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All gone to shit in Ukraina, what now?
(629 posts, started )
Quote from mike1158 :" STUFF"
World bank funding might allay the fears Russia has about removal of the buffer zone.

First, "STUFF", what your saying is interesting and could you please post some supporting documentation for what your saying as I've been following this closely and you've brought up information that I'm completely unaware of.

Secondly, World Bank Funding, why would Russia want that ?, see my posts on how the IMF funding to the Ukraine has simply sold off their agriculture and sold the people into debt for (n) years so Kiev can buy weapons systems to fight and kill the people of Ukraine who don't agree with Kiev's US driven agenda.

Why has the new Greek Govt not only said no to further 'bailouts' but is also talking to BRIC states about alternatives to the Western system ?.

The problem, and the solution to the problem, is very simple. Here is the German Governments opinion, as reported in De Spiegel on 6 March 2015. (Yes, German media propoganda, it pays to be aware of what every state's opinion is if you want to come up with a balanced view.!)

"........ German leaders in Berlin were stunned. They didn't understand what Breedlove was talking about. And it wasn't the first time. Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR).

The pattern has become a familiar one. For months, Breedlove has been commenting on Russian activities in eastern Ukraine, speaking of troop advances on the border, the amassing of munitions and alleged columns of Russian tanks. Over and over again, Breedlove's numbers have been significantly higher than those in the possession of America's NATO allies in Europe. As such, he is playing directly into the hands of the hardliners in the US Congress and in NATO.

The German government is alarmed. Are the Americans trying to thwart European efforts at mediation led by Chancellor Angela Merkel? Sources in the Chancellery have referred to Breedlove's comments as "dangerous propaganda." Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even found it necessary recently to bring up Breedlove's comments with NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-concerned-about-aggressive-nato-stance-on-ukraine-a-1022193.html

See my earlier post about US/UK media propaganda to explain the limited knowledge most US/UK (5 Eyes*) people have on this situation.
* (Game on)
Quote from danielroelofs :Time for some intelligence in politics is something I support.

But for the other part, I have to disagree. The honestly elected Ukranian president wanted to connect more with Russia instead of Europe especially when it comes to natural resources. Now what is the usa after for a long time now? Oil and natural resources. The western media destroys country after country by media that is rich in natural resources, remember Venezuela?

There is nothing to destroy in Venezuela. They have gasoline cheaper than water and they can't feed themselves.
This country with enormously vast grazing lands has to import meat from Argentina, milk from Switzerland, chickens from other countries.
Which btw. you can't buy in normally in the shop - there is long queue for it.

Quote from danielroelofs :Thanks Germany and other European countries, for now saying what so many already knew. Stating that usa tried to create an enemy of Russia, and calling it literally "Dangerous propoganda"! Also something many already knew.

One example they mention is how usa lied about russia (not sure if they mean separists) building up troops while German intelligence ( no doubt at least more reliable because they have less interest or possibly non, because of the close economic ties with Russia) and other European intelligence noticed separists/Russia kept their word with the sease fire!

Riiiiight...
They kept cease fire with exception of: Debaltsevo and Mariupol.
Debaltsevo is now completely ruined.
btw. There was a joke on that in Poland:
"Medvedev to Putin: Just three of such cease fire treaties and we will be at Poland's border"



btw. Please don't link Dutch sources as not many can understand the langauge.
However, Dutch should understand this situation - the difference between Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine and Serbs in Bosnia is negligible.

Quote from mike1158 :The real reason for all of the carp going on seems to be the same old fear that has always led Soviet and now Russian geopolitics, fear.
Ukraine had a long standing desire to align with Europe rather than Russia and it is as simple and complicated as that. Where have the most debilitating invasions come from? The west.

What???
Russia occupyies foreign countries since 1780s. I don't think they come from west.
Sorry to say Andrand, but if you think the west is mr. nice guy compared to Russia, you clearly don't know your history.

About the intelligence story, see Racer X's post above yours. He present you with an english source and explains it again in better detail. Many Dutchies do understand the situation and many are seeing that Russia can't be the agressor in this situation, I think if you would interview ppl on the street from young to old about 70% would say this cant be Russia. Problem is that not many ppl dare to say what they really think and rather go along with the 'safest' story. Online news articles that talk rubbish and completely nonsense about Russia, get about 200 reactions of which probably 95% of the people saying its bullshit. They also have quite good arguments.

I mean.. country or world politics are always somewhat nasty. But since the general's public opinion and support is very important, there is a huge interest to mislead the public. Think for a second who has to step into his fighter jet and risk his life. Politics is about interests and when you get that picture straight.. and starting to see real interests, it makes it easier often to make up your mind.

I think it's quite fair to say.. that for a nation as Russia, that walks over Europe like it has never existed, it's hardly ever started a war. And don't come with Georgia.. cause yes that was Georgia starting it.

Look it up... usa has invaded 55 countries or overthrown governments since w.o. II. Still many are reluctant to see the true agressor.
Racer X, where did I say Russia would want world bank funding? The Ukraine is after joining the EU so it can get better access to funding to improve the country. Russia is not in need of help from anyone now.

The rest of what you called 'Stuff' is well known and in the public arena. What are you a closet communist from the Stalin era?

The German government is 'alarmed' but not by the US actions, rather that the current Russian isolationist policy is likely to be a threat to peace and being where they are, Germany is in the fallout zone. Like most of mainland Europe.
Quote from danielroelofs :Sorry to say Andrand, but if you think the west is mr. nice guy compared to Russia, you clearly don't know your history.

I don't bother who the "nice" or "nasty" guy is.
I bother about rules, system and type of organization they provide.
Look at "Inevitable picture" thread https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1883323#post1883323 here you can see the outcomes of absurdity they provide (on systemic level - organization is so absurd that they make such funny workarounds). Do you really want to stand up for this?
Quote :I think it's quite fair to say.. that for a nation as Russia, that walks over Europe like it has never existed, it's hardly ever started a war. And don't come with Georgia.. cause yes that was Georgia starting it.

Yes, right, just as Ukraine, they started the war with Russia (or Russia powered troops) on their own territory... riiight...
Quote :Look it up... usa has invaded 55 countries or overthrown governments since w.o. II. Still many are reluctant to see the true agressor.

Aaaah... I see - if Ukraine will stop Russia with help of west countries it would be an act of aggression?
Mind you - Russia will stop where it would be stopped, as Russia has borders with whoever they wish.
Quote from mike1158 :Racer X, where did I say Russia would want world bank funding?

OOOHHHHH, I know the answer ! It was in the part of your post I quoted !

Regarding the rest of your post, no, actually it isn't "well known and in the public arena." So if you could post some supporting documentation that would be really appreciated.

And regarding the rest of that paragraph "What are you a closet communist from the Stalin era?", LOL, maybe you could try some research on that point !!!!!
Quote from Racer X NZ :Yet another quote SmileGo Team America

You're actually sounding a touch trollish here, if you've been here since 2005, 10 years, then you should be a bit better informed Smile
See above.

Your comments regarding the German govts opinion is actually reflected in a very recent Reuters article that makes the same claims but misses completely when it came to facts.

FYI, De Spiegel is the voice of the German govt, Reuters (US Edition) isn't.
Actually it was NOT in the thread I posted but I am going to ignore anything you post because you are boring now with your pro Russian and anti fact stance. Go play with somewhere else for a while, preferably where they are ignorant of the facts.
Quote from mike1158 :Actually it was NOT in the thread I posted but I am going to ignore anything you post because you are boring now with your pro Russian and anti fact stance. Go play with somewhere else for a while, preferably where they are ignorant of the facts.

your credibility meter just dropped to zero with this closed minded demonstration, and now your are worst than him, be proud of yourself!

there is no exact and one fact in this political war, USA or Russia have their own good reason to defend their position.

my english is very limited so I won't discuss more about complex subject.
This is an accurate assesment of the current situation for Europe,

"Which brings us to the underlying issue in Ukraine: Russia’s strategy is strictly defensive. Putin’s goal is to maintain a neutral buffer zone between the Russian core and the advance of NATO. For reasons even our hawkiest Russia-haters may understand, if not acknowledge, he doesn’t want to see NATO’s armies poised a few hundred kilometers from Moscow.

Washington’s strategy, on the other hand, is militantly offensive: the goal is to go after the Russians by encircling them and inching ever closer to the heartland. Caught in the middle are the Europeans, who revel in their dream of a continent united and at peace – and are being rudely contradicted by the warlords of Washington, who insist it’s all a pipedream.

The Europeans, however, have only themselves to blame: the Lisbon Treaty, which established an inextricable link between NATO and EU membership, ties them to America’s apron strings. The EU, in short, is not an independent political-military entity, but one inherently dependent on the "Atlanticist" connection, i.e. it owes fealty to Washington. The Germans are stuck with Breedlove, and Nuland, whether they like it or not."
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/03/08/f-k-the-eu-revisited/

"The Germans, however, are waking up to the reality of Washington’s domination – because they, after all, will be in the free-fire zone if and when an actual shooting war erupts between Russia and the US. That they will be happy to be America’s pawns in such a deadly game is rather doubtful. If the Strobe Talbotts of this world insist on a new cold war, then we will see a revival of Euro-neutralism – and that’s a good thing. Perhaps the time for a true European declaration of independence is not far – a circumstance in which case Nuland’s "F—k the EU" will take on new meaning."
I wonder how many treaties Russians have to break so RacerX will say - OK, someone is breaking treaties.
There was treaty that guaranteed Ukraine's national security.
There was treaty on heavy arms withdrawal.

I don't know if you know that game when someone kicks you in the butt and you have to guess who. Well, I think you wouldn't even admit you were kicked in the ass.
Quote from AndRand :I wonder how many treaties Russians have to break so RacerX will say - OK, someone is breaking treaties.
There was treaty that guaranteed Ukraine's national security.
There was treaty on heavy arms withdrawal.

I don't know if you know that game when someone kicks you in the butt and you have to guess who. Well, I think you wouldn't even admit you were kicked in the ass.

I thought that your post displayed a lack of knowledge regarding the points you claimed so I thought some actual facts may provide clarification and information that you seem to be unaware of. Smile

1) - "There was treaty that guaranteed Ukraine's national security." - Yes, and Russia agrees with that. Clearly there is no desire from Russia to invade Ukraine, the place is an economic basket case that can't pay it's bills.
If Russia was going to invade, they would have. What they understand, and you clearly don't, is that Ukraine is not a country. Never has been. It is primarily two groups thrown together because 'history'. Both groups have totally different aims, desires, and histories. One side, Crimea and other area's associate with Russia.
While on the other side, Kiev and other regions are, historically speaking, more 'pro nazi' (See WW Part 2)



The Crimea has been Russian for a long time, it was only because of Khrushcev's 1953 decision to put it into Ukraine that it was ever a part of the country. Below is a detailed analysis of what happened.

Throughout its history, Crimea was run by the Byzantine Empire, the Khazar Khaganate, the Mongol Empire and the Ottoman Empire until it became part of the Russian Empire in 1783.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/politics/10745698/khrushchev-crimea-ukraine.html

This information is from the Telegraph, a UK media source that is not considered to be controlled by Russia and is therefore an acceptable source of factual information. Big grin

2) - "There was treaty on heavy arms withdrawal." Here's the BBC on that subject.

"Pro-Russia rebels in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, say they have "fully removed" heavy weapons from the front line, as agreed in a ceasefire deal.
The claim was made by the head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko, who added that Ukraine had not reciprocated
Ukraine's government said it would move its artillery by the end of Saturday."
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31779869

And.......

"......the spokesman for the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine, Andriy Lysenko, said on Monday that Kiev's forces would not fully pull their heavy weapons from the separation line until the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) assured that the rebel separatists have also pulled their heavy weapons from the area.
Despite the separatist claims that they have indeed withdrawn all their heavy weapons at the beginning of March, Kiev continues to accuse them of regrouping their military equipment in different locations along the frontline, especially near Mariupol.

In turn, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko confirmed on television on Monday that the pro-Russian militias have withdrawn a large part of their heavy weaponry.
There are no heavy weapons along 485 km of the dividing line, with the exception of Pesky and Avdiivka, near the disputed Donetsk airport, Poroshenko confirmed."
https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/heavy-weapons-removed-separation-line-ukraine-132614526.html

So, given the information that I've provided, consider yourself buttkicked. Smile

Where's Waldo?
It's quite silly reading good guy/bad guy arguments. People need to grow up. One corrupt thug Russian supporting oligarch was overthrown by another corrupt EU supporting thug oligarch. To say that the Russians aren't militarily involved in Ukraine is extremely naive and to say that this war is proof that now Russia will invade the rest of Eastern Europe is equally absurd.
Quote from Racer X NZ :So, given the information that I've provided, consider yourself buttkicked. Smile

I give it to your living on far desolated island that you don't understand that Europe has history of more than 1000 years of kickings ones butt to establish new borders.

For latest 70 years we have almost got rid of this trusting on mutual treaties.
Now we are dealing with new barbarian who says: "let's kick butts to establish new borders, like in Crimea". I know your ignorance about what does it mean in Europe comes from lack of knowledge of Europe's history.
In Europe we'd rather get rid of such barbarian because many still do know what happened after Anschluss of Sudetenland in 1938.
Quote from englishlord :It's quite silly reading good guy/bad guy arguments. People need to grow up. One corrupt thug Russian supporting oligarch was overthrown by another corrupt EU supporting thug oligarch. To say that the Russians aren't militarily involved in Ukraine is extremely naive and to say that this war is proof that now Russia will invade the rest of Eastern Europe is equally absurd.

"It's quite silly reading good guy/bad guy arguments. People need to grow up."
We have people like that all over here and they have that attitude about everything. The problem is, these mindless herds have become the majority and have decided to politicize everything. I call them vote drones.
They herded by one of the two major political parties that I like to call buckets of excrement. They hate that.

But your post hit the nail on the head as far as the Ukraine goes. The pathetic thing about the Ukrainians and their pro-Russian buddies is they are willing to kill each other in order to decide which group of criminals controls them. Yeah... this really ain't a "good guy vs bad guy" thing. It's more like Dumb and Dumber crossed with Apocalypse Now. Or what would happen if M-13 and the Crips decide to enter politics directly instead of just buying politicians.

I'm beginning to think the best solution for that region is to send IS over there. Them psychos show up and you'll see those little punks deciding to cooperate.
Oh wait these punks are wannabe gangbangers. Lemme send a couple a people over there I know so then those goof balls can truly understand what La vida loco is. It doesn't appear that either side of this conflict really wants a democratic government anyway. They seem to want to be told how to think. I guess it's easier that way. And the sad thing is that bit of lazy nastiness is happening all over the planet.
You still need some motives? I mentioned them quite a while ago already.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/the-aiib-debacle-what-washington-should-do-now/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2015/03/18/by-the-time-china-launches-aiib-america-will-have-lost-count-of-its-true-allies/

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-says-could-join-china-backed-aiib-conditions-025947174--business.html

This is what many saw coming and what gave some insights in interests of certain happenings that occured around the world.

For those who don't understand the change that this could cause.. read about it.

France, Germany (As i already said as well) , Italy are going to cooperate. (So that is Europe). Japan seems to be doubting.

The direction of money flows will have strong decisive power.
Quote from AndRand :
Quote from Racer X NZ :So, given the information that I've provided, consider yourself buttkicked. Smile

I give it to your living on far desolated island that you don't understand that Europe has history of more than 1000 years of kickings ones butt to establish new borders.

For latest 70 years we have almost got rid of this trusting on mutual treaties.
Now we are dealing with new barbarian who says: "let's kick butts to establish new borders, like in Crimea". I know your ignorance about what does it mean in Europe comes from lack of knowledge of Europe's history.
In Europe we'd rather get rid of such barbarian because many still do know what happened after Anschluss of Sudetenland in 1938.

On my 'far desolated island' ? What planet ARE you inhabiting ? That makes less sense than any of your other statements. Try using a dictionary next time.......
And an Atlas, everyone here knows that's Australia !

Please do tell me how people can't understand European history.

''Got rid of trusting mutual treaties' !!!

Clearly you have never heard of either NATO or this European Union thing that some people mention.

I suspect you actually are implying that mutual treaties on countries borders are a new thing, if that is in fact what your claiming you have clearly never studied the 'last 1000 years of history' at all as mutual treaties have form a part of European history for years before your 1000 year example.

Crimea is a new border ? Do you ever read or learn anything ???

Crimea was a new border in 1953 ! It has now returned to its more historical border.

Perhaps you could try a couple of European history primers before you bother posting something like your last post again.

And, for all those off topic posts on Venezuala (sp) and other American Countries, please research the Munro Doctrine and see where most of these states issues come from.
Please post any conversation on this on a seperate thread though please, Through the Glass Darkly is fine Smile
Racer X NZ (NewZealand?)
you are really getting ridiculous when are unable to cite correctly:
Quote from AndRand :
For latest 70 years we have almost got rid of this trusting on mutual treaties.

if unclear - , comma for you Smile
"For latest 70 years we have almost got rid of this trusting on mutual treaties."

Missing a comma on your original post, and in fact I also said, thinking that you'd made a mistake there,

" I suspect you actually are implying that mutual treaties on countries borders are a new thing, if that is in fact what your claiming you have clearly never studied the 'last 1000 years of history' at all as mutual treaties have form a part of European history for years before your 1000 year example."

It really doesn't matter which is right, your original post or your correction of your original post.

Because they are both completely factually wrong !

In case you really can't remember any history at all, WW part 1 began because of mutual treaties, so that worked out well.....
Quote from Racer X NZ :In case you really can't remember any history at all, WW part 1 began because of mutual treaties, so that worked out well.....

Well, what you bring here were war treaties on distrusting and in case of violating the borders, not peace treaties.
Pre-WWI war treaties created in fact two opposing sides which were not explicit, but unlike nowadays military treaties, like NATO, they worked in domino effect without reconcilliation.
Yet another history lesson for you.....

WW Part 1, Since Russia also favoured peace in the Balkans, from the Russian viewpoint it was desirable to keep Pašić in power.[5] However, the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand gave Austria-Hungary the excuse it needed to declare war on Serbia, and so Russia's efforts to maintain peace via government manipulation were futile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Serbia_relations

Today, MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military capacity needed to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under Article 5 of the Washington Treaty - NATO’s founding treaty - or under a UN mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organizations.
http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/

So, in reality, not a great deal of difference........

And pay attention to the political climate.

The Guardian, a well known Russian news site.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

Brookings Institute, A US Hawk site, talking sense for once so must have been taken over by Russians.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2015/02/06-aiding-ukrainian-military-goad-putin-war-gaddy-hill

Newsweek, another Russian site.
http://www.newsweek.com/biggest-nato-reinforcement-cold-war-sets-frontlines-russian-threat-304722

And here's a bit of humour for the Russian Haters, you'll love it Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYzDOmDxUuI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana

And even Robot's need to learn from experience.......

"A truly useful personal robot [must have] the ability to learn on its own from interactions with the physical and social environment," says Stoytchev, whose field of developmental robotics combines developmental psychology and neuroscience with artificial intelligence and robotic engineering. "It should not rely on a human programmer once it is purchased. It must be trainable."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/robot-learning/

We need to learn from our mistakes so that we do not run the risk of repeating them. We must develop the wisdom and sense to make good decisions and choices. Good judgment will only develop if you truly learn from your mistakes. Unfortunately, for many people, it takes a few repeats of the same mistake to learn the lesson.
You can only learn from the error of your ways if you recognize the fact that you f*cked up.(WW part 1 info) Too many people remain in denial and place the blame on others. The minute you take responsibility for yourself is when the learning process will begin. When you admit your mistakes, you hasten your learning development.
http://elitedaily.com/life/why-you-need-to-learn-from-your-mistakes/
Quote from AndRand :
Quote from Racer X NZ :In case you really can't remember any history at all, WW part 1 began because of mutual treaties, so that worked out well.....

Well, what you bring here were war treaties on distrusting and in case of violating the borders, not peace treaties.
Pre-WWI war treaties created in fact two opposing sides which were not explicit, but unlike nowadays military treaties, like NATO, they worked in domino effect without reconcilliation.

NATO works towards reconciliation ? An organisation made primarily to fight Russia...

All gone to shit in Ukraina, what now?
(629 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG