The online racing simulator
Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
Quote from bishtop :and where did the set you use originate from,someone else i bet !
Granted you may have altered to your liking but and style

Many use someone elses setup as a base to work from

And who uploaded that original set? Oh right, the guy who made the set. And why did he upload it? Because he didn't mind sharing tens of thousands of people. But that's not the case with everyone else. Maybe it is time to get out of your bubble and understand that not everyone shares your ideals. Just because you don't mind sharing your work does not mean others don't either. And I'm not saying I'm against sharing. I'm just saying that those who choose not to share should have the right to do so. Whether it is a few numbers in a text file, an Oreo cookie or 32 billion dollars, stealing/copying other people's work is wrong. That is something you should've learned in kindergarten.
Quote from GenesisX :Whether it is a few numbers in a text file, an Oreo cookie or 32 billion dollars, stealing/copying other people's work is wrong.

False equivalence is false.

Stealing an Oreo or some amount of currency deprives someone else of same. This is not the case with information.
Quote from Forbin :False equivalence is false.

Stealing an Oreo or some amount of currency deprives someone else of same. This is not the case with information.

why not? It's usual to get paid for good information. If somebody just copies it from you, it deprives you from the benefits you could have maybe got.
Quote from Ped7g :why not? It's usual to get paid for good information. If somebody just copies it from you, it deprives you from the benefits you could have maybe got.

How much do you think an LFS setup is worth?

It's absurd to suggest one could profit in any meaningful way by selling a setup instead of just giving it away.
Quote from Forbin :False equivalence is false.

Stealing an Oreo or some amount of currency deprives someone else of same. This is not the case with information.

It does. It deprives them of a potential win that they could've had if you didn't STEAL their setup. According to you, stealing trade secrets, or plagiarizing publications and papers is fine. It's ONLY information.
Only people who never spent hours or days trying to get a setup running as good as they imagined on the sheets approve the stealing of setups. I see that LFS is not an eSport and is not profitable in any ways, but do you think people sticked here for money? Accomplishment, knowing that something you created works and you achieve something with it is one of the best feelings and someone who steals it all by 2 clicks and might run you short on your goals by doing so... that's something I would want to avoid.
Quote from Kristi :Only people who never spent hours or days trying to get a setup running as good as they imagined on the sheets approve the stealing of setups.

I beg to differ.

Quote from Kristi :I see that LFS is not an eSport and is not profitable in any ways, but do you think people sticked here for money? Accomplishment, knowing that something you created works and you achieve something with it is one of the best feelings and someone who steals it all by 2 clicks and might run you short on your goals by doing so... that's something I would want to avoid.

Quote from GenesisX :It does. It deprives them of a potential win that they could've had if you didn't STEAL their setup.

You're both ignoring how personal setups are.

If someone beats you on track, regardless of whether they have your setup or not, regardless of whether you have their setup or not, you're simply not as good on track as them. Deal with it.
Quote from Racer X NZ :
Dynamic weather, track etc will be the best solution for this, changing conditions make setup a lottery so there's a better fix than chasing your tail to lock down the program.

I think this is the first Racer X post I'm 100% in agreement with.

Realistic changing course conditions will require teams to change their setups in real time (as much as is realistically possible, of course) and the ones that can adapt best will have the best success. I'm not just talking about rain and wind, either... track temp, "greenness," and marbles will all play a role, too.

But that won't fix everything. The fundamental argument is pretty simple: if everyone has access to everyone else's setups, all LFS racing is spec series racing. Spec series produce excellent competition, but not everyone wants that kind of competition. I feel very strongly that we should have the option to protect our own "car development" (such as it is, given LFS's limitations) and eke out every bit of competitive advantage we can via setup or whatever other means.

I think that's vital to the success of any game that aims to be a true racing simulation, and I want to really strongly encourage Scawen to come up with a way to ensure setups can't be stolen.
Setup stealing is cheating.
How can there even be discussion of that?
If someone stole a setup and fails to take advantage of it, that means he ist still a cheater. Just a bad one. It is possible to be a bad driver and a cheater at same time

Quote : Stealing an Oreo or some amount of currency deprives someone else of same. This is not the case with information.

Have you ever played a cards game?
Think what happens if players try to spy onto each others cards.
The point is that even though information can not be "stolen", only "copied", it can still lose its value.

And with regard to those who demand a (stronger) protection against such cheat:
There already is a protection.
Problem is that it was cracked. And any new protection can likely be cracked again.
Even large multi-million-dollar companies are unable to protect their movies/games against copying or cheats.
The strongest protection against cheats is morals.
Quote from Gutholz :Have you ever played a cards game? Think what happens if players try to spy onto each others cards.

Again with the false equivalence.

Card games by their nature rely upon deception and obfuscation as a game mechanic. Not so much with racing. You can know everything your opponent can and will do and still lose handily.
Quote from Forbin :Card games by their nature rely upon deception and obfuscation as a game mechanic. Not so much with racing. You can know everything your opponent can and will do and still lose handily.

Tell that to F1 teams. Sure, drivers make a big difference, but they still hide what they're doing in the garage.
All games/competetions relay on information, some more some less.
In chess both players can see the complete board and yet a mind-reading magican who can predict your moves would be a hard opponent.

Quote from Forbin :Not so much with racing. You can know everything your opponent can and will do and still lose handily.

If that knowledge is accquired by cracking protections then you are a cheater.
If you cheated and lost, you are still a cheater. Not sure how that changes anything?
That is what I meant by:
Quote : If someone stole a setup and fails to take advantage of it, that means he ist still a cheater. Just a bad one.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :Tell that to F1 teams. Sure, drivers make a big difference, but they still hide what they're doing in the garage.

You really think they're hiding their spring and damper rates? There are far more critical things to hide on an F1 car that have nothing to do with setup and everything to do with the car's inherent performance.
Quote from Gutholz :All games/competetions relay on information, some more some less.
In chess both players can see the complete board and yet a mind-reading magican who can predict your moves would be a hard opponent.

Again, false equivalence. No one is reading a driver's mind on the track, although one can make accurate predictions based upon logic. Even if you could read their mind, you'd still need the skills out-drive them in order to win.
Quote from Forbin :You really think they're hiding their spring and damper rates? There are far more critical things to hide on an F1 car that have nothing to do with setup and everything to do with the car's inherent performance.

They're hiding every damn thing they can, and trying to preserve every advantage they can. That's what racers/race teams do.
Well,Ben,there's your leak!
Quote from DeadWolfBones :They're hiding every damn thing they can, and trying to preserve every advantage they can. That's what racers/race teams do.

That was not my experience with motorbike club racing. You could go up to someone's bike and start checking it out and the rider may even tell you everything about it. They know if you beat them, you're simply a better rider.

I suspect Tristan may have a similar story, with the exception of one particular arrogant driver.
Quote from Forbin :That was not my experience with motorbike club racing. You could go up to someone's bike and start checking it out and the rider may even tell you everything about it. They know if you beat them, you're simply a better rider.

Comparing club level competition to F1 is pretty tenuous.
Quote from GenesisX :And who uploaded that original set? Oh right, the guy who made the set. And why did he upload it? Because he didn't mind sharing tens of thousands of people. But that's not the case with everyone else. Maybe it is time to get out of your bubble and understand that not everyone shares your ideals. Just because you don't mind sharing your work does not mean others don't either. And I'm not saying I'm against sharing. I'm just saying that those who choose not to share should have the right to do so. Whether it is a few numbers in a text file, an Oreo cookie or 32 billion dollars, stealing/copying other people's work is wrong. That is something you should've learned in kindergarten.

lol,you have me in stiches with laughter, Your the one living in bubble,so welcome to the big wide world. Its a game where everyday there is software piracy and and in the real world theres wars happening and people starving and other actual serious things so please dont expect me to see such things as important or of value
Quote from amp88 :Comparing club level competition to F1 is pretty tenuous.

DWB's last sentence is not specific to F1. This may not have been intended, but that's how it reads.
Quote from Forbin :That was not my experience with motorbike club racing. You could go up to someone's bike and start checking it out and the rider may even tell you everything about it. They know if you beat them, you're simply a better rider.

I suspect Tristan may have a similar story, with the exception of one particular arrogant driver.

Club racing and professional racing are very different, just like open server pickup racing and competitive leagues like MoE, etc.
Quote from DeadWolfBones :Tell that to F1 teams. Sure, drivers make a big difference, but they still hide what they're doing in the garage.

Quote from Forbin :You really think they're hiding their spring and damper rates? There are far more critical things to hide on an F1 car that have nothing to do with setup and everything to do with the car's inherent performance.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :They're hiding every damn thing they can, and trying to preserve every advantage they can. That's what racers/race teams do.

Quote from Forbin :That was not my experience with motorbike club racing. You could go up to someone's bike and start checking it out and the rider may even tell you everything about it. They know if you beat them, you're simply a better rider.

Quote from Forbin :DWB's last sentence is not specific to F1. This may not have been intended, but that's how it reads.

It seemed pretty clear to me that he meant at least professional racing teams, including F1.
Quote from amp88 :It seemed pretty clear to me that he meant at least professional racing teams, including F1.

Yeah, exactly. Which is equivalent in LFS terms to organized league racing, particularly top level leagues like OWRL, MoE, GTWS, etc.

(Of course, individuals in LFS—even in top leagues—are more likely to share info with people on other teams than they would be in real life, since there's rarely any money on the line. But the pride/satisfaction involved usually provides strong enough motivation not to share.)

Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
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