The online racing simulator
[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4442 posts, closed, started )
Quote from Dajmin :But LFS, for me anyway, feels a lot more visceral than any other racing games or sims. The lack of assists is really evident. In games like Forza 3, GT5P or Dirt 2 my lap times aren't quick but I can keep the cars on the road and moving pretty fast. But there's rarely a time when I feel the car is in danger of flying across the road out of my control.

In LFS that's always on the cards. I know that braking a fraction too late will put me on the gravel, I know that a little too much oversteer and I'll end up pointing the wrong way. That's what keeps me interested and that's why I always want to come back.

I agree with everything said here, but for me personally I find the RWD cars in LFS too difficult to control.

In LFS I'm well able to race in all FWD and 4WD cars, but seem unable to race correctly in the RWD cars. They seem too slippery to me and I cannot consequently race them without losing them at some corner, even the low powered cars or maybe especially even the low powered cars. For some reason in GT5p I've just got a way better feel with the RWD cars and this has to do with the feedback the game gives in my opinion, not necessarily difficulty, but I don't know what exactly is different. What FWD and 4WD feels like to me in LFS is similar to what RWD feels like to me in GT5p; predictable, understandable and correctable.

The RWD feel in GT5P seems to me more real, because I cannot imagine an RWD to actually drive that difficult in real life or I would expect a lot more crashes irl.

I expect the new tyre physics to change this feel (for better or worse )and maybe Scawen is able to explain how his expected changes might influence the handling or what effects were seen that caused him to start rethinking the physics in the first place..
Quote from southamptonfc :The problem that LFS is going to have now that progress is so slow, is that it will eventually be overtaken by rivals and potential customers will go elsewhere.

Quote from danowat :In many peoples eyes, this has already happened, alot of LFS'ers have already moved to different sims.

LFS has long since been surpassed by all 3 of the main competitors IMO, those being iRacing, nKp and rFactor. In the case of rFactor it's obviously not the standard content but quality mods with proper physics. One can only assume that the release of rFactor 2 will only increase the gap with LFS.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that those 3 aren't seriously lacking in some aspects where LFS does it better or even excels, but as far as the actual driving aspect is concerned LFS is lagging behind IMO.

Quote from Dajmin :The thing is, all it'd take to draw people back in is a graphical overhaul. And we already know that's in the (admittedly pretty long) pipeline.

I really don't think so. While LFS' graphics are hardly its strongpoint they are not that horrible, either. For me, after having raced all of the 3 previously mentioned race sims, it's the "feel" of LFS that puts me off it each and every time I decide to give it another try. It just doesn't feel anything like driving a real car IMO. I can't put my finger on it and I don't know how else to describe it, but there's just something way off about the whole way the cars feel and behave. I have no doubt that a lot of this has to do with LFS' infinite setup options resulting in ridiculous setups. That's another thing where the other 3 race sims are better than LFS; they only allow (more) realistic setup options and as a result the cars will feel more like you would expect a car to feel. Then of course there's the lack of FFB you get in LFS, combined with the supersmooth track surfaces giving you a pretty dull drive.

Quote from Dajmin :In games like Forza 3, GT5P or Dirt 2 my lap times aren't quick but I can keep the cars on the road and moving pretty fast. But there's rarely a time when I feel the car is in danger of flying across the road out of my control.

You can't honestly compare LFS to Forza, GT or Dirt Of course LFS is the better "sim" out of those, but that's not saying much. In my opinion the only sims you can compare it to are iRacing, nKp and rFactor, everything else is usually one or more steps down the "sim" ladder.
Quote from arco :Release early. Release often. And listen to your customers.

I support this. But not as a official release.

We could have a S2/S3 users only "EXPERIMENTAL" version of the current patch in development, this version would be unfinished and bug-filled with a section dedicated to it and maybe topic locked to avoid people posting and spamming. This will increase sales by a lot and make people happy, calm and supportive.

After this experimental version is more stable and less bug-filled, it would go as official public TEST patch where people can report bugs. I've seen this method for plenty of games and it works GREAT.

Scawen, please consider this.
I wasn't directly comparing them, but those are the biggest market in the racing game world. All eyes are on them, and especially with the amount of physics work involved in FM3 and GT5 a comparison is inevitable.

I've never played iRacing (and I never will) and my experience of NKP ended when I couldn't redefine the controls (so I was stuck in 1st gear). But in terms of rF v LFS, I think it all comes down to the staff headcount, doesn't it?
Without mods, rF would be in an even poorer state than LFS is. Without releasing the finished product, ISI probably wouldn't have let modders near it. Without so many people working on it, rF would never have been finished.

I keep trying to argue against getting more people involved with LFS, but in terms of keeping it as a marketable competitor it's getting really hard! With minor mods like the hi-res textures, LFS can look really good, but with rF2 somewhere on the horizon maybe LFS is just destined to be one of those programs that has amazing potential but takes about 20 years to get there.
I love the feel of driving in LFS. It just feels right. No other racer has ever given me that "holy crap" feeling as I hurtle into a corner with tyres squealing. I've done the same thing in real life (accidentally on a narrow country B-road) and like to believe it was my LFS experience that kept me from ending up mangled on a banking. I refuse to become a doomsayer, I just love it too much
Quote from Dajmin :The thing is, all it'd take to draw people back in is a graphical overhaul.

I'm with obsolum on this one.

And, in my eyes, if a graphical overhaul was not just the corollary to proper updates (tyre model, better tracks, FFB, limited/locked sets etc), it would only bring more of the 'wrong' type of players.
Agreed, graphics might apeal to the wider gaming community.

For me, the graphics are fine as they are and I want to see improved physics, more realisim (more track detail, marbles, changing conditions etc) and some more car types.

I think that if graphics were a really a problem with LFS, it wouldn't have the following it does. The sense of realism, physics simulation and multiplayer performance are what makes it better than the rest, but for how long???
Just a wild guess what Scawen 'forced' to rethink the physics. Rain compatibility with tires, surface and stuff around it? It would make a sense after all..
Ok, stop thinking Mich, back to reality.. hehe
There are millions of threads about changing conditions, both weather and time of day. And both require a graphical overhaul Realtime lighting for day-night transitions, pixel shader models for wet surfaces. That's the main reason I've focused on that; so much other stuff depends on it.

There is no easy answer. We're all in the dark as to what Scawen is doing, and presumably he's not just dossing around eating pizza It would be nice to know, but I understand why he doesn't want hopes built up (the original Scirocco release is a prime example). We all just have to deal with the updates as they come.

Even the most massive waterfalls are started with a slow trickle Then again, maybe I'm biased because I've been wheel-less for a while and as such didn't get the chance to get sick of the current content. I can't say any physics bugs really jumped out at me, certainly not in a normal race.
Quote from Dajmin :There are millions of threads about changing conditions, both weather and time of day.

And 99.9% of them are wishful thinking.

The devs of competing sims are not talking about implementing wet and/or changing weather in the foreseeable future. In the best scenario it's a planned feature: "maybe", "someday".

The only exception to this rule is rFactor 2 which we don't have a release date for yet, and however it will have to prove itself as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from AeoIus :I agree with everything said here, but for me personally I find the RWD cars in LFS too difficult to control.

In LFS I'm well able to race in all FWD and 4WD cars, but seem unable to race correctly in the RWD cars. They seem too slippery to me and I cannot consequently race them without losing them at some corner, even the low powered cars or maybe especially even the low powered cars.

The XRG is probably one of the harder cars to drive because of the low amount of stiffness in the tires. But if you keep increasing the air pressure in the tires then the handling becomes more stable but with less grip and slower lap times. And when choosing between speed or stability most people choose speed so stable setups are hard to find. If you try the XRT with normal tires and use restrictor settings to get the same power to weight ratio as the XRG, then you will find the cars handle much better even though the coefficient of friction is about the same.

Try starting with lots of understeer and low power and work your way towards faster setups.
I hope the big patch doesn't come anytime soon because my stupid wheel decided to become fubar and I don't want to waste the big comeback by playing with keyboard.

:eclipsee_
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(majod) DELETED by majod
Quote from southamptonfc :The sense of realism, physics simulation and multiplayer performance are what makes it better than the rest, but for how long???

imho, people would like to play racing simulator, not simulation equations...

you need to simulate look & feel & sound, not only TYRES and AERODYNAMICS
Quote from breadfan :I hope the big patch doesn't come anytime soon because my stupid wheel decided to become fubar and I don't want to waste the big comeback by playing with keyboard.

:eclipsee_

Now everyone knows who is to blame when scavier decides to delay the patch from being released tomorrow.
Quote from majod :imho, people would like to play racing simulator, not simulation equations...

Heh, that's actually a very nice way to put it Many people on different forums are always going on about how and how accurately the physics are being calculated and simulated and whatnot, but it's all worthless if you don't manage to convey the look and feel of racing a car, which is exactly where LFS fails, no matter how accurate its physics may or may not be.
For me, it's all worthless if you don't convey the feel. Looks are very much a "nice to have".

If you go for the looks without proper physics simulation, you have NFS.

Have you seen the simulators that the F1 teams use? They are probably the most technically advanced and realistic driving simulators available but the graphics are nothing to write home about.

The reason is because to do the job of correctly simulating driving a car and making the feel of driving as close to real life as possible, it's all about the physics and accuracy of the simulation. Fancy graphics are not needed. Sure, they don't hurt but they aren't the key to a good sim.
that's exactly what i said...people want to play game, which has absolutely perfect physics simulation, absolutely perfect graphics (come on, no one can say he doesn't really want it) and sound, so when you drive your XRR at AS, you feeeeeel the speed, hear the engine working and squealing tyres (not in the way they sound right now)
otherwise, press F9, "F" and drive the simulator that F1 team uses...and there will be you and 5 other players in your team...

I want to add, that it is not entirely my opinion, I just think that majority of people think this way... I'm ok with graphics right now, sounds are...OK...,interiors really suck (climatization and radio in GTR car??), new interiors are all in same theme - blue display with black text & some buttons around...so each new car will have this blue display right...
I have many friends, who rather play some simbin, just because of this, graphics and sounds...and physics are OK, so...

again, it is not entirely how I see it...I love lfs, that's why i've bought it...but some people must admit, that with better graphics, car models and engine sounds there will be better success...not everyone is ok with 10/10 physics and 5/10 graphics
I am interested and eager to play S3, but when will that be?
I don't know and I don't care, because I still have a lot of fun playing LFS now.
Quote from southamptonfc :For me, it's all worthless if you don't convey the feel. Looks are very much a "nice to have".

That's pretty much what I said, except that I think that LFS totally lacks the feel while you think it gets it right

Quote from southamptonfc :
The reason is because to do the job of correctly simulating driving a car and making the feel of driving as close to real life as possible, it's all about the physics and accuracy of the simulation. Fancy graphics are not needed. Sure, they don't hurt but they aren't the key to a good sim.

See, this is what I was referring to. The argument that it's all about the physics and the graphics and sounds don't matter just doesn't fly. If you want to properly convey the feeling of racing a car, decent graphics and (especially) convincing sounds are as important as the physics aspect. Right now LFS may have proper physics (although I still think there's something very off with the tyres, let's hope the new tyre model fixes that) but it just doesn't offer a very thrilling driving experience IMO, save for a few combo's. Like I said before, a lot of that is no doubt due to the overly smooth track surfaces and the pretty dull FFB.

For example, blasting down the Le Mans straight in a Ford GT40 or a Detomasso Pantera (sp?) or pretty much any other car in the HistorX mod for rFactor is such an exhillirating experience even though it's just a long straight that hardly requires any steering input. Yet it is infinitely more thrilling than driving the BF1 on the twisty city tracks of South City. I'm taking an rFactor mod as example here, but I could make the same comparison with nKp or iRacing; they just feel so much better and exciting to drive than LFS ever did for me.
I don't think the graphics of today's LFS is too bad, but it's good news if it gets improved in some way.


Quote from southamptonfc :...
Have you seen the simulators that the F1 teams use? They are probably the most technically advanced and realistic driving simulators available but the graphics are nothing to write home about.
...

Any pictures ?
Quote from majod :I have many friends, who rather play some simbin, just because of this, graphics and sounds...and physics are OK, so...

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck to them. Don't expect it to fly, though

Part of the simracing crowd is about fooling themselves into thinking they're looking at a duck (=driving around in a realistic sim), while not having even the faintest clue of what a duck is supposed to do (=realistic handling).

Sadly, LFS is no different, there's plenty of people who will swear it's more realistic than anything else just because they've learnt to race it. The irony is -how you said- most of the time it doesn't even look or sounds like the real thing.
Quote :added fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 15:00
>LFS S2 ALPHA 0.5P released

Hello racers!

I don't think today's topic requires further explanation. The first public S2 is there for you to download!

This S2 download will act like the S2 demo, for which no license is required. But if you want to be able to access the entire content of S2, you will need an S2 license. For more information see the 'Read before you buy' and 'Buy a license' pages.

You can download the S2 ALPHA 0.5P version from the special S2 download page which you've probably already met

Have fun!

pfieuw almost 5 years ago. Its been a long time. I hope S3 will come out before i blast my last breath.
But tyre physics update is a good thing. It is realistic now but also a little bit strange. Not as it goes in real. Hope the devs can make it.
:lfs:
Quote from Elco :pfieuw almost 5 years ago. Its been a long time. I hope S3 will come out before i blast my last breath.
But tyre physics update is a good thing. It is realistic now but also a little bit strange. Not as it goes in real. Hope the devs can make it.
:lfs:

prob come out when you are a o.a.p lol
Quote from NightShift :Sadly, LFS is no different, there's plenty of people who will swear it's more realistic than anything else just because they've learnt to race it. The irony is -how you said- most of the time it doesn't even look or sounds like the real thing.

I agree however I would add that for me at least, coming from a real car to lfs that lfs felt the most natural. By this I mean that while the graphics aren't great but the cars behave like I expect them too, more so than other sims. However, this is still slightly biased as I have no idea how GT2/GT1 cars or 1960 f1 cars handle for example.
Quote from Greboth :I agree however I would add that for me at least, coming from a real car to lfs that lfs felt the most natural.

What do you mean with 'real car' and what sets are you using?
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[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4442 posts, closed, started )
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