Fastest mouse driver I ever saw was Phlos/Robert Deek, but that had nothing to do with the mouse, he was just an alien.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Always wanted to express my frustration about this but never did..

Thing that started to put me off from LFS (among other things) is this freakin mouse domination. It's gettin redicolous that in almost all cars (if not all) you get pwned by mouse users!? I thought that real cars are driven with the steering wheel and pedals, but LFS doesn't think so..
It's stupid how precise you can drive with the mouse, and it's stupid how effortless it is. You basicaly move the mouse 2 cm to both sides and that's full lock for ya.. Gas and brake on the mouse seems to have no disadvantage when you do it with real pedals, ON THE CONTRARY, it seems it's better and faster, so what's the point in wheel and pedals, let's cancel them altogether.. Don't say how mouse users can't drive long stints because of the tires, cause they CAN, and besides, i mostly drive short races so that doesn't matters...
I don't know, it seems that anyone can get good with the mouse, just give them free time and perfect racing line display (yes, that new uber realistic option that replaced that arcade thing from hell, the Digital Speedo!)
It seems like Counter strike players can get super fast with the mouse, that's how i feel.. They can drive 24h races by themselves probably, since there's no physical fatigue involved..
Don't get me wrong, i'm perfectly aware that there are people with physical incapabilities and can't use their legs, i'm talking more about the steering, since it's redicolous how precise you can be with the mouse and how fast you can countersteer.
/rant over

The races are short you say so this 24h thing is moot. Countersteering only needs to be fast and long in "whoopsie" moments or drifting. This full lock in 2 cm business is a disadvantage as it's twitchy as hell, was the biggest difference for me when I switched to wheel, wheels are more precise especially at 540/720.
As for being faster with a mouse over wheel in PB situations, ei one lap, you don't mention one valid point that makes sense. Did you or nesrulz check WHY he was faster with mouse on KY2/XFR. Could it be this thing that DUcK mentions? If so then this can be replicated with a wheel by simply driving more aggressively, especially brake/throttle application.

Unless you can show why mouse is faster then wheel AND that this cannot be done with wheel, then it makes no sens to argue.

perhaps it's driving style, I had different setups for wheel and mouse because mouse sets felt sluggish with wheel, but wheel sets were underivable with mouse as they just were too twitchy.

Edit. Didnd't quite get what you wanted to accomplish with this thread, so assumed you watned mouse removed, see you don't. You're just telling us that you're mad that some few select drivers are faster with mouse? Can it be simply due to talent and practice?

Hello Dui! Long time no see!

Sorry for off-topic...

Remove the mouse from this game and I am screwed

I am disabled and drive using mouse emulation with the trackir

And mouse driving is not as easy as people think

no force feedback and constant counter steering is a pain but at least mouse steering allows me to play this great game

Agreed, as a few of us have said, if you really wanna remove something make it the button clutch
Removing mouse is unfair to people who are physically disabled or for people who can't afford a wheel. At the end of the day, it's a game, a sim, yes, but a game for fun

Quote from boyracer1981 :

Remove the mouse from this game and I am screwed

I am disabled and drive using mouse emulation with the trackir

And mouse driving is not as easy as people think

no force feedback and constant counter steering is a pain but at least mouse steering allows me to play this great game

Ever heard of the OCZ NIA? That thing might increase your potential by a lot, I'm definitely getting one

Quote from arco :

Hello Dui! Long time no see!

Hello arco!

To keep on topic: As far as unfair advantage topic is brought up I agree button clutch should be removed, or at least limited to the speed of autoclutch as I think there are those who enjoy the complexity that it adds. Still though this is nitpicking and not very important.

Ok, the fastest drivers are mostly mouse drivers, is this because most drivers are mouse drivers or because driving with mouse is just faster?

Only thing I know is, that if I 'race' with mouse I don't have near as much fun as I do with the wheel, partly because I suck with mouse, partly because a wheel is much cooler.

Let's see if/what CTRA will do about it.

I mean come on, if you have the choice between a wheel and a mouse, and you choose the mouse because you are faster with it, then that's just lame. If I would race with the mouse from now on, I'll never have as much fun as now, and that's what's important!

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

Let's see if/what CTRA will do about it.

Why should they do anything?

simlpy question:

do you think, when clutch button will be removed, that pecholobo (who is also using it) shall have no more world records?

im not sure.

what is closer to simulation? pressing clutch button before shifting or shifting with autoclutch?
should manual clutch be same fast as automatic or should be faster? -> should shifting with paddles be same fast as shifting with H-shifter or with auto gears?

just questions...


about mouse...
i got DFP, i have been using it for 1/2 year, then i returned back to mouse - simple reason - mouse is more accurately (i belive with g25 would be different - better, but atm i have no money as well as time to adopt on it)

Quote from zeugnimod :

Why should they do anything?

A server can force people to use a wheel so you can't use mouse/keyboard/gamepad...

Quote from [d9] :

i got DFP, i have been using it for 1/2 year, then i returned back to mouse - simple reason - mouse is more accurately

Thank you, thread proven...

Quote from CobraDrifter :

A server can force people to use a wheel so you can't use mouse/keyboard/gamepad...

I know. :rolleyes:

I asked why they should/would do that.

I think there must be an Forced Wheel or Forced Mouse or Forced Keyboard Option. They all have different Breakpoint. There are a lot of Crashs off that reason.

I used Axis clutch and H-Shifters and i clutch in some corners from 5. Gear to the 3. Some People crash in me because they dont see anybreaklight more when i took my Foot from the brake and clutch to the third gear, durring the Car continuo breaking. If there only Axis Clutch & H Shifter guys on the Server they have same Break & Shiftpoints.

Thats why i think we need an Option to force the Controller.

translation for you:

accuracy - every cheap wheel users are in disadvantage comparing to G25 users... (in steering precision also comparing to mouse users)
every 900 degrees, H-shifter, clutch pedal users are in disadvantage to 200 degrees, paddles, auto clutch users.



i ofcourse disagree to mouse be removed from lfs

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Thank you, thread proven...

Quote from [d9] :

simlpy question:

do you think, when clutch button will be removed, that pecholobo (who is also using it) shall have no more world records?

im not sure.

Yes, if he wants a wr, he'll have to set one with the same limits that everyone else has. Not by using a hack that gives a 0.5-1.0 second advantage pr. lap. It seems like most of the community realizes that using such a hack is bad, except for the Spanish, who happily do whatever they can to be the fastest. Are they retards or what? It's really fun to have spent a lot of time and effort setting a wr, and have someone come along using button clutch script, AND using your setup without permission, beat it without breaking a sweat. And it's pretty much impossible to challenge it unless you use the same hack. To be honest, I'm getting sick of it and it has ruined the fun I had hotlapping.

Bye the Way I config the Lfs Lapper to force Wheel, force Swapside, force Axis clutch, force H-shifters. Disable Mouse, disable Keyboard, disable Break help, disable Autoclutch.

It checks the controller of the Player when he connect or leave the Pit.
No Wheel, No Axis Clutch, NO H-Shifters, NO Swapside --> Spectating.

But the problem is its possible to change the Controller during a Race .

Maybee someone now how we can calibrate the Lapper that they check every Minute the controllers not only on Connecting or Pitting.

Here is the my Lfs Lapper Cfg.

please tell me more about this hack?
maybe explain me the "hack" word?

Quote from arco :

Yes, if he wants a wr, he'll have to set one with the same limits that everyone else has. Not by using a hack that gives a 0.5-1.0 second advantage pr. lap. It seems like most of the community realizes that using such a hack is bad, except for the Spanish, who happily do whatever they can to be the fastest. Are they retards or what? It's really fun to have spent a lot of time and effort setting a wr, and have someone come along using button clutch script, AND using your setup without permission, beat it without breaking a sweat. And it's pretty much impossible to challenge it unless you use the same hack. To be honest, I'm getting sick of it and it has ruined the fun I had hotlapping.

Quote from [d9] :

please tell me more about this hack?
maybe explain me the "hack" word?

It gives you a blazingly fast clutch, twice as fast as normal clutch.

Quote from arco :

It gives you a blazingly fast clutch, twice as fast as normal clutch.

So that's it, i've been wondering why my XFR/So lon rev PB went from 3rd place on HL charts to third page with all those spaniards!! :thumbsdow Great one, keep on removing the "unrealistic" options like digital speedo while having this kind of stuff happening

That table seems normal to me...the problem is when you see a uber time done with Manual Clutch.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

So that's it, i've been wondering why my XFR/So lon rev PB went from 3rd place on HL charts to third page with all those spaniards!! :thumbsdow Great one, keep on removing the "unrealistic" options like digital speedo while having this kind of stuff happening

:jester: Exactly !!! Make other stuff real first as the digital speedo.

Quote from arco :

It gives you a blazingly fast clutch, twice as fast as normal clutch.

i agree,
but these things - button clutch and logitech profiller scripts are legal "features" of lfs and wheel drivers, so i cant see any hacks there. same with outgauge port of lfs and digital speedo...
i prefer maybe a "cheat" word in case of scripts - so maybe the only right thing is report THE cheater to devs?

and i also agree about losing of fun of hotlapping when someone better is there

Not sure if you can compare a "digital speedometer" to a script written to perform artificially unrealistic shifts. I consider any such script to be a cheat - whether its legal in the devs minds or not. That's just my opinion. I don't think there's any way to prove that someone is using a script. Even if button clutch was removed, it seems just as easy to write a script to use axis clutch (?).

Back to the mouse issue...
I think it all comes down to practice. If you practice with mouse until you've achieved near perfection you're always going to be faster with mouse unless you put in the same effort with a wheel. The fact that mouse users can achieve equal or better times without being able to trail brake, left foot brake, heal-toe, etc. makes the sim look a bit silly to be honest

Quote from Technique :

Not sure if you can compare a "digital speedometer" to a script written to perform artificially unrealistic shifts.

in my (hardcore demo) hotlapping times with xrt i used digital speedo to decide about my braking points...
now, when i cant see my incomming_into_corner speed in precision of +-1kph i cant decide about the right braking point... (we talking about hotlapping to world records)
thats all.
everyone using digital speedo is in advantage of atrificialy unrealistic precise braking points to me in this point of view