I accept, of course, that our opinions are neither qualified nor quantifiable. And of course there is nothing wrong with them being different either. I just wanted to go over a few things that you said, though, to clarify how I see them differently.

Quote from Jertje :

I must've been unclear on this: I'm not talking about the history he's had so far, I'm talking about the history he didn't have.

I think I must be missing the point, because I look at Hamilton's driving career to date and it is, without a doubt, comprehensive and complete. Most recently, his performance in GP2 was mint. I've never heard anyone say differently and give good reasons. The only thing he doesn't have is a famous racing driver for a dad or uncle. I look at Piquet this year and figure that's not really much of a loss.

Quote from Jertje :

Winning is easy, and once you're on a roll it only becomes easier.

I don't see that at all. Every race and every season is its own event or series of events, with its own variables. I don't think there is such a thing as "on a roll" in F1, frankly.

Quote from Jertje :

Bouncing back from a losing streak is hard, as is climbing out of the mud that is a low-budget F1 team. Hamilton has done great things in his racing career, but he hasn't had to face the usual hardships in F1 and probably never will.
That's my point.

There are so many variables in F1 that I don't really think you'd ever be able to quantify a driver on losing streak. You can get in a naff car, that you simply can't get to work, but it is standard practice for a team to gather comprehensive telemetry and I don't think any team these days is under any illusion about where their limitations and/or bottlenecks are. A losing streak in F1, for a driver, would be simply a driver not capable of doing what's needed or just not on top of his game. I don't think you can realistically define a losing streak more granularly than a whole team as a package.

Looking at the bigger picture, there is no such thing as a F1 driver, with a drive for a year, suffering "hard times". Button is a prime example of this. He's riding the wave [man!], regardless of the fact that he hasn't managed to get into Q2 in what seems like forever. I bet you he's loving his chosen career to bits.

I dunno.. I just figure that a comprehensive discussion needs some myths about the sport to be dispelled before you can properly get to the nuts and bolts about who can and does achieve what.

Quote from sinbad :

Heikki's first season in F1 was with reigning champions Renault.
Raikkonen stepped straight into an F1 race seat from a Formula Renault, 20 something car races in total.
I think Button had a good rookie year in British F3 before being handed a (then half competitive) Williams drive.
Just like Hamilton, their talent was recognised and they were given a shot.

At least Lewis was actually GP2 champion when he was awarded the McLaren seat. Not every Formula Renault UK champion is in F1 the following season, not even in a Sauber-equivalent team.

If that's someone's cause to dislike Lewis, they're seriously misguided or misinformed imho.

Formula Renault and British F3 aren't exactly what I would call cheap, people's ideas of cheap vary i guess though.

Plus Hamilton (being sponsored by Mclaren) was quite a bit more likely to get a Mclaren seat that most.

I was replying to Kev, who was wondering why Lewis Hamilton is such as 'cock' (which seems to be true, given his comments and behavoiur), perhaps, if Hamilton has always been well supported and has the privelidge of going straight into one of F1's most competetive teams, he might take his position for granted, hence his arrogance and 'cock' like behavoir.

There are plenty of drivers who land a drive first in a top team, some underperform (Heiki Kovalleminemium), some overperform (Lewis Hamilton). To say that Hamilton does not deserve his drive in McLaren is to say that McLaren should not be recruiting talent from the lower formulas and investing in developing drivers but instead should only pick drivers from those Torro Rosso and Force India bring to the fore.

I think the real focus of anyone so jealous of Hamilton's "easy" drive should be directed at his team mate, who by contrast, is doing a really rather rubbish job in the same equipment.

People will always hate Hamilton because he's fast. It was the same for Schumacher, Mansell, Hill, Prost, Senna, Villenueve, and any other champion of times past.

What is remarkable about Hamilton is he generates these kind of discussions without having won the title yet, the only driver who I can remember doing anyting like that before was Hill - but anyone who watches the sport knew Hill had won years before he actually did and was too busy either loving or hating Schumacher to get all that passionate about Hill.

Quote from Becky Rose :

There are plenty of drivers who land a drive first in a top team, some underperform (Heiki Kovalleminemium), some overperform (Lewis Hamilton). To say that Hamilton does not deserve his drive in McLaren is to say that McLaren should not be recruiting talent from the lower formulas and investing in developing drivers but instead should only pick drivers from those Torro Rosso and Force India bring to the fore.

I never said that he doesn't deserve his place, just that he may not realise how lucky he is sometimes.

Most previous F1 champions started off in slightly less competetive teams (Senna started off with Toleman, although they weren't doing too bad at the time), Hamilton is one of several newer drivers who are lucky to immediately get put into a top team without having to show their talent in F1 first.

Quote from SamH :

I don't see that at all. Every race and every season is its own event or series of events, with its own variables. I don't think there is such a thing as "on a roll" in F1, frankly.

There are so many variables in F1 that I don't really think you'd ever be able to quantify a driver on losing streak. You can get in a naff car, that you simply can't get to work, but it is standard practice for a team to gather comprehensive telemetry and I don't think any team these days is under any illusion about where their limitations and/or bottlenecks are. A losing streak in F1, for a driver, would be simply a driver not capable of doing what's needed or just not on top of his game. I don't think you can realistically define a losing streak more granularly than a whole team as a package.

Well, this is something I can honestly only draw from my own experiences in competing in various sports/hobbies; it's just harder to perform well when things have not been going your way. Hamilton's main strength seems to be his incredible confidence in his own ability, and this undoubtedly motivates him to an even higher level. I just wonder how he would be doing, from a psychological stand-point, if he had started his career in a Force India.

This might be a laughable example when compared to an F1 driver/team, but when I started iRacing I built up an amazing confidence and got into streaks of great results. Then due to some brainfade I managed to spin out of the lead on the last lap of a race, while I was in front of a proper alien. He couldn't avoid me and I couldn't get out of the way, and the end result was that we both finished last and second to last. We talked it over after the race and for some reason I was really apologetic about the whole thing; he didn't seem to mind much. The end result was that it took me a few weeks to gain that confidence back and get into a winning mood again.

Now, I know that F1 drivers have a much more controlled mind than I ever will, and that they are able to (mostly) block out such negative thoughts, but I do believe that although Jenson Button has great love and passion for his career, his self-efficacy will be a lot lower than Hamilton's. That won't mean that Button cares less than Hamilton, or doesn't want to win as badly, but it does mean (and I am assuming that my theory is correct, obviously ) that Hamilton has a much bigger belief in himself and this is what drives him to keep going.

I'd just like to see if he would be the same guy if he hadn't won anything yet, and his best result was a P6 finish and he was glad to score some points for his grid-filling team, do you catch my drift?

It's not about "being on a losing streak", or like you said, underperforming at his job -- I realise that drivers in lower teams are not paid to win WDC's -- it's just about the build up of his own self-confidence and self-efficacy and how it would've been if he hadn't had such a relatively easy start to his F1 career.

Anyway, I think I'm straying far too much towards theory and back-to-the-future styled parallel universes in my arguments, and it's gone down to hypothesising over things that weren't, and won't be. So I'll leave it at that.

It's often said that in F1 once you win a race winning becomes easier.

Unfortunatley nobody appears to have explained this concept to Lewis' team mate.

Quote from Becky Rose :

It's often said that in F1 once you win a race winning becomes easier.

Unfortunatley nobody appears to have explained this concept to Lewis' team mate.

I don't think even Kovalainen himself considered that a win

This is an interesting piece from Webber, illustrating a lot of what we "know" about Hamilton is basically just the usual media bullshit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7680529.stm

Actually he seems to take credit for blowing Massa's engine by 'pushing him'

Quote from Heiki Kovlilinneneiieunemeum :

But I tried to put pressure, especially in the last stint, on Felipe, trying to push him and maybe something would happen, you never know. When I saw the car on fire in the main straight with big smoke I thought it must be Felipe but it is hard to believe. After that of course there was no big rush anymore. With three laps to go it was just a case of bringing it home. In the end it is a great moment for myself and I am very happy. It is a very happy moment for our team and I am looking forward to the rest of the season.

I dont think till any of us know LH personally there's no way to judge what sort of person he is . He does appear arrogant but maybe thats just his "race face".James Allen and other media types do not help his cause at all.

Wow - say what you like about Hamilton, but people certainly like talking about him! It's funny, some people say he is a corporate vassle, jingoing the teams newspeak. Others say he is a mouthy cock-piece, derailing the formula hamony. Facts are facts, Hamilton has great victories and awesome drives, but no one can doubt he's lucked into it and Ron Denis is his uncle. Plus Schumacher and Senna were ****s, and great. But you can't compare Hamilton to them, cause he's new. But you have to compare him, as they're the benchmark. And they sucked. They were great! Did I mention Ron Denis is his aunt? Hamilton is a sucky, crap, ninja god. ON ACID!

DT, I think you have drank too much, or "dun 2 men-E lynz"

Regardless. It seems most people don't like Hamilton because of his attitude and simply, he isn't modest enough. It's the thing I don't like about him too, but you can't say that he is a bad driver, if you go into Formula 1 timid and modest, you end up like Kovalinen, nice as hell, but shit. Kimi is king cos he keeps his mouth shut, shame he can't keep it out of the wall...

i think hamilton is a great driver and maybe he will become a "f1-legend". tbh, i haven't heard of him since some months before he entered f1. i don't watch formula-motorsport very much, but i heard he had great talent. i was thrilled and hoped that the "underdog" does a great job in his first year. he did and i was delighted, maybe a little bit because i am not a big alonso fan, although i am really impressed by what he is doing the last races and because it seems to me, that he stopped talking so much arrogant nonsense. if he keeps this up, maybe i will get a alonso fan .

well, hamilton now does the arrogant-nonsense-talk, which makes it difficult for me sheering for him, but i don't hate him. he is just not my favourite anymore.

i only have the problem that while e.g. michael schumacher is the antichrist for every bad sentence he said or a bad move he has done in his entire career, in this forum hamilton is treated very differently, mostly by britsh users.

although i would like to add, that the most annoying thing are the the extreme positions some ppl in this forum have to take. no matter if they are a fan or a hater. i just can't understand how someone can get that biased. i would never ever hope that someone crashes in a race. i think, that is a sick thing to do in a motorsport where you still can get badly injured are even get killed.

Quote from Fetzo :

i only have the problem that while e.g. michael schumacher is the antichrist for every bad sentence he said or a bad move he has done in his entire career, in this forum hamilton is treated very differently, mostly by britsh users.

Don't mention the war... ;p

I do see how Hamilton's controversies do make him something of a Schumacher figure, the thing is Hamilton has as many controversies going against as he has going for, well possibly more going against of late. That is a significant difference.

More importantly though, he stands for something else. Schumacher was about winning at all costs and be damned to fairness or the spirit of sport or any of that mallarky, he wanted to win. Hamilton has that too but he still - at least until the end of this year - is the young underdog. He's out there learning, and winning, and promising to deliver in spades.

If Hamilton was to be forced to leave racing now, by injury or death, he would be remembered as 'probably the best driver there ever was, who promised so much'.

Not a bad achievement for a kid from Stevenage, where the concept of opportunity usually meens an opportunistic mugging. It really is the most socially deprived place that I know.

Quote :

although i would like to add, that the most annoying thing are the the extreme positions some ppl in this forum have to take.

Sport is synonimous with passion, and like all passions people will exercise them until their getting an astmah attack.

Its a fact of life: people that get to the top of anything these days tend to be ... er... difficult to get on with. Fully rounded, agreeable people tend to think about the consequences of their actions for too long to get to the front of the queue.

Frankly, for a young man in the spotlights of the F1 circus, Lewis Hamilton is a remarkably 'nice guy'. I'm intrigued by him. His 'facing the public' persona is slightly annoying, since it plays to everything we hate about F1. He's an unruffled, team player, who's appreciative of his boss. A corporate cocksucker in other words.

But his driving style says something else. He's happy to let the car move around, he's a bit impulsive, a bit of a risk taker. At the same time as the plainly coached persona says "contemporary, globalised business", his driving says "scary sport in which people die".

I think people are reacting quite unconsciously to this contradiction in Hamilton.

Quote from mr_x :

Indeed I'm dreading this winter, and after the Brazil race... IF Hamilton wins the championship there will be TV programs about it everywhere, everything, telling us all we already know, hosted by James 'let me suck his dick first please' Allen most likely. He'll be in adverts more than now... Indeed, I just want to put a shotgun to his face!

Can you imagine

Sports Personality of The Year 2008 :banghead: :wtf2:

[quote=SamH;956183]He's paid handsomely to tow the party line. That's part of his job. His perceived arrogance may indeed be perceived, as you say, but it isn't necessarily actual arrogance. Just perceived.{/quote]

If its all an act, the bloke deserves an Oscar or six.

[quote=SamH;956183]The guy is 1 race away from winning his first WDC in F1, in his 2nd ever F1 season. All well and good, as long as HE doesn't think he's doing alright. If he were to utter the words that HE thinks he's an alright driver, you'd nail him to a cross. LOL?[/quote]

Erm, atm I'd nail him to a cross for pretty much any reason

[quote=SamH;956183]Nothing he does or says will make you like the guy because you think he's..
so he'll never do right by you.[/quote]

C'mon Sam, that line was a throwaway exaggeration with a touch of attempted humour. People change, so feel free not to tell how I'll manage my future opinions of others. Look at Alonso, never had a high opinion of him until this year

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Now, why Hamilton is a cock could potentially be an interesting topic.

Why? Here's a quote from a review of Vic Elford's biography:

Quote :

Consider Vic’s 1968 season. It began with his win in the prestigious Monte Carlo Rally followed by a win the next weekend in the Daytona 24 Hours. He was second at Sebring a month later, then in May scored an epic victory at the Targa Florio, which is considered the greatest win in Targa history. Two weeks later Vic won the Nürburgring 1000 Kilometers. Then in his first F1 race in July Vic took a badly out-classed Cooper T86B to a stunning fourth-place finish in the soaking-wet French Grand Prix.

To my knowledge, no world class driver could claim such diversity these days. Hamilton's problem is that the excitement he generates reminds us how insipid F1 (or maybe even the world in general) really is these days. He reminds us of a lot names belonging to mostly dead, young men, and we're not sure how to deal with what we actually want from our sport. Can anyone really be 'legendary' in the same sense as the legends we inevitably compare them to?

The diversity bit reminds me the time Rossi challenged Alonso, after Fernando flapped his trap about Rossi's abilities in an F1 car as he had done some testing at the time, to time trials: in an F1 car, on a motogp bike and in a rally car. Sadly that never went through as the chicken spaniard out.

People talk about LH cockiness alot. Personally I think he has supreme confidence in himself and in McLaren. Whether he would do so well in a car further down the grid is only speculation, everyone reacts differently so it is an unknown.

While I personally think LH does come across badly in interviews due to the corporate bull and 'cockiness' I do wonder whether he is like that really. You see him before the race he shakes all the mechanics hands; is that PR again or LH natural personality. There are other exampls of this though but it is open to opinion.

Last year for me was when LH confirmed himself a good (note: good not great) driver in challenging a former WDC Alonso in the same machinery and a second (WDC material) Raikkonen in a different but equally fast car and almost winning the championship. Now say all you like about 'he got the best machinery, he got paid into the events' etc how many drivers could really do that? While I think the calling LH great and the comparisons to Schu and Senna are wrong. To have that you have to prove yourself which LH hasn't done. He hasn't won a WDC (yet) and still makes some fundamental mistakes. Though I can see some comparisons when peole are comparing driving styles and personality and not simply 'he's great'.

While LH has every chance of becoming the great driver he looks to become it could all go wrong for him. Personally speaking I want LH to win the WDC for 3 reasons: Hes British, He drives a Mclaren and lastly it means he would beat a Ferrari. That does not make me a fanboy anything though, LH has made too many mistakes and I don't think he deserves to win the WDC this season, Kubica does. Kubica can't win the championship though so by default it was going to be one of the GB drivers, of which LH is one of them.

He certainly will be remebered after hes retired, but perhaps not for the good things.

Maybe he will Mellow if he stays in F1 long enough, plenty of drivers have come into F1 as agressive nutters and have left as sucessful, mature drivers (e.g. Ricardo Patrese and Jody Scheckter).

I think his dad manipulates him to be the way he is.

It seems alot of you just have nothing on Lewis, you blame his attitude because in actual fact, you are jealous, he's just honest, he is good. He's not the best until he wins a championship, but that only means he was the best THAT year. I honestly think people are just jealous, who wouldn't be? But you'll get nowhere if you don't admit it.

first, looking at the 1st page, I see bullsh!t in some posts...

second, it's strange that when 2007 started Lewis was the talk of the paddock, but nothing hateful was said about him. mid '07, some spaniards (no offense) started chants of "Hamilton ca...., Alonso campeón" and calling such names as "Hamiltonto" and "F..kington" (I don't blame them, as I saw things that proved he was being favoured more than Alonso). And from that point on, we could see his real side, an arrogant daddy's little peewee.
And I'm bloody sure everybody will agree with me that when he said he would be as good (or better than) as Ayrton Senna, that was it.

Quote from Senninha25 :

And I'm bloody sure everybody will agree with me that when he said he would be as good (or better than) as Ayrton Senna, that was it.

Are you sure the media didn't just make that up?

I can't remember him saying that in a video interview. In fact he has recently said he admires Senna and would be happy to achieve even a small amount of his success.

If you can provide a video where he says that though go ahead.

Quote from RossUK :

Are you sure the media didn't just make that up?

I can't remember him saying that in a video interview. In fact he has recently said he admires Senna and would be happy to achieve even a small amount of his success.

I know that, he even visited Senna's grave at the Morumbi cemetery last year, and even though the media made it up, a lot of fans started to hate him.