The online racing simulator
[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4437 posts, closed, started )
I probably agree to col but the facts that finding is already been reasonably delayed or just a ghost preview
I can't believe that so many of you are still bitching and crying about this game and it's slow progress. It's a god dam small development team, they have created an amazing product that rivals any other software of its time for functionality (Circa 2008) and it still has an active community.

It was bound to happen that the rate of development would slow down to point where we no longer see the advancement for ages at a time and other products would start to catch and surpass it, but if you just want fun pickup races with fairly realistic physics then you still have that. If you want something more then go get it and quit polluting this forum and community by moving on.

LFS is still the best product on the market for what it is. If that is not what you want, then shove the (fill in color metaphor of your choice here) off.
Quote from Scawen :There is some misreading of my post going on. LFS development is not on the back burner, and I never said I don't like my work.

I said, I am working on the physics and I look forward to releasing it because of the excitement of it and I added that of course also it will be good for earnings!

To be entirely clear... since our "official" progress report we discovered bugs and further analysis showed other flaws in the tyre model. Further development of the tyre model and further analysis showed up more issues as well. This is that model which we think feels very nice to drive in most sutuations. I am not interested in "fudging" or "bodging" the tyre model and it takes time, research and thinking space to come to the right solutions.

Around Christmas and New Year, time spent with family and so on also causes some delays. I don't regret that.

My post was supposed to let you know what's going on, after dozens of people were complaining about a wall of silence, developers hiding under a rock and all that.

I hope you now have a better understanding of what I was saying. Some guys, please don't try to take the worst possible view of everything. Most people did understand!

Read -> understand -> believe in it and stop crying . His last response on progressing was since march 12th and i think 4 Month of such a huge update is totaly correct. Maybe LFS becomes a CoD release feeling -> Every Christmas a new part of content will be released .

So take your own time to meet u're friends and dont get a 404 on u're RL link


Quote from Gimpster : It's a god dam small development team, they have created an amazing product that rivals any other software of its time for functionality (Circa 2008) and it still has an active community.

LFS is the First and the only game which have such a long and good damn Coding Progress. It dosent matter how long it will take to release the Final Version of all LFS Contents. LFS will never die in my opinion
If you want a good exemple of long and good coding progress just have a look at team fortress 2 blog, they made more than 120 updates since the release date and keep in touch with the customers on forums.
Quote from ldriver :If you want a good exemple of long and good coding progress just have a look at team fortress 2 blog, they made more than 120 updates since the release date and keep in touch with the customers on forums.

TF2 is quite different to a complex tyre physic/simulation. If you take all little updates, you'll get quite a big number too.
Quote from col :Ok, since you are talking about 'facts'
How do you *know* how many hours the devs do or don't work?
How do you *know* how many hours it takes to update tracks?
How do you *know* what the devs have been working on that is not yet public?
Where do your get you 'facts' from?
hmmm...
three posibilities as I see it:
1. You are a close friend of one or more of the devs who tells you these facts knowing that you will spill them on the forum.
2. you are a telepath
3. you have a magic ass from which you regularly pull 'facts' which you then use as the basis of your arguments.

cheers

Col

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1390254#post1390254
and he posts things like that most of the time he talks about how developing lfs is working.
Quote from John5200 :http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1390254#post1390254
and he posts things like that most of the time he talks about how developing lfs is working.

Not sure what your point is ?
Scawen says that his work rate had been slow at that time. That doesn't mean he's not putting in the hours, it means that progress is slow (he explains as much in that same post).

As LFS matures, the laws of diminishing returns kick in. The better LFS gets, the more work is required for even tiny improvements. At the same time, more of the ideas he tries out turn out not to improve the system.
It also gets more complex and much more difficult. Difficult programming is slow and tiring, so work rate is bound to suffer.

Doesn't mean he's not putting in a lot of hours, or that he's stopped trying.
this 1,5 year development has 2 sides...

-we all know that he's doing the tyre physics alone, that eric is designing the rockingham alone (probably), they have families, they work hard all the day so "we can excuse them if it takes long time, we will be ready when it comes, we will play it again then..." (yes, its like quote)

-on the other hand, we are customers, we payed for something and we would like to have the product ready in time. it is really taking too long, without any communication (yes, there IS something to report) with developers, we just know they are working and that's all...hundreds of people forget about this game, no new cars/tracks in years, no update in years, just some few words how to get new internet connection in britain and how to move from one house to another...getting those people back would require massive update with good advertising...

imho when you're developing something for years and you find your game played by 20 people it must be very disappointing, mainly because LFS has the potencial to become top simulator
Regarding your second point - you have received the product you paid for. The product you paid for was ready in time. And there have been updates - maybe not massive updates, or content updates, but there has been updates.

I know the facts get in the way of a good rant - I'm guilty of ignoring facts just to have a nice shout now and again - but it's been repeated here so many times that there isn't really an excuse.
Quote from tristancliffe :maybe not massive updates, or content updates, but there has been updates.

There was a massive content update!

Did you already forgot about the moving brake discs, real life XRT number plate, the lights, the new rims for XR and FBM, the ABS for multiple cars?
Quote from JazzOn :TF2 is quite different to a complex tyre physic/simulation. If you take all little updates, you'll get quite a big number too.

I don't think he was trying to compare FPS to a sim, but two products with similar way of developing. You pay once and then you get free updates along the way. I agree with ldriver on this.

Differences between those two products are from my point of view very obvious.
1) Valve communicates with community. This is the crucial part imo, like everywhere in life. If you stop communicating, you're dead. Personally, i'd welcome more status reports, i don't care if it's "I fixed leaking pipe." or "Rockingham is done and comes out next month.", just do it. Some more teasers would right now help like never before. Onboard of VWS or some SS car on ROC oval, pics or just new progress report.
2) Valve also has bigger team, which makes updates like every week, while working on Portal 2 and maybe HL2:EP3, but that doesn't stop them from doing part 1).

I know there's 90% chance of devs not reading this and/or not doing anything, until patch is out, but i certainly hope something happens this year.
Well, I've said this before and I'll say it again:

Huge wasted potential.

That's all there is to it really. LFS could be the greatest thing ever without anything to be able to touch it, if it were allowed to grow and utilize all of its amazing potential.
Quote from Kid222 :I don't think he was trying to compare FPS to a sim, but two products with similar way of developing. You pay once and then you get free updates along the way. I agree with ldriver on this.

Differences between those two products are from my point of view very obvious.
1) Valve communicates with community. This is the crucial part imo, like everywhere in life. If you stop communicating, you're dead. Personally, i'd welcome more status reports, i don't care if it's "I fixed leaking pipe." or "Rockingham is done and comes out next month.", just do it.
2) Valve also has bigger team, which makes updates like every week, while working on Portal 2 and maybe HL2:EP3, but that doesn't stop them from doing part 1).

They can't be compared really, imo. The problem that Scavier (Scawen) has atm, is a basic engine problem. It's not just little fixes and patches. Those kind of things were, and will be dealt, with in the testpatch time. I'm not that informed on Tf2 forums, but the communication here during that time seems fine to me.

The way i see it is, that for such a complex thing like the tire model, Scawen (or any coder/artist) got to get in some kind of "flow", if you know what i mean. Getting out of that and bother with little things like reports or Q&A, that some-one from a bigger dev team could concentrate on, will only make things alot more time consuming and pushing realease dates way further. They are that small, so it can't really be compared.
Quote : Some more teasers would right now help like never before. Onboard of VWS or some SS car on ROC oval, pics...

I totally agree on that, tho.


Quote from Matrixi :Huge wasted potential.

It's a great base, isn't it?!
And it will be improved even further, it's a big and essential step they doing right now.
I haven’t posted in this thread in a while but I thought I would. Regarding LFS being wasted potential, I don’t think so at all. Yes there is so much potential but so much has already been achieved. People say LFS will die and I don’t think it ever will completely because there will always be new people, thought I could foresee the number of people reducing. Regarding the next patch though, it would be good to see something new, like some updated WIP pictures. However, I don’t feel it is completely necessary as we know what the des are working on so we know (within reason) what the pictures are going to be of. I haven’t played lfs in months and I find some enjoyment for a while when I plug back in but it is soon lost after about an hour of playing. I will play when the new patch comes out to see what it is like, try the new cars/tracks etc but whether it will be ‘new enough’ to re-engage some long term interest I don’t know. If it isn’t, I fear it will be the end of my lfs career really but, I have hope still and only time will tell.
Quote from JazzOn :They can't be compared really, imo. The problem that Scavier (Scawen) has atm, is a basic engine problem. It's not just little fixes and patches. Those kind of things were, and will be dealt, with in the testpatch time. I'm not that informed on Tf2 forums, but the communication here during that time seems fine to me.

JazzOn: It was way better here in past years, communication was done and things were going quite well, but some people were so stoopid to bash Scawen for things he "promised and haven't done", because he has chosen his way of doing things. That's where it went worse, nowadays we're glad, when Sc tells some whiners that they're idiots and bans them/locks thread.
Quote from col :1. A business lasts or fails based on making or losing MONEY. The kind of dialogue folk here seem to expect from the devs is absent from the vast majority of successful businesses for good reasons.

Semantics. Ignoring customers = lost sales = no revenue. Those that have been around long enough know that customer engagement was regular and key to attracting the masses to the game early on.

Quote from col :2. There have been multiple explanations about the lack of updates. They all make sense. These reasons are hard to accept when you want new LFS stuff, but they are still valid reasons.

No one disagrees with the complex nature of the physics. However there has been NO explanation regarding the explicit point about the lack of track development, let alone before any physics update plans/announcements.

Quote from col : 3. Adding an extra developer is just as likely to slow things down or kill the project as to speed things up and make LFS better. Scawen wants to code alone, without Scawen, there is no LFS. Simples.

That argument might have held true in the past when regular updates were released, but development has effectively stalled (by Scawen own admission). By definition you can't kill something that is dead. It really pains me to see this argument peddled over and over, when clearly it can't get any worse, given there's no promises, dates or deadlines.

There has been calls for extra man power for years, way before this current crisis. Each time its been strongly rejected, sighting code complexity, lack of documentation and handover time. And to a point that's accepted by the community when it applies to the code base. Yet these arguments are hardly valid where tracks are concerned. 3 or 4 years have past without a single track addition.

Unfortunately it's poor management, planning and foresight, that's allowed the game community to reach a state where it's crying out for content (paid or free) and being ignored.

Quote from col :
IMO this thread is great. It just demonstrates how important LFS is to lots of people. I reckon that while it keeps going as it is the Devs aren't worried. If folks stopped bitching and moaning, maybe they would get scared and start changing their plans a bit?

cheers

Col

If you're the glass half full type of guy, maybe? Personally it's a travesty and disservice to a game and community. So much opportunity and potential has been wasted. It's reached a point where ideology, ego and contempt for community and customers is a complete joke.

This is just one of 100's of threads of discontent over the years. The Dev's assurance is surely misplaced if they get any comfort from such threads. They only represent human desire to see what was, has or could have been.
Damn give us something to speculate about
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(BlackEdition) DELETED by Victor : completely off topic
Damnit, I got owned.


I personally think there will be 'something' in the end of the year coming. I think it was in the Z25 or Z28 patch thread, where Scawen said that the public can try the tyre physics, before a real patch.

Yes, and I am aware of them saying they might change plans, so don't.
Today I have read more Scawen's posts (some again or once more) from past few years, and I agree with him about LFS.

My opinion is: There out, in our world is so many products what has been very quickly developed and released, but their quality and reliability is so poor, that it is very poor! STOP STOP STOP of these product! I not need these products! I'm very disappointed with these products! Most of my past purchased products of last 5 yeras is very unstable and not reliable, but these products are developed by companies what has very good name and high qualities and reliable products before, I know, because I had some marks and companies what I like more as 5 years back (it is 10-15 years back), and before has very hi quality products, but in last 5 years there is some problem on the market. All quality and reliability of electronics and software products are rapidly going down! Functionality is raising and quality and reliability is going down. What is happen? There are more opened market as never before. There are more competition as never before. All companies want to be first with his product, and it need with minimal expenses or charges but with maximal profit. But it is mathematically not possible for very high quality and reliable products. If I want to develop some products I need some charges and expenses and time for it. If I want develop it in shorter time, then I need more expenses and charges and employes. But it is not possible to do it with no staff/employed personnel without expenses and without developing time. If I using this strategy, result will very quickly and cheaply developed product, but with very poor quality and non reliable product. Because hight quality and reliability need many time for developing, tuning and testing. I want no more (no longer) purchase any shit products from todays market, where is only profit is higher priority! I not need 1000 quickly developed and cheap products! I want 1 product, but with very high quality and reliability! - Are you understand the basics of my words?
Any electronics or SW products purchased in today have so many SW bugs as never before! And it is never updated or solved, because lifetime of all modern products HW or SW are so short, that after few months there were released "new" version or "next generatin" of that product and older version is going to garbage. But my question is: We need this? It will what quality or reliability? We have every month new cheap product, but with no VALUE!
Phylosophy of todays market is sell, but not customer's satisfaction!
Phylosophy of todays market is quantity, but not quality!
Phylosophy of todays market is profit, but not support!
If you want quantity, and every month "next generation" new products, then your choice can be Need for Speed (metaphorically) or any other mass-produced games or products (HW, SW, or electronics). But what new is in every new version of other "simulators" or racing games. Every years coming completelly new versions, but it is only content, but not core or engine of application. Real named cars, but with no real developed physics. Every time new graphics objects or textures, but in core of SW engine and physics engine is never updated. Every version is same game sell again, and again, with new objects (cars, tracks) but with same engine.

But LFS is other type of software. LFS not have everytime new graphics or objects, but it everytime have updated and better developed CORE of application, physics of the LFS, what is basic and most important thing of this very nice simulator. LFS not contain thousands real named cars with not real physics (except few licenced MRT, FBM, BF1, RAC). LFS contain unreal named cars (it is uselessly very expensive charges for 1 real car name, what is few letters), but LFS's cars are based on real cars with real physics and real behaviour, and real look/case/body, or very similar, but released only with unreal name. But simulation of cars will not better from few letters what is real name, but it will better from hard work and developing of high level simulation! In my opinion the LFS is not dying, just it is at beginning. There are so many things what must be to do in future in LFS. But LFS not have mammoth/mega/giant company with many office employees, who doing mostly marketing only, but not directly real technical work with the main product. LFS have 3 developers, from these ONE is programmer!!! LFS is very nice work and product from 1 programmer! It is very clean and stable SW product, with no bugs and mistakes, and with no garbage content (graphical or SW code)!!! LFS never crashed me, also as my old computers from 199x' years. But my new PC from 2007, and my many other new purchased electronics and SW products are very unstable and it have a lot of bugs and mistakes, what has not normally developed and tested with manufacturers.

LFS is only THE ONE stable and reliable product from many hundred other products what I purchased in past 5 years! I not need very quick released and most bug-full product! I need most stable and reliable product! And LFS is that product!

I have tried and tested many other "simulators" as rFactor, GTR series, RACE series, but all is only installed but not used (except first run). These are not bad (compare with NFS), but I'm still not satisfied with their physics modell. But LFS is used and played almost everyday second day (only everyday second day because I have primary work and other duties). LFS is best for me. It is stable, reliable, and have best physics modell on the simulator's market.

I not need XRT with real name, when it is based on real car with very similar look and behaviour of original. I not need modding. Many mods is only trash and garbage. There is many rFactor mods, but 99% is garbage. If I want VW Polo, or Renault Clio, or Skoda Fabia, or Fiat Punto, these are very similar cars with very similar behaviour and parameters. It is not priority to have all off these mods for XFG or real modell, when chassis and physics modell of all these mods is XFG. If you have in-car (cockpit) look, then you not need all these models. And if you have out-back look, then you are not racer, and better for you is go to play NFS.
Be patient, for bug-less and high quality product.
That is all, I want to say. Thank you
Cockpit view doesn't have a realistic viewport, and there are rather huge inaccuracies in LFS' physics, it's the best for you (and me), but I think playing down everything else (but mainly the best rF mods, RealFeel, nKp and iHighwayRobbery) by that much is a bit of a disservice to the "genre". Just imo.
Apparently in S3 there will be rain, so I feel sorry for the people with low end PC's, it's going to make your FPS worse.
and build-in bazooka in each GTR car you can shoot down your opponent with...rocket physics will be so accurate that only core i7 will be capable to calculate it
Quote from majod :and build-in bazooka in each GTR car you can shoot down your opponent with...rocket physics will be so accurate that only core i7 will be capable to calculate it

Nope, they scrapped the bazooka idea because they need to finish the interior for FZR, and anyway, rocket physics would require added horsepower to the actual car to carry them, and by the time you done all that we'll all be dead.
This thread is closed

[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4437 posts, closed, started )
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