Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Worse than no demo and $20 for a one month trial?

Well, it is not a demo anymore when you pay for it. As far as I can see, there is no mention of demo yet. That 20$ trial is one month fee, not a demo in any meaning

Offline demo has its negative sides too. The iracing say they want to build a community and online racing is essential part of that. Like with LFS, an offline demo is not something that gives good presentation of the whole product.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Imho sim racing is still dirt cheap if you compare it to any other hobby.

Dogging is much cheaper... Almost free.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Paying extra for new tracks and cars is super ridiculous too.

Funny, since that's basically the LFS business model. We don't have pay for anything else!

I totally don't understand the subscription model. MMOs needs subscriptions to fund the massive servers. What are iRacing offering for all this cash they want?

Quote from Hyperactive :

The main thing is how good the sim is. It is based on nascar2003 (?) and if the rumours are true it is not really a revolutionary... But with current sims, you don't need anything revolutionary to be better than anything else. LFS physics, better cars and real tracks would be a killer combo already. Just add some realism features and it is a revolutionary!

Well they did say somewhere that its not based on Nascar2003, they did buy the codebase and use it to start, but I am sure that was a move mainly for the net code and a giant boost to get the game running. I am also sure since its been like 3 years in development that they have rewritten all or at least most of that code. Also thats the reason it is so darn expensive. I don't know how long it has been in development but I started watching it a year and a half ago and it seemed like it had been a while at that point.

The price may be high, but so is the price of getting VERY accurate track data and car data. I don't think I am willing to pay monthly for a game - its kept me away from tons of others. But it really isn't too bad of a price. Instead of buying that delivered pizza each month your paying for the game - assuming it really is as good as it should be. That doesn't mean I'll be the first to try it, heck I'd go with the boycott, and LFS is much cheaper with free updates (for the most part). I am waiting to hear the news on how well it plays...

Looking at the site and what they are doing I think the pricing is intentional to ensure that only folk that are serious actually take part. If you look at their proposed costing they think that the average monthly cost will be $19 per month over 3 years - including additional content. If that was the case then clearly you can no longer look at it as a game, you join with a very specific idea of the cars and tracks you want to drive and do only those combos until you are good at them. It might be the case that you wouldn't even take a subscription until you knew that there was a 'season' of racing that you were interested in. I don't really think they are interested in the single player component at all. They don't describe the cost as being a purchase of the sim either, it is a service agreement. I'd be interested to see if it manages to keep the wreckers away, I suspect not but it'd be nice to think that at that cost everyone was treating it as it should be.

Quote from yegadoyai :

I'd be interested to see if it manages to keep the wreckers away, I suspect not but it'd be nice to think that at that cost everyone was treating it as it should be.

Maybe... but in pretty much every other walk of life, "pay to play" has a negative connotation. Think about bands who pay the venue to perform: everyone knows this is arse upwards and everyone knows that those who indulge the practice are suffering a surfeit of vanity.

They're going to have to really blow some minds to change that perspective.

Quote from bozo :

Crazy business model, but they've obviously done their research and believe there is a market at that price.

Some people may be willing to pay $156 for every year they play the game, plus paying for additional content. Quite how they expect to build a viable online community at that price I do not know. Their target appears to be the American market, and I don't think there will be much traction elsewhere.

On Wikipedia there is a good article comparing the different racing simulators, including Nascar 2003 and LFS. I'm sure we'll see whether there has been much improvement on Nascar 2003 once iracing has eventually launched and this article has been updated, rather paying $20 for the pleasure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

That article could do with updating, surely now LFS has michelin and Avon tyres they get data from those manufacturers?

No. They're just textures for the sidewalls.

Quote from DeKo :

That article could do with updating, surely now LFS has michelin and Avon tyres they get data from those manufacturers?

As Android says, no. But I do have some data on F3 tyres from Avon that I attached a while ago to something else which may or may not help validating tyre models.

I challenge Android to two things:

1. Find the attachement
2. Compare the data within to LFS tyres in all respects! Bet you can't

Finding the attachment? Easy.

Comparing the data? Oh screw you
We don't even have comparable tyres to the ones Avon used in their tests, and the test data, from what I can remember, doesn't exactly extend to interesting extremes (higher slip angles, ...) which would be useful for general statements about tyre behaviour. But I'm pretty sure LFS would be off in quite a few points if you create a tyre with similar specs.

Pansy

Stop bickering about smth I don't understand and let's put down those guys from iRobyou.com some more...

I see iRacing is quite popular here..

If, and only if the physics are really what they should be, i.e. miles ahead of anything else, then 13 a month is almost free. If that provides you with a few hours a week of simracing of a high standard, its incredibly affordable.

But the if is big, it must not be n2003.5 of course. Then again they wouldn't have needed 5 years to make some new cars and tracks for N2003... There is a good chance its core is very different.

Thats a BIG IF

EDIT: Didn't see you already mentioned it was a big if ; / although my original point stands!

Yeah, the physics need to be absolutely phenomenal. Even then getting the player numbers up is going to be quite a task, especially if the additional content is distributed on a pay-per-item basis, which separates the haves from the have-nots even more.

Graphics look awful so far, cars are very much like toys...

The physics would have to be very good in a LFSer's opinion for me to do the 1 month trial I'm curious though, not predicting any succes for it anyway. We'll see.

Quote from AndroidXP :

getting the player numbers up is going to be quite a task, especially if the additional content is distributed on a pay-per-item basis, which separates the haves from the have-nots even more.

They need more launch content before I put any money their way. The car selection is dire at the moment, and it would be nice to see some big-name circuits rather than a comprehensive list of every stretch of tarmac in the USA.

Quote from blackbird04217 :

Thats a BIG IF

EDIT: Didn't see you already mentioned it was a big if ; / although my original point stands!

Quote from iRacing :

We expect to appeal to racers of all types, including all skill levels and budgets

Does this mean the original package includes only slow cars or it means it's not a very good simulator (it's more arcadeish)

That brings up the question if their definition of "racers" includes sim racers, too

The only thing that draws me to this game are the SK modifieds, I'd be willing to pay for a month to get to mess around with them but long term I think I'll stick with LFS.

Quote from AndroidXP :

That brings up the question if their definition of "racers" includes sim racers, too

It better, since that's apparently who they're aiming at

I'd like it for the XV8Rs and the 40s Ford Coupes. I've been asking for an old-school 32 Ford Coupe-style car for LFS for ages now (check the relevant thread if you don't believe me!). High COG, FR competitor for the UF1 with an easy upgrade to a GTR by making it into a modded hotrod. Lovely

Wow, dats expensive, they must have some H'uuuge debts to cover.

Why would anyone want to subscribe to something like that and pay $156 dollars per year when you can get almost the same for a one off payment of £24 from LFS. a tenner for N2003 (UK price) and a fiver for GPL.

If they're selling this as online only, how can they possibly hope to guarantee the number of online racers to justify the price ? Look at LFS and the numbers of complaints we get about the empty servers and small fields, and LFS is only 24 quid.

It's a shame coz you'd have to be a real tool to screw up the Papy engine, and with 'X'yrs of development by iRacing i'd imagine it's nigh on perfect now.

I might give the month trial a blast, but this thing will have to be more addictive than crack cocaine to make me wanna sign up for a full year.

Meh, it's not that big a deal if it's what it claims to be, so there's no point in whining about the price without trying it!

I'll gladly drop 20 measly bucks to have at it for a month and see what it's all about. $13/mo really isn't anything to get worked up about; eat a couple less burgers a month and you'll break even, seriously.

And ATC I pay for WoW already, and I also happen to leave my house a lot - work, church, weightlifting, taking the boys out cycling / sleding, treating the missus to plays etc, so shove your stereotype where it belongs, with more crap.

All that said, IF (there's that if again) it really is as great as advertized - and that remains to be seen - it's worth it and it's really not that much money anyway. Time will tell.

The thing is that subscription games like WoW work because the entirety of the game is in the online experience. Racing sims are somewhat like that, but in the end, you can always have a trackday on your own. If the content you've paid for in a racing sim no longer works when you've stopped subscribing, I can't see many people biting.

I think someone mentioned earlier that if they provide official servers and marshalls for them then the subscription would make sense. That would be more like WoW then because you are paying for the servers and staff each month.

The lack of European tracks is probably down to the cost of actually using their laser machine thing, better to do the tracks they know in the US first then wait for the cash to start flowing.

My conditions on paying that much would be...

1. Bug free gaming
2. Near perfect net code and collisions
3. Physics at least as good as LFS
4. Low system requirements
5. Support for gamepad users and mouse users (auto clutch)
6. Mechanical failures
7. Pit strategy organiser
8. Realistic car damage
9. Weather effects
10. Dynamic track grip
11. Plenty of content as standard, more than LFS
12. A strong community of nice people
13. Good leagues and ranking systems
14. Regular improvements and content
15. Dirty cars, longer you race more dirt your car gets, or if you go offroad.
16. Official game servers and admins
17. Plenty of user statistics, something to rival LFS World

Thats all I can think of for now, and with the price they are charging those are not unfair conditions.