You can tell the Nato has propaganda of some sort with Western media when they have been claiming since day 1 that Russia or Pro-Russia supporters are the reason for this, despite the fact there has been no factual evidence that is was them or Ukraine, and the crash hasn't even been investigated.
Ukraine them selves have the exact weopon used that destroyed the plane yet it's completely ruled out.
I Honestly doubt we will ever get the truth from this or we will but it will conflict with the opposings sides view.
Well, that seems to accurately sum up American intelligent thought on this subject.
Thank you for your informed input........
This is Robert Parry (Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s.)
i.e. a serious journalist.
"In the heat of the U.S. media’s latest war hysteria – rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin – there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere – with key questions not being asked or answered.
The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.
So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose?
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said." http://consortiumnews.com/2014 ... atellites-see-in-ukraine/
And do pay attention to my sources, Paul Craig Roberts, Robert Parry are informed American reporters/commentators with a proven track record of being right about subjects.
Their views however often disagree with the propoganda produced by the media that your expected to believe. Quite successfully apparently.
Do try thinking, who gains from this ?
Who has planned to shoot down airliners to create a reason for a war ?
Russia is trying hard to keep out of the Ukraine, alternative media has been full of stories asking why Russia doesn't get involved, citing the current genocide the Ukraine govt is carrying out.
The rebels shoot down low flying aircraft, nothing at that hight. They only have systems that will do that.
The Ukraine Military has had the Bok anti aircraft systems for years.
They had just such a system in that area.
Turn on your brains, this is yet another (Poorly executed) False Flag blaming Russia. (Poor) audio recordings made the day before (Legally, proving intent), the media rushing to claim 'It was Russia' with no actual proof, a collection of citizens who believe the lies.
For our US readers, I'll just leave this, (USA !,USA !,USA !,USA !)
That should keep your easily satisfied minds happy.
Russia is doing the same shit what they are doing for decades already, making a mess of Afghanistan, Latvia, Chechnya, Georgia and now the Ukraine. If you want to have an opinion about this you have to start with learning Europian history and not sitting somewhere abroad trying to criticize stuff which you don't have a clue about. This is not comparable to Iraq and WOMD.
Here are really Russian activists busy (former KGB) to try to stir up a neighbor country. Like always Russia can't just invade because it would cause another major international incident like it did with the Krim region so it tries to create chaos and then eventually say; 'OK its enough' we 'go in'. There was large military troops activity from Russia one or two months back at the border of the Ukraine not without a reason.
Russian ex communists are afraid of getting NATO even more at its doorstep what already happened with Latvia. Now with the downing of this airplane which was an obvious mistake by these Russians their actions massively backfires and had to vote in favor of an UN agreement yesterday.
The Ukrainian government has zero reason to operate ground to air missiles like discussed in my latest Youtube link and they don't have the control in the Donetsk region anyway so its impossible to launch anything from there except when you are Russian.
But I think this matter can be discussed forever with people which think everything is set up, scammed, propagated and.. I will not be surprised if at some point alienated. If the truth is not out there then it must be aliens.
That's cool dude.
If your so set in your opinion that any level of fact won't change your mind then your clearly a perfect citizen.
Most of us review, analyse, come to informed desicions that can be changed based on facts.
But you, once you make your mind up on a subject facts and information are meaningless.
So, how's the Flat Earth society going these days ?
And, if your so confident.... Facts please.
That doesn't involve proven fake audio and vague accusations.
I post a great deal of proven fact, it would be great if you could support your opinions with something approaching this level of evidence supporting your allegations.
Or is just, the media said so, and the media would never lie ?
I'd really love to see some proof supporting your allegations please.
No sorry, eats too much time, maybe when you start to learn speak Dutch. It's out of your league anyway. You don't have to deal with Russians, or East Europeans with a Russian flavor. It's better that this scum stay at home and shoot their own air planes out of the sky. So I am perfectly fine with the sanctions against Russia getting massively tightened. And now that the body's cannot be used anymore as some freaking ransom, cold war version II can finally start.
Or Putin has to leave, he started this whole thing. But he won't cause dictator.
Does anyone even read Racer X's copy/pastes anymore? Why he thinks this forum is his best soapbox for uncovering the corrupt elite's dastardly deeds is beyond me. Nothing personal but it's all the same all the time.
"The yanks did it. Your (sic) sheep!"
Cue the responses and then more aggressive retaliations from Racer X, and eventually we end up at 9/11 or the moon landings or some b.s.
You realize that about half of your "proofs" of a Ukrainian coverup have already been conclusively disproven, even in this very thread?
This is my theory as well. I assume that basic operation of the missile complex is not all that difficult (YouTube even has some videos with a simulator of S-75 and S-125 launchers). It is only at real wartime when there are multiple targets, enemy airplanes with antiradar missiles and strong ECM conditions when you have only seconds to find, identify and fire on the target. This is when you need a well trained, professional and experienced crew. The crew that manned the launcher that (probably) shot down MH17 was in no imminent danger and hitting one of the largest passenger jets ever to fly is not exactly a paramount of combat skills... This is why I have no problem believing that the Russians could have given the separatists some "How to shoot a plane down with Buk M1" crash course not realizing they would make such a terrible mistake.
I was tempted to write an answer to some....emm...."highly doubtful theories" posted here, but every time I stopped myself because I'd be certainly banned for insults and swearing...and these persons still would stay on their own mind.
In other words, its a pointless discussion. Thats why I try to stay out of such discussions.
I'll drop some info: It happened to be, that my office is near the road which is the shortest route from airport to Central Hospital. Ambulances are flying by every hour, nonstop for the last two months. Even at night, 4-5 ambulances at a time.
Think what you want, more than 700+ people (298 from the MH17 and 400+ of official army casualties) won't care anymore.
Source? Didn't you see my post on the subject of the 'incorrect' timestamp on the video? Or did you see it and choose to ignore it (possibly because I'm obviously a CIA plant who's here to try and brainwash people into accepting the almighty US and A as their personal saviour)?
CNN - quoting Russian sources - says that the Ukrainian jet in question was an Su-25, Soviet version of A-10. Su-25 has max ceiling of about 7 km (without any payload) and a top speed of ~980 kph. If it was there, it is VERY unlikely that it flew outside the war zone, let alone engaged MH17. Its presence could have confused Buk's radar operator but that's about it.
Lets now go to the US State Department. I'll give you a chance to clean up after wetting yourselves at me using them as a source.
There, better now ?
"The Tuesday briefing seemed to be a sharp departure from comments made by US President Barack Obama a day prior, who stated that the Malaysia Airlines aircraft had been “shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists” that had been both armed with anti-aircraft weapons and trained by Russia.
Officials noted that their inquiry relied partly on social media postings, citing specifically video of a missile launcher purported to be a Buk system battery crossing into Russian territory, and appearing to be missing a missile. Following questions, intel officials admitted they had not verified the video’s origin or content." http://rt.com/usa/174796-intel ... e-malaysia-plane-mh17-us/
An actual journalist (AP reporter Matt Lee) dared to question the State Department over their evidence.
"Despite the State Department’s insistence that YouTube clips and social media posts can be considered as hard evidence, even the veracity of that material has attracted intense skepticism."
"Video of a Buk missile launcher apparently crossing the border back to Russia after the plane was shot down which was cited by Kiev and Washington has also since been debunked. The clip is actually shot in the Ukrainian of town of Krasnoarmeisk, which has been controlled by Kiev since May.
According to audio experts who conducted a forensic analysis, a YouTube video of a conversation between a separatist leader and a Russian military commander which purported to show rebels accepting responsibility for shooting down the airliner is in fact a fabrication." http://rinf.com/alt-news/usa-n ... clips-social-media-posts/
But, I fully accept that your crazy conspiracy theories based on Youtube video's and Social Media posts make far more sense than any factual investigation.
I think that the US State Department summed up your opinions perfectly.
Harf asserts that any version of events that challenges the State Department’s version (based again on social media posts) is “illogical.”
Because they never lie, Oh, except over Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, Syria....... BUT, apart from that............
Lol... I find it hard to believe that there is any government that lied more to its own people and the rest of the world than the us's government. Most recent that is completely factual is Syria. Really I can't understand people not seeing that the usa is provoking war over all the happenings during the last years.
Appears to, this has been going on for years so it's not a surprise that the obvious has been pointed out before.
"Ukraine will remain for the United States deterrent Russia, agrees Ukrainian political analyst Andrei Yermolaev. According to him, Ukraine for American policy has been and remains instrumental object that is used in a rather cynical strategies.
Most "visionary" already hard rehearsing for the upcoming bout Crimea: from the opera - held recently in Kiev command post exercise on "Actions volunteer units on the Crimean theater of operations after the Russian military aggression." Organizers merrymaking (National Salvation Committee, which includes the party "Brotherhood" and "New Force" and association "Northern Brotherhood") argue that the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, which will be held no later than 2011, the entire burden of resistance will be on voluntary organizations. Scenario Campaign General Staff of the Armed Forces has already been developed, sure "roleplayers".
The Right Sector are the militia and the Svoboda is the sort of civilian arm of that militia. They operate in tandem and they glorify a major figure of World War II, Bandera. It’s the hero. Bandera happened to be a Nazi collaborator during World War II. He was, in fact, very much instrumental in sending something like 900,000 Jews to the death camps, according to data and mortalities. So there was a certain section of these Neo-Nazi groups who were, in fact, collaborators of the Nazis during World War II and essentially what is now ongoing is that that particular formation of Neo-Nazis, which pledged their support to the Nazis of World War II, they are involved in atrocities and they are also leading the protest movements.
Now, why is this important? Because the Neo-Nazi supporters of Stepan Bandera, the hero of World War II who was a collaborator with the Third Reich, these people are now mingling with representatives from the European Union and from the United States. So you have Neo-Nazi Svoboda Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok who meets up with US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. Now, we know about Victoria Nuland who said some bad things against the European Union, the EU, and we also know that the issue of regime change was contemplated at the policy level and in the State Department with the intelligence community and so on.
And may I take a moment to remind people how the Nazi's started WW part 2
The Gleiwitz incident (German: Überfall auf den Sender Gleiwitz; Polish: Prowokacja gliwicka) was a false flag operation by Nazi forces posing as Poles on 31 August 1939, against the German radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, Germany (since 1945: Gliwice, Poland) on the eve of World War II in Europe. The goal was to use the staged attack as a pretext on the basis of which to invade Poland.
This provocation was the best-known of several actions in Operation Himmler, a series of unconventional operations undertaken by the SS in order to serve specific propaganda goals of Nazi Germany at the outbreak of the war. It was intended to create the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany in order to justify the subsequent invasion of Poland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident