The online racing simulator
Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
I honestly hate the fact that people can steal, for instance, your setup and it doesn't matter if it's any good or not (the setup itself), in the end, that very person had the intention to receive it in a dishonest way. It doesn't just affect the racing scene, it also affects the drift scene. Setup stealing in general ruins the whole meaning for even making one and it eventually demotivates the drivers as well.
Quote :Loads of people are not affiliated with LFS (online) anymore but still have commentary on those who actually do. Extremely weird behavior. Go mind your own business I would say?

Not being currently active is not necessarily an affirmed statement of not coming back.

I have not played LFS in quite a while (actually I did knock up a skin and do some AI racing today, not very well on account of using keyboard...).

But that does not mean I have quit LFS. I'll be quite happy to race again when there's some fresh content and new challenges.

Does that mean my opinion should carry no weight?
IMO everyone who has bought LFS can state an opinion. Doesn't matte rif he/she isn't playing anymore. It only helps them getting back if their opinion is getting heard and considered
I wouldn't say none but yes a lot less yeah. An active community with people around saying "oh yes, I'm going to rejoin IF" ... I'm sorry but I've seen that 5 billion times now, most of the time nothing happens.

Compare it to a soccer team. Most fans are only fan during the good days when the team wins every match, famous for success, pay entry tickets, full stadiums, everything... But when it's performing not so great all of a sudden those people are gone, only giving opinions about this and that needs to happen before I come back. Well sorry, the fans who are left behind don't care that much about bad supporters.
Quote from PeterN :There's already wind which affects your speed. I believe the direction is varied on race start.

Yeah, put high wind for league racing. IMO that changes very much. Setupmakers-PROdrivers??
Quote from cargame.nl :Actually you don't indeed. Loads of people are not affiliated with LFS (online) anymore but still have commentary on those who actually do. Extremely weird behavior. Go mind your own business I would say?

Not surprised by a comment like this, seeing the recent muck you post. I won't imply I know everything about league racing, but I sure do know a few things. I know all of you elitists always think you know everything, but no need to talk like that to 'outstanders'. TIL I am no longer affiliated with LFS anymore.
Quote from CodeLyoko1 :IMO everyone who has bought LFS can state an opinion. Doesn't matte rif he/she isn't playing anymore. It only helps them getting back if their opinion is getting heard and considered

That ^. @Cargame: Oh, and you joined LFSForum in 2009, so you have no idea what you're talking about. Go mind your own business. /s
Quote from cargame.nl :What 'we', talk for yourself please.

You really think setup stealing is more important to everyone in general than setup stealing? Really?
Quote from Matrixi :If anything, the inflatuated egos are originating from people who aren't willing to share setups. I'd understand the unwillingness a bit better if this was real racing where actual money and fame is involved, but this is sim racing where friendlyness gets you further and results in more fun than being uptight.

See, this is where we will differ. This discussion was already on the iRacing forum and the same type of people emerged (not putting you in this group). Personally, I've seen plenty of people willing to share setups who do leagues, but they don't send exactly what they race. Instead they send something that is a bit more of a base setup. Something that the individual can adjust to their preference. I don't see the issue with that. Should we expect people to willingly share their skins as well? I hope not.

But to me the ego comes from people who believe they will be much better with others' setups, or that everyone having their setup still won't allow for others to beat that individual. Both types of people have been in this thread.

Quote :
I fail to see how "arcade" comes in to play with this discussion. There are real life racing series with bog standard cars or with fixed setups. Setupfield also makes your argument for competetive hotlapping and not sharing setups a bit shaky one.

I'm using "arcade" to describe how some people want individual's setups to be public. Whether we have a choice or not, that is something I'd expect from an arcade or simcade game. If it is a racing simulator, then you should be simulated real racing, where the access to everyone's setups aren't exactly possible.

Setupfield doesn't affect hotlapping or league racing in the slightest, unless someone was posting their WR setups. Some of the setups could be competitive, but those people posted their setups on their own, which isn't an issue anyone has.

Quote :League racing. Serious business. No fun allowed.

Some people get fun from the increase in competition, some don't.
Quote from PMD9409 :Personally, I've seen plenty of people willing to share setups who do leagues, but they don't send exactly what they race. Instead they send something that is a bit more of a base setup. Something that the individual can adjust to their preference. I don't see the issue with that.

That sounds good! I'd still prefer a more open policy (not enforced) but hey, atleast that's a compromise that works.

Quote from PMD9409 :Should we expect people to willingly share their skins as well? I hope not.

I thought about the whole private/team skins thing before and I can kinda see your angle regarding private setups from that standpoint. I've created a few team skins throughout the years and it did hurt a bit to see them being ripped from the DDS folder and used by non-members. Atleast those people were easy to identify and ban if they didn't listen to reason, stolen setups can't be identified that easily.

A car setup doesn't have a teams name and website plastered all over it either, so they don't compare in that regard.

Quote from PMD9409 :If it is a racing simulator, then you should be simulated real racing, where the access to everyone's setups aren't exactly possible.

Setupfield doesn't affect hotlapping or league racing in the slightest, unless someone was posting their WR setups. Some of the setups could be competitive, but those people posted their setups on their own, which isn't an issue anyone has.

That's the thing, setup theft will be possible, now and always. It can be made more difficult for the hackers with barriers and tricks, but eventually they will get through. That's the nature of programs running on computers.

I completely disagree about Setupfield though. Downloading sets from there in the 05-06 days when I was hotlapping like mad helped a ton. The sets at Setupfield were pretty fresh WR sets, which I then improved and learned all about setups in general. Have people stopped uploading actually used WR sets since then?
This setup discussion has basically just trailed off back into an ego thing, a want what you can't have thing, a separation complex thing.

In brief my main point is.
Car setup won't make you faster if you weren't part of the development of the setup.
Your driving wont improve if your car setup doesn't come along on the progression with you.
Wanting a set because you heard it was fast and you wanna be faster by having the "right" car doesn't show a whole lot of dignity or self respect.
That's it, no ego thing, no fear of someone being better than you with your own set, no separation from "all muh hard werk".

it's about the progress of an independent driver with a mind locked on going faster due to their own hard work, not being handed something because it worked for the last guy.
Quote from Matrixi :I thought about the whole private/team skins thing before and I can kinda see your angle regarding private setups from that standpoint. I've created a few team skins throughout the years and it did hurt a bit to see them being ripped from the DDS folder and used by non-members. Atleast those people were easy to identify and ban if they didn't listen to reason, stolen setups can't be identified that easily.

A car setup doesn't have a teams name and website plastered all over it either, so they don't compare in that regard.

In the end, whether it be skins or setups, both shouldn't be open for others to use. They both include a team or an individual's hard work, and if they choose to keep it private, then we should respect that.

Quote :
That's the thing, setup theft will be possible, now and always. It can be made more difficult for the hackers with barriers and tricks, but eventually they will get through. That's the nature of programs running on computers.

I completely disagree about Setupfield though. Downloading sets from there in the 05-06 days when I was hotlapping like mad helped a ton. The sets at Setupfield were pretty fresh WR sets, which I then improved and learned all about setups in general. Have people stopped uploading actually used WR sets since then?

I'd take what we have over the open policy that is being suggested. Obviously I'd like for some change in encryption or something to prevent hackers for however long until they produce something again. Reading Scawen's comments it shows that is probably not going to happen, or won't at least give us any benefit. Therefore, people suddenly want everyone's setup folders to be open to all. I don't see how anyone sees that as a solution.

For the Setupfield bit, I always enjoyed loading it up back in 06/07, grabbing setups and hoping they work for me. I remember being in the TBO servers and if track changed I'd hop on there and try to find the most competitive one for the next track. While I could download the hotlap sets and get within a half a second or so of WRs, it still wouldn't be enough. It was rare someone would post their WR setup, more likely they posted a setup that was actually really good and just suited someone else better.
this thread is absolutely disgusting
Quote from PMD9409 :In the end, whether it be skins or setups, both shouldn't be open for others to use. They both include a team or an individual's hard work, and if they choose to keep it private, then we should respect that.

I'd take what we have over the open policy that is being suggested. Obviously I'd like for some change in encryption or something to prevent hackers for however long until they produce something again. Reading Scawen's comments it shows that is probably not going to happen, or won't at least give us any benefit. Therefore, people suddenly want everyone's setup folders to be open to all. I don't see how anyone sees that as a solution.

Yup, forced sharing definitely isn't the right way to do things, neither with skins or setups. That much I've agreed from since the beginning.

Quote from PMD9409 :For the Setupfield bit, I always enjoyed loading it up back in 06/07, grabbing setups and hoping they work for me. I remember being in the TBO servers and if track changed I'd hop on there and try to find the most competitive one for the next track. While I could download the hotlap sets and get within a half a second or so of WRs, it still wouldn't be enough. It was rare someone would post their WR setup, more likely they posted a setup that was actually really good and just suited someone else better.

The biggest issue with those sets was that majority of them were only useful for a few lap stints and then the tires were completely shot. Modifying the sets in the way that they lasted long enough to finish a race and still be quick was a good compromise practice.

Ann-nyyway, I think I've put out all my thoughts on the setup matter. I was a bit too sleep deprived when I wrote my posts earlier in the morning and could have stated things a bit more level headed.

So, how about some more Westhill teaser screenshots? Hmm? Hmm?
My bad for posting at 3:45 in the morning.

I'd like just a sky-shot personally. Mainly want to see the final corner and T1/2 for if anything has changed.
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(UnknownMaster21) DELETED by UnknownMaster21 : Wrong Section, not anymore needed
Quote from Matrixi :
Quote from PMD9409 :Personally, I've seen plenty of people willing to share setups who do leagues, but they don't send exactly what they race. Instead they send something that is a bit more of a base setup. Something that the individual can adjust to their preference. I don't see the issue with that.

That sounds good! I'd still prefer a more open policy (not enforced) but hey, atleast that's a compromise that works.

Indeed, back in the day, I would prefer a general set rather than a different set for AS3 and AS3R, f.e.. The set and it's familiarity, behaviour and predictability was more important than the last 0,1s-1s of WR laptime.

Still, I am in debt to many setsharers of my current LFSW and pre-LFSW rankings. (I prolly should name names, but I don't remember the names I met in person last week :facepalm

I confess (ages and ages ago), when I found out the sets were unencrypted and somewhat easy to steal for a ½:nerd:, I borrowed some sets from the WR BL1/XRT replays . Incidentally, from the same people, that would later share their set if one would ask on a server after loosing to them.

Quote from PMD9409 :If you want equal opportunities, then ask for fixed setup server ability

I have petitioned for fixedset, mandatory cockpit view and manual shifter and clutch option for server admins since this forum was in RSC. I gather that this wasn't that much popular request, so, we don't have it now or the foreseeable future.

Quote from PMD9409 :For public racing, sure be as arcade as you want

Are chess, rubik's cube, etc, -championships 'arcade'?

Is it not the most penultimate race when everybody races on level playing field/track (In LFS's case, par PC/HW-specs and ISP performance)? If you and your possibly salaried[best|worst example] personnel, associates or friends can setup your car, predict or guess the weather or other racer's race strategy do you really count that as individual racedriver's skill?

If for one particular track the default LFS's set is absolutely wrong for that track, do you really hold it against it those that can't properly setup their car? I can't setup my car beyond aero and gears if my money depended on it. But could reach within 1s of BL1/XRT WR with a donated set back in the day.
to win a race in reality you don't only need driver skills. If motorsport was only about driving skills it would be boring for 95% of the people working on it.

To win a race in reality, you need to build/buy a new car thanks to a god engineering crew, good mechanics that prepare a good and reliable car, you need good race engineer that set up the car well and get a good strategy especially when it comes to endurance racing and finally you need good drivers to finish the work I would say. In real life you need all of that, the best driver can't win a race in the worst team and the worst driver can't win a race in the best team. Winning a race for me is all about that, not only driver skills.

In LFS I guess if ppl are trying to build teams and get it racing into some leagues that's to sort of make it the same way. So yes team set up and the team strategy that often comes with it is quite important which is exactly the reason why it hurts LFS leagues.

Then like in reality that comes to teams/drivers to share their set. Personally I nearly always shared my set even when I was in spdo or E-Team to teams that needed some helps. Sometimes not my best for one particular combo, but at least some really good basis. I spent also some times explaining things to people so they can understand what changing the rollbar involves and why it makes the handling better or worse, and to be honest I'm quite enjoying that role.

The thing is, ask for setup, ask for tips, don't steal.
Quote from Krane :Are chess, rubik's cube, etc, -championships 'arcade'?

Wouldn't that be a "fixed setup" environment? Wouldn't pertain to this situation.

I just want to reiterate the only thing that I'm against is making all setups open to public.
Out of interest, what's in a setup file that requires them to be bundled in with the replay? If LFS just used a default setup for each car, what difference would we see when watching a replay after the MCI data had done its thing?
Quote from PMD9409 :Wouldn't that be a "fixed setup" environment? Wouldn't pertain to this situation.

I just want to reiterate the only thing that I'm against is making all setups open to public.

I might have lost 'The Situation' (blame my sister for knowing the tern).

I'm against mandatory anything, the 'Vox populi' should mandate the default. Although in the cases where the populi are blithering idiots, ignore them.

In Netkar v.Whatever you had to drive a borken Fiat Whatever to pits while it RAPED your wheel FFB motor and/or cogs, in single player practice mode. That is seriously favouring realism instead of (a racer) user experience.

Currently in AC you only need stop in multiplayer to be able to 'ESC', It's all fine and dandy while you are NOT falling into nothingness @~600MPH. Just wait while AC.exe crashes or forcibly quit it through taskmanager,.
Okay so there is a huge argument about having 'mandatory setup share' people want the option where as other don't, here's a bit of bad Photoshopping, basically just an idea, one of mine if anything..

Picture one : Having an 'Setup share' option in your main lfs options giving the account holder the choice whether to share the set with other players in-game or not, turning this option on will allow other players who are in the server to download the set.

Picture two : Another bad photoshopped picture with what the interface 'Could' look like if the devs decide to sort the setup sharing problem out, as i said this is just a quick photoshop and an idea, but i think something like this would half settle the problem if not solve it completely, because at least then if someone wants to have a certain set they can download it in the connection list..
Attached images
1.JPG
2.JPG
Pearce it's a nice concept, but the variables really prove it wrong.
the people that would set their share option to "share" are the same people that would just say yes if someone asked them in LFS as it is now and vice versa.
it's a very very minute change, it only really removes asking.
I do think we should look into preventing it if possible. Although I'd share a set-up (and did today before the Ky500 with a competitor) I understand those who do not like to. They put in the effort to make the set-up and have an advantage. Taking that advantage from them discourages working to obtain it.

I think the best solution to it in truth is dynamic track conditions (rubber, marbles, weather, track temperature, ect.) A "better" set-up will only be better in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions are constant in today's LFS. Beyond this it would make LFS more of a challenge and every lap unlike the one before it. This leads to more people racing more often, larger league races and events, (the snowball keeps rolling from there)
Quote from Scawen :As some people pointed out, it can't be made impossible. Your LFS.exe must decrypt a setup and hackers can figure that out. Setups in replays are already encrypted but as LFS can read them, hackers can read them too. It would be nice to make setups impossible to read and LFS licensed content impossible to crack but unfortunately that is not possible.

IMO the best way to prevent setup stealing from replays is just not to store them in there. As I understand, the setups are needed for interpolating the vehicle's dynamic values between the samples stored in the mpr file. I remember the sample frequency being 10 Hz for multiplayer replays. Increasing this slightly to, e.g. 50 Hz, and use a linear interpolation might help there. Just my 2 cents...
Right lets just stop one misquote: if you go back to page one and read my post its not about me or anyone wanting a mandatory setup share: it was an idea proposed as a solution to the problem of setup theft as a catalyst for changing the culture toward a more open and giving community.

It has been considered and loudly rejected - (by a few people posting very passionately about how amazing their sets are).

What is needed is not more discussion of that idea, but more ideas.

Short of changing what is sent to a calculated affect rather than the source numbers I don't know what to suggest to protect both of your works.

It's a shame, it's much easier to steal some of this in RL than it is in LFS, and being a driver simulation all this talk of team development of sets is a bit depressing - furthering the idea that LFS should be stale and repeatable.

Perhaps the only real fix is something I've desired since I first played this sim: dynamic environments - adjust your set as each session unfolds to match changing conditions. Then we can be done with this whole rinse repeat perfet lap syndrome and all the epic sets won't work anymore.

Or: what if - this is just a suggestion - but when the new physics come out alleges will be worthless - maybe that's the time to introduce always on sharing? Would the guys who objected last time be won over by having nothing to loose.

It'll make you a deal - reject these ideas by all means, but if you do reject them, and if you propose no alternative workable solution, then never moan about set stealing again.

Ps: written in bed, on an iPhone, slightly grumpy after being awoken. (Seems to be the trend in this thread. - glad to have kept the tradition going)
Quote from NeverEatYellowSnow :IMO the best way to prevent setup stealing from replays is just not to store them in there.

True but if you remove or block/limit this the attention shifts to extracting the information from LFS internal memory. For some reason every connected client needs to know everyones setup also during normal racing, maybe to predict other cars behavior better.

I have to agree with Cornys, if LFS would have more dynamic track conditions the importance of setups probably would be less.
Quote from Becky Rose :
It has been considered and loudly rejected - (by a few people posting very passionately about how amazing their sets are).

What is needed is not more discussion of that idea, but more ideas.

I can understand the loud rejection...I too would much rather it would be the choice of the user whether to share a set or not...

If it can not be that way then surely it is fairer that everyone shares...not just the select few (*)?

I do not see how there could be other ideas, there can be add-ons or variables..eg- wait for different physics/conditions/implementing an option to share/download notification/etc..

(*)- "select few" referring to people that have a tool to get any set up...and also those people that receive sets from the "select few"..and people that receive sets from those that received sets from...etc...

Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
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