But I think this matter can be discussed forever with people which think everything is set up, scammed, propagated and.. I will not be surprised if at some point alienated. If the truth is not out there then it must be aliens.
That's cool dude.
If your so set in your opinion that any level of fact won't change your mind then your clearly a perfect citizen.

Most of us review, analyse, come to informed desicions that can be changed based on facts.

But you, once you make your mind up on a subject facts and information are meaningless.

So, how's the Flat Earth society going these days ?

And, if your so confident.... Facts please.
That doesn't involve proven fake audio and vague accusations.

I post a great deal of proven fact, it would be great if you could support your opinions with something approaching this level of evidence supporting your allegations.
Or is just, the media said so, and the media would never lie ?

I'd really love to see some proof supporting your allegations please.
What facts on this incident have you provided? You keep calling on past history... Anyways I agree with Dave on the past history bit, I already made that point.
#333 - CSF
Quote from Mustafur :You can tell the Nato has propaganda of some sort with Western media when they have been claiming since day 1 that Russia or Pro-Russia supporters are the reason for this, despite the fact there has been no factual evidence that is was them or Ukraine, and the crash hasn't even been investigated.

Ukraine them selves have the exact weopon used that destroyed the plane yet it's completely ruled out.

I Honestly doubt we will ever get the truth from this or we will but it will conflict with the opposings sides view.

Except they admitted it, then realized what they had really done, and quickly retracted their statement and suddenly it wasn't them. Funny that.

Since then they have done everything in their power to disrupt the evidence and the evidence gathering process. That isn't the Ukraine doing that, it's Putin's people's army.
Quote from Racer X NZ :your clearly a perfect citizen.

Me? Hahaha... Maybe in twenty years.


Quote from Racer X NZ :
And, if your so confident.... Facts please.
That doesn't involve proven fake audio and vague accusations.

No sorry, eats too much time, maybe when you start to learn speak Dutch. It's out of your league anyway. You don't have to deal with Russians, or East Europeans with a Russian flavor. It's better that this scum stay at home and shoot their own air planes out of the sky. So I am perfectly fine with the sanctions against Russia getting massively tightened. And now that the body's cannot be used anymore as some freaking ransom, cold war version II can finally start.

Or Putin has to leave, he started this whole thing. But he won't cause dictator.
Quote from Racer X NZ :And, if your so confident.... Facts please.
That doesn't involve proven fake audio and vague accusations.

Audio, video or text that proves whatever you (you as in you, Racer X) want: "Here, this is them truth, undeniable and legit."

Audio, video or text that goes against whatever you (you as in you, Racer X) want: "Don't you see its fake sheeples, how can you be so blind/deaf/dumb."

:rolleyes:

go here, stay there, and stop spamming your shít here

my oppinion: Accidental shot down from separatists site, maybe aided by russian agents/soldiers (as in "push this button to fire BUK", not as in "now shoot civilian aircraft")
Does anyone even read Racer X's copy/pastes anymore? Why he thinks this forum is his best soapbox for uncovering the corrupt elite's dastardly deeds is beyond me. Nothing personal but it's all the same all the time.
"The yanks did it. Your (sic) sheep!"
Cue the responses and then more aggressive retaliations from Racer X, and eventually we end up at 9/11 or the moon landings or some b.s.
@Racer X:
You realize that about half of your "proofs" of a Ukrainian coverup have already been conclusively disproven, even in this very thread?

Quote from ACCAkut :
my oppinion: Accidental shot down from separatists site, maybe aided by russian agents/soldiers (as in "push this button to fire BUK", not as in "now shoot civilian aircraft")

This is my theory as well. I assume that basic operation of the missile complex is not all that difficult (YouTube even has some videos with a simulator of S-75 and S-125 launchers). It is only at real wartime when there are multiple targets, enemy airplanes with antiradar missiles and strong ECM conditions when you have only seconds to find, identify and fire on the target. This is when you need a well trained, professional and experienced crew. The crew that manned the launcher that (probably) shot down MH17 was in no imminent danger and hitting one of the largest passenger jets ever to fly is not exactly a paramount of combat skills... This is why I have no problem believing that the Russians could have given the separatists some "How to shoot a plane down with Buk M1" crash course not realizing they would make such a terrible mistake.
Quote from sinbad :Does anyone even read Racer X's copy/pastes anymore?

I have him on ignore for a long time, but when people quote his stuff I can't stop it but read (and feel the urge to slam his head into his keyboard, but that's another matter :gnasher: )
Quote from ACCAkut :Audio, video or text that proves whatever you (you as in you, Racer X) want: "Here, this is them truth, undeniable and legit."

Audio, video or text that goes against whatever you (you as in you, Racer X) want: "Don't you see its fake sheeples, how can you be so blind/deaf/dumb."

:rolleyes:

go here, stay there, and stop spamming your shít here

my oppinion: Accidental shot down from separatists site, maybe aided by russian agents/soldiers (as in "push this button to fire BUK", not as in "now shoot civilian aircraft")

+1,

I was tempted to write an answer to some....emm...."highly doubtful theories" posted here, but every time I stopped myself because I'd be certainly banned for insults and swearing...and these persons still would stay on their own mind.

In other words, its a pointless discussion. Thats why I try to stay out of such discussions.

I'll drop some info: It happened to be, that my office is near the road which is the shortest route from airport to Central Hospital. Ambulances are flying by every hour, nonstop for the last two months. Even at night, 4-5 ambulances at a time.

Think what you want, more than 700+ people (298 from the MH17 and 400+ of official army casualties) won't care anymore.
Quote from Racer X NZ :(Poor) audio recordings made the day before (Legally, proving intent)

Source? Didn't you see my post on the subject of the 'incorrect' timestamp on the video? Or did you see it and choose to ignore it (possibly because I'm obviously a CIA plant who's here to try and brainwash people into accepting the almighty US and A as their personal saviour)?
Quote from Lotesdelere :http://www.euronews.com/2014/0 ... se-to-malaysian-airliner/

CNN - quoting Russian sources - says that the Ukrainian jet in question was an Su-25, Soviet version of A-10. Su-25 has max ceiling of about 7 km (without any payload) and a top speed of ~980 kph. If it was there, it is VERY unlikely that it flew outside the war zone, let alone engaged MH17. Its presence could have confused Buk's radar operator but that's about it.

Quote from amp88 :Source? Didn't you see my post on the subject of the 'incorrect' timestamp on the video? Or did you see it and choose to ignore it (possibly because I'm obviously a CIA plant who's here to try and brainwash people into accepting the almighty US and A as their personal saviour)?

As much as Racer X accuses us of ignoring evidence of conspiracy he ignores evidence that disproves his nutcase theories. BTW, a very thorough analysis of the "Creation time" glitch can be found here: https://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15
Quote from http://yle.fi/uutiset/daily_reports_ukraine_missile_shipment_from_vietnam/7365197 :A shipment of missile components bound for Ukraine and intercepted by Finnish customs originated in Vietnam, reports the daily Helsingin Sanomat.

Not a day (1½ maybe) Moscow responses in rebuttance
Quote from http://yle.fi/uutiset/russia_demands_investigation_into_claims_finns_joined_fighting_in_ukraine/7368805 :The Russian foreign ministry has called on Finland to look into claims published in an Italian newspaper that Finnish citizens are among those who have joined an extreme-right armed group to fight alongside the government in east Ukraine.

Propaganda much?
http://imgur.com/wS3ZTwf
There you go, conclusive proof.

Lets now go to the US State Department. I'll give you a chance to clean up after wetting yourselves at me using them as a source.

There, better now ?

"The Tuesday briefing seemed to be a sharp departure from comments made by US President Barack Obama a day prior, who stated that the Malaysia Airlines aircraft had been “shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists” that had been both armed with anti-aircraft weapons and trained by Russia.
Officials noted that their inquiry relied partly on social media postings, citing specifically video of a missile launcher purported to be a Buk system battery crossing into Russian territory, and appearing to be missing a missile. Following questions, intel officials admitted they had not verified the video’s origin or content."
http://rt.com/usa/174796-intel ... e-malaysia-plane-mh17-us/

Here's the briefing, in full. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok

An actual journalist (AP reporter Matt Lee) dared to question the State Department over their evidence.

"Despite the State Department’s insistence that YouTube clips and social media posts can be considered as hard evidence, even the veracity of that material has attracted intense skepticism."

"Video of a Buk missile launcher apparently crossing the border back to Russia after the plane was shot down which was cited by Kiev and Washington has also since been debunked. The clip is actually shot in the Ukrainian of town of Krasnoarmeisk, which has been controlled by Kiev since May.
According to audio experts who conducted a forensic analysis, a YouTube video of a conversation between a separatist leader and a Russian military commander which purported to show rebels accepting responsibility for shooting down the airliner is in fact a fabrication."
http://rinf.com/alt-news/usa-n ... clips-social-media-posts/

But, I fully accept that your crazy conspiracy theories based on Youtube video's and Social Media posts make far more sense than any factual investigation.

I think that the US State Department summed up your opinions perfectly.

Harf asserts that any version of events that challenges the State Department’s version (based again on social media posts) is “illogical.”

Because they never lie, Oh, except over Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, Syria....... BUT, apart from that............
@ dfgjkl

Can you find out perhaps from which date this article is? When is it written/publiced?

http://www.utro.ru/articles/2008/12/26/789711.shtml

My Russian aint that good

Thanks!

Quote from Racer X NZ :
Because they never lie, Oh, except over Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria....... But apart from that............

Lol... I find it hard to believe that there is any government that lied more to its own people and the rest of the world than the us's government. Most recent that is completely factual is Syria. Really I can't understand people not seeing that the usa is provoking war over all the happenings during the last years.
Appears to, this has been going on for years so it's not a surprise that the obvious has been pointed out before.

"Ukraine will remain for the United States deterrent Russia, agrees Ukrainian political analyst Andrei Yermolaev. According to him, Ukraine for American policy has been and remains instrumental object that is used in a rather cynical strategies.
Most "visionary" already hard rehearsing for the upcoming bout Crimea: from the opera - held recently in Kiev command post exercise on "Actions volunteer units on the Crimean theater of operations after the Russian military aggression." Organizers merrymaking (National Salvation Committee, which includes the party "Brotherhood" and "New Force" and association "Northern Brotherhood") argue that the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, which will be held no later than 2011, the entire burden of resistance will be on voluntary organizations. Scenario Campaign General Staff of the Armed Forces has already been developed, sure "roleplayers".

Discuss on blogs Discuss
Permanent address:
http://www.utro.ru/articles/2008/12/26/789711.shtml..."

Google translate is a bit dodgy but the gist is pretty clear. And well documented from a range of sources.

Global Research on this topic.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/u ... -proxy-government/5373073

The Right Sector are the militia and the Svoboda is the sort of civilian arm of that militia. They operate in tandem and they glorify a major figure of World War II, Bandera. It’s the hero. Bandera happened to be a Nazi collaborator during World War II. He was, in fact, very much instrumental in sending something like 900,000 Jews to the death camps, according to data and mortalities. So there was a certain section of these Neo-Nazi groups who were, in fact, collaborators of the Nazis during World War II and essentially what is now ongoing is that that particular formation of Neo-Nazis, which pledged their support to the Nazis of World War II, they are involved in atrocities and they are also leading the protest movements.

Now, why is this important? Because the Neo-Nazi supporters of Stepan Bandera, the hero of World War II who was a collaborator with the Third Reich, these people are now mingling with representatives from the European Union and from the United States. So you have Neo-Nazi Svoboda Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok who meets up with US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. Now, we know about Victoria Nuland who said some bad things against the European Union, the EU, and we also know that the issue of regime change was contemplated at the policy level and in the State Department with the intelligence community and so on.
Yes, I hope that the Russian guy can clearly find out from which date this is.
26 December 2008 .. That wasnt that hard, the article starts with that date and its embedded in the url. And now what?
Be good to get a real translation of this.

And may I take a moment to remind people how the Nazi's started WW part 2

The Gleiwitz incident (German: Überfall auf den Sender Gleiwitz; Polish: Prowokacja gliwicka) was a false flag operation by Nazi forces posing as Poles on 31 August 1939, against the German radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, Germany (since 1945: Gliwice, Poland) on the eve of World War II in Europe. The goal was to use the staged attack as a pretext on the basis of which to invade Poland.

This provocation was the best-known of several actions in Operation Himmler, a series of unconventional operations undertaken by the SS in order to serve specific propaganda goals of Nazi Germany at the outbreak of the war. It was intended to create the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany in order to justify the subsequent invasion of Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

At the time, any questioning of this would be a 'LOONY CONSPIRACY THEORY'
That, and probably got you shot as a 'Traitor to the Fatherland'
https://www.youtube.com/watch? ... hw-A&bpctr=1406094588
As so many of you seem to embrace this attitude.

All gone to shit in Ukraina, what now?
(629 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG