The online racing simulator
Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
By the way, making setup stealing impossible would be cool fix for the next patch if it doesn't take too much effort.
Oh yes thats pretty important indeed! [no fun intended]

League racing suffers a lot from setup stealing, lot of ppl just bail out because the fun to have created an unique setup is taken away.
Quote from MonkeyHead :By the way, making setup stealing impossible would be cool fix for the next patch if it doesn't take too much effort.

I've given out my setup ahead of a league race, one I worked quite hard on and was quite possibly the best I had ever created. My primary competitor used it, in addition to many others.

I still won, but in addition to that, I got a close race that was a lot of fun. What's your problem?
Quote from Forbin :I've given out my setup ahead of a league race, one I worked quite hard on and was quite possibly the best I had ever created. My primary competitor used it, in addition to many others.

I still won, but in addition to that, I got a close race that was a lot of fun. What's your problem?

Probably because you wanted to give it out. Not everyone feels like doing that.
Quote from PMD9409 :Probably because you wanted to give it out. Not everyone feels like doing that.

I just don't see the big deal. Setups are often very personal. There is no guarantee one created by a particular driver will suit another driver's style, so it's possible a setup-stealer is just shooting them self in the foot.

Do people really think they gain that much of an advantage from having exclusive, secret setups?

(Side note: This is much the same argument against fixed setups. The fixed setup is likely to favor one particular driver over another, with no recourse for the driver the setup does not suit.)
Quote from MonkeyHead :By the way, making setup stealing impossible would be cool fix for the next patch if it doesn't take too much effort.

Yes and please while we are laughing at kid games, do same for skinz !!!
the drift scene is plagued by skin stealing for years everyone knows it ! and it cant be tolerated anymore.
And oh while we are at it, tag/name stealing should be protected too, because its same as setup, very personnal, ask Flame


LUCKILY, we have some very few people to show the way UP, instead of bottom.

Quote from Forbin :I've given out my setup ahead of a league race, one I worked quite hard on and was quite possibly the best I had ever created. My primary competitor used it, in addition to many others.

I still won, but in addition to that, I got a close race that was a lot of fun. What's your problem?

Thanx you Forbin, as wise at it can be written.
Quote from Forbin :I just don't see the big deal.

You don't, thats great. Others have a different opinion and that shows in decreased LFS activity, its simple as that.

It needs to be addressed, not waved away.

// Which is quite difficult I think.. But.. Maybe there is an intermediate solution that there can be servers where the client is not able to start a replay recording locally. So at least people can train normally with each other again.
While I believe that setups are useless without a driver able to handle it, it is a massive violation of trust and sporting behaviour to do so, so on principle, setups should be secured in such a way that it keeps the sharing system simple, yet breaks the ability to read them.

I think I've heard an alleged part of the reason setup stealing has become such a problem is the length of time since a patch that changed the memory values or whatever so those coders have had time to develop these apps.

No matter what, this issue needs to be resolved or it will really kill leagues. It has harmed the team-based events, as teams can use stint replays to get setups and examine strategies. It kills public practice since you can also get replays from there. That public practice used to be vital to keeping series interest up and helping new teams get some help and see what they might have to do for driving lines etc.
Quote from dekojester :While I believe that setups are useless without a driver able to handle it, it is a massive violation of trust and sporting behaviour to do so, so on principle, setups should be secured in such a way that it keeps the sharing system simple, yet breaks the ability to read them.

I think I've heard an alleged part of the reason setup stealing has become such a problem is the length of time since a patch that changed the memory values or whatever so those coders have had time to develop these apps.

No matter what, this issue needs to be resolved or it will really kill leagues. It has harmed the team-based events, as teams can use stint replays to get setups and examine strategies. It kills public practice since you can also get replays from there. That public practice used to be vital to keeping series interest up and helping new teams get some help and see what they might have to do for driving lines etc.

Good points, as always. I do recall that in the good old days when I was racing in leagues of friends (like OWRL), practice servers would be busy but we shared setups. That has dropped away so little happens publically online, but in some ways this is also due to the obsession with GT endurance racing, as it becomes a team setup rather than a personal one, which makes it more difficult to share.

On the other hand, in real racing teams will examine TV footage, sound analysis, speed data etc to get lots of info on what other teams are doing. Maybe that goes too far in LFS now?
goes too far because u dont see it on TV ? think about it.
And well, we dont need a replay to grab a setup.

Thats spirit of protecting everything, keeping secret blabla things, well THAT is the plague, THAT is making things go slower.
Sharing is faster.
On the note of setup stealing i really feel it's something that should be made impossible.

my XRT setup is something i've been developing in the years since i got my S2 licence.
it's completely perfect for me, countless hours making gear ratio's to allow me to pick a nice torquey rev range on almost every corner in LFS, countless hours making the contact patch of my tires suit the angles i drift at perfectly to heat tires as slowly as possible, countless hours on springs and dampers so that my rear hunkers down and gains traction once sliding, toe, tire pressure, fuel load, you name it, i perfected my set for my style of driving and if anyone just took that from me by saving a replay i'd be very concerned.

i could imagine how other guys would feel about it, guys who have been playing LFS for a lot longer than me doing something far more delicate, racing.
it's dishonest, greedy and disrespectful to just take someones hard work like that just for some fictional advantage you have in your head.

sure, if you wish to share a set, do it. but it shouldn't be possible to just steal one.
Quote from dekojester : reason setup stealing has become such a problem is the length of time since a patch that changed the memory values or whatever so those coders have had time to develop these apps.

It's not related to each other. The LFS client is not even needed to extract setups, its simply stored inside each replay/MPR. Because its needed to let the replay playback function properly it cannot be removed. Encryption also seems pointless, probably doesn't take long before somebody figures out how to crack that.
If people shared setups stealing wouldnt be a problem.

I can recall maybe 10 drivers of the 100+ participating in leagues that share setups.
Quote from Forbin :I just don't see the big deal. Setups are often very personal. There is no guarantee one created by a particular driver will suit another driver's style, so it's possible a setup-stealer is just shooting them self in the foot.

Do people really think they gain that much of an advantage from having exclusive, secret setups?

(Side note: This is much the same argument against fixed setups. The fixed setup is likely to favor one particular driver over another, with no recourse for the driver the setup does not suit.)

Entering a server where you use a mandatory set up is not even related to "set stealing".
If someone does not want to share a set up then they do not want to share...eh?

Of course people have gained advantage from being able to see the exact set up of an opponents car...someone said about recording the sound of the engine and recording all sorts of data...hey in LFS you can have the exact car your opponent is driving without even asking for it..
Quote from cargame.nl :Encryption also seems pointless, probably doesn't take long before somebody figures out how to crack that.

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand cryptography.

"Long" is subjective. All known encryption methods can be broken given sufficient time and processing power. As CPU power increases and time to crack decreases, we just move on to the next harder method (md5 was tremendously ubiquitous, then it was cracked and SHA was adopted in its place).

The reason we do not immediately adopt tremendously complex methods is all encryption and decryption requires CPU time. So, you don't want it to be too fast (too easy to crack), but you also don't want it to be too slow (too impractical).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2
Quote from Anthoop :Of course people have gained advantage from being able to see the exact set up of an opponents car...

Evidence? Even if they did gain an advantage, was it enough to finish ahead of the person/people from which the setup was taken?

Quote from Anthoop :in LFS you can have the exact car your opponent is driving without even asking for it..

You already have the exact same car, just not necessarily the same settings. That's the beauty of sim racing. No (or at least very limited) unfair advantages from funds disparity resulting in objectively superior equipment (e.g. more power).

Even coming from someone who spent hours upon hours making setups over the years, I think you're tremendously overstating the importance of a good setup. It can help, but it's no replacement for good driving/racing skills.

Quote from chanoman315 :If people shared setups stealing wouldnt be a problem.

People did, constantly, many years ago. It seems the culture has changed.
Quote from Forbin :Evidence? Even if they did gain an advantage, was it enough to finish ahead of the person/people from which the setup was taken?

have a look to hotlap chart for example, you will see that very (too) often the WR holder has an exact copy of the previous one
Quote from Forbin :Spoken like someone who doesn't understand cryptography.

...

That's only true if you don't have access to the secret key. Obviously we need access to the key else we couldn't view the replay. Burying it inside an exe is not the same as keeping it secret.

Also MD5, SHA-1, and SHA-2 are hash functions, not used for encrypting data.
Quote from Storm_Cloud :Good points, as always. I do recall that in the good old days when I was racing in leagues of friends (like OWRL), practice servers would be busy but we shared setups. That has dropped away so little happens publically online, but in some ways this is also due to the obsession with GT endurance racing, as it becomes a team setup rather than a personal one, which makes it more difficult to share.

On the other hand, in real racing teams will examine TV footage, sound analysis, speed data etc to get lots of info on what other teams are doing. Maybe that goes too far in LFS now?

Even back in the MoE/IGTC heyday, the server would be busy with teams practicing - they'd not really share setups with other teams or drivers, except maybe a base to another team who was just starting out - the sharing came in a less experienced driver observing lines to learn the track, or a relatively new team asking about a setting and other teams explaining what increasing it would do vs decreasing. The discussions between teammates about their set would be fairly generic but enough to glean advice and maybe generic strategy - which is akin to what you can observe if you were really at the track during a practice session.

All in all, it's appalling that this could be the ultimate downfall of league racing in LFS.
Quote from cargame.nl :[setup stealing] needs to be addressed, not waved away.

// Which is quite difficult I think..

the only possibility is to receive all position information for all world objects from the server.

could work on a lan though
If you can't fight it, make it available to everyone.

So either tougher encryption, or change the culture by allowing everyone to use anyone's set (there might be some resistance initially, but it would get accepted soon enough).

In real racing you can walk about the paddock, talk to drivers, look at their cars, and gain a lot of information. At international level you can use photography and analysis tools to garner toe and camber data - sound analysis for gearing and so on - heck, F1 teams steal and buy each others secret data routinely...

Apart from a league race long enough for fuel stops even that is simply "enough for the race".

It's not exactly rocket science to work out tyre choice or pressure.

So what's the big secret? Only because hackers have something others don't... So lets change the landscape and just open up setups for everyone.
-
(Forbin) DELETED by Forbin
Quote from PeterN :That's only true if you don't have access to the secret key. Obviously we need access to the key else we couldn't view the replay. Burying it inside an exe is not the same as keeping it secret.

Also MD5, SHA-1, and SHA-2 are hash functions, not used for encrypting data.

I stand corrected.
Quote from Forbin :Evidence? Even if they did gain an advantage...

You already have the exact same car, just not necessarily the same settings.....

Even coming from someone who spent hours upon hours making setups over the years, I think you're tremendously overstating the importance of a good setup. It can help, but it's no replacement for good driving/racing skills.

I can not provide factual evidence that stealing a set will improve your time...but I could instantly tell you if someone has a better set up than you...

Of course it is the same car...my comment was referring to using the same set up...

The fact is that there are many fast guys....they are driving mostly to the limitations of the car set up...if one can find a way to increase the limitation of the set up then they have an advantage...

To my mind either set up sharing is mandatory...or not.
Quote :Evidence? Even if they did gain an advantage...

Evidence: Try to drive oval with minimum wings and then try again with maximum wings, are you still able to drive same laptimes?

So yeah, setups can be important and there are many reasons why it hurts league racing that much. Some of them were mentioned above already but also it becomes more interesting when there are more drivers/teams with different setups and different strategies but nowadays it's often so that everyone just steals the best available setup and maybe does some small changes to make the setup fit theirself and everybody got the same strategies.
Quote from MonkeyHead :Evidence: Try to drive oval with minimum wings and then try again with maximum wings, are you still able to drive same laptimes?

I'm sure we can both agree that's a massive oversimplification, to the point of absurdity.
+/- 10kN/m on a spring isn't going to have nearly the same effect on lap times as +/- 1 degree of wing angle, and the latter is much easier to optimize, particularly on an oval. The former is much more nebulous and subjective.

Quote from MonkeyHead :So yeah, setups can be important and there are many reasons why it hurts league racing that much. Some of them were mentioned above already but also it becomes more interesting when there are more drivers/teams with different setups and different strategies but nowadays it's often so that everyone just steals the best available setup and maybe does some small changes to make the setup fit theirself and everybody got the same strategies.

Do you not think everyone will tend towards the same, optimal strategies over time anyway? Even without having the same setup, teams tend to watch what the winning teams do and attempt to emulate them.

Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG