Everything is wacky. The HPD and FGT are faster with ice cold tyres. The HPD is faster with zero camber. There is so much obviously simple wrong.

I have lost all faith in iracing.

Iracing 0.2 is here folks.

Quote from baSh0r :

Everything is wacky. The HPD and FGT are faster with ice cold tyres. The HPD is faster with zero camber. There is so much obviously simple wrong.

The cold tires is just mind boggling how wrong they got that. I noticed the zero camber trick too yesterday, instantly clicked the "X" in the top of the screen and decided driving that was confirmed, useless.

i just got the star mazda and road america and silverstone. and it shoves a pit lolipop up my arse soving me in division 2, im the only class D driver. fun fun fun :P

Yeah, this is pretty bad.

Little sad that 8 years following the sim racing "scene" and this is the best that they can come up with. It's also crazy that Scawen came up with something (meaning a physical model) that's already better than this with a fraction of the resources; he does seem to have a better understanding overall of what the major problems are.

DK created a model that feels like an earlier version of LFS but with different flaws altogether. That being said LFS feels better right now in my opinion... I was actually really looking forward to this release of iRacing but it's largely a side step from what I can tell. I'm losing my ability to take them seriously considering the directions they're going at the moment.

On the other hand, LFS (as I stated in a thread earlier this year) still feels "good" but is lacking in so many "toppings" as it were, and I still don't understand what the feck the problem is after all this time with NO graphical updates, and no real useful changes that pertain the simulation aspect of the game for this amount of time. But it's not my baby, that's just my opinion.

Might as well just say piss on this idea and get a car like Tristan and just do the real thing - it doesn't seem like anyone can move this genre forward with any real gusto or authenticity, I guess it really must be just too hard.

The biggest issue I have is not how much they have seemed to botch the release but the fact that you can't find one response from a staff memeber at all which would have gone a long way to settling things down.

Edit: - Oops looks like I was wrong there is one post 7 pages deep into Alex's thread lol but there is certainly no real feed back at all about anyones concerns.

Thing is, I think that they are stepping in the right direction....just not as much forward as we where lead to believe. I can't speak for the new cars yet, but the trucks seem a bit better. No longer does it seem that drifting is the way around the oval...although I'm sure someone will find a way around that with setup.

I don't think we got the NTM, instead we got an update of the OTM....seems to simaler (Skippy seems no different to me :shrug for this to be classed a model.

Well like I am sure has been said already, if Scawen released a new physics model that was possibly worse than before, but maybe better, then we as a community would be none to happy. The fact that they promoted it in the way they have makes me think they haven't got a clue, really.

Quote from Glenn67 :

The biggest issue I have is not how much they have seemed to botch the release but the fact that you can't find one response from a staff memeber at all which would have gone a long way to settling things down.

Edit: - Oops looks like I was wrong there is one post 7 pages deep into Alex's thread lol but there is certainly no real feed back at all about anyones concerns.

"They don't work on the weekends". I guess that means they don't check their own forums either. Pretty sad.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Thing is, I think that they are stepping in the right direction....just not as much forward as we where lead to believe. I can't speak for the new cars yet, but the trucks seem a bit better. No longer does it seem that drifting is the way around the oval...although I'm sure someone will find a way around that with setup.

I don't think we got the NTM, instead we got an update of the OTM....seems to simaler (Skippy seems no different to me :shrug for this to be classed a model.

Trucks can slide just fine, but eventhough it might slow you down a bit now, it does nothing to the tires. You can abuse the tires consistently but that does nothing because wear means nothing with the tire model. I'm watching the DWC race now at Atlanta. The top 2 guys didn't take tires at the last pit stop and is now pulling away from the field which makes no sense.

I think what we are seeing here is the pressures of expectations from the sim racing community having a greater affect than once thought.

Take what happened here in LFS almost 3 years ago. When the patch was delayed, with a good reason behind that, the majority of the community here where willing to wait, sure we had bitches who moaned but that's life. However when it was becoming clear over the following weeks and months and the new patch wasn't coming in early 2009 (their words not mine) then more people started to moan and become disillusioned with it. Now it's almost 3 years and it's become a bit of a running joke (I was, in fact, going to make a joke comparing LFS to the Manic Street Preachers album 'Forever Delayed', but even that was released eventually) and as a result I do believe we have seen LFS suffer as a result.

Another example would be NetKar Pro, God only knows what happens with that at times. We could go through years of not getting anything to a magic period of 6/8 months where we see rapid expansion followed by another slow down.

My laboured point is thus, iRacing where damned if they did and damned if the didn't...just like Scawen is if he ever gets around to releasing the new patch for LFS just like Kunos is for netKar pro whenever he does anything....we has sim racers have to readdress our expectations slightly, sometimes cut them some slack and look past flaws and see a bigger picture.

Whatever has been done is better than what we had...sure not as much as we wanted but still progress is progress, and surely nobody better than sim racing nutters are able to appreciate that the finer things in life come to those who wait...now back to my Guinness




BTW can I just registrar my extreme disappointment that there is no Guinness drinking smiley available to use on these boards....and too think we are moaning about trivial things like NTM....pfft

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Whatever has been done is better than what we had...

"One step forward two steps backwards" comes to mind though

Anyway I will give them the benifit of doubt until they release the NTM on the V8SC and if the situation hasn't improved significantly by then I swear I am going to dismantle my sim rig in protest!

Comparing iRacing to LFS and NKP is just a silly comparison in my eyes. LFS and NKP are true sims with developers that are truely into simulating cars because they enjoy them.

iRacing is a million dollar business. They have money to pour toward getting data needed to create the ultimate sim. They go and hype up this 2.0 "Revolutionary in Sim racing" and it ends up to be a flop. The NTM isn't even comparable to NKP or LFS. It just feels miserable. I think iRacing should be happy that they didn't release the NTM to all cars. That fail in their promise saved them quite a bit of harsh feedback from their own fails.

So how can they release a NTM that within hours people say is clearly wrong in basic ways? I hear they're going to make modifications based on user feedback . iRacing are supposed to be the experts! They're not amateur rFactor modders sitting in bedrooms making guestimates gleaned from odd bits of technical info and videos they've managed to get their hands on. They've shed loads of money, access to real technical data, and presumably therefore, pro drivers to validate the physics - or so we're led to believe.

I'd never really subscribed to the view iRacing was expensive hype - overly commercial yes, but basically better than the rest. There was always the issue of certain features lacking or poorer than some other sims, but the justification was that iRacing takes accuracy seriously and does it right. That argument's gone down the pan then.

Expect it's cheered Scawen up a bit though.

Blimey! Think I might have to finally get myself an LFS license (been a 'conscientious objector' for so long now I've forgotten what it was I was objecting to), and one can't wait for rFactor2 for ever.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

...now back to my Guinness

Only sensible thing in your post

Delicious.

Quote from Postman Pat :

...I'd never really subscribed to the view iRacing was expensive hype - overly commercial yes, but basically better than the rest. There was always the issue of certain features lacking or poorer than some other sims, but the justification was that iRacing takes accuracy seriously and does it right. That argument's gone down the pan then.

That's exactly where I was at, until today. What a massive disappointment. Oh well, I gave them a couple years of dough, no harm no fowl - now to wait for the LFS patch.

Anyone notice that the last 5 years, all we do on PCs whether it's RPGs, racing sims, or what have you, is wait for patches? I don't want to race LFS until the ridiculous setups are at least curtailed.

Postman Pat: About the tyres and data, i remember someone from iR staff writing blog about getting data from Michelin. They got none, so it's like rF here.
Odd thing is, it's the best feeling i have from a car in their service though.

I don't think this release proves the merits of a small business type sim vs a multi-million dollar sim. it just proves how bloody hard it is to get tyre physics right.

I couldn't try it yet. No big loss as I keep on reading. I've lost all my faith in iR, also regret spending over $600 on it... LFS ftw.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Might as well just say piss on this idea and get a car like Tristan and just do the real thing - it doesn't seem like anyone can move this genre forward with any real gusto or authenticity, I guess it really must be just too hard.

That's what I did as soon as I got the money to do so, except with 2 wheels instead of 4. I made the switch at the peak of my proficiency in LFS and promptly lost that proficiency. I think a lot of it had to do with my brain slightly demphasizing visual and auditory stimuli in favor of somatic.

It took me 3 years to get to the point where I'm able to push almost like I could in LFS, basically 1 second per lap off the top Expert in my class.

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

also regret spending over $600 on it... LFS ftw.

I havn't spend that much yet (maybe 400) but I won't pay any cent more either =/

Quote from PMD9409 :

Comparing iRacing to LFS and NKP is just a silly comparison in my eyes. LFS and NKP are true sims with developers that are truely into simulating cars because they enjoy them.

I think that is an ad hominem to be honest. First of all I don't think the money they make/spend is any kind of indicator how good the sim is. The only meaningful comparison is that lfs and nkp are really small compared to iracing if you look ad budgets.

Dev team size has its positivies and negatives as well. Small teams like lfs and nkp are extremely dependant how many hours per day a dev is willing to spend time with the sim. Burnouts are not uncommon though. The latest example being the rfactor track maker (bob's track builder). Once you run out of time the sim is the first to go. And this is what has happened to lfs and nkp. They are dying. Teams like iracing have emplyees who work there. Maybe not putting 110% into it but still that's their job and they do it 40 hour per week no matter what.

As I see it iracing is the only one who is putting in honest effort. Lfs is and always has been so good because everything else has been crappy. Imho of course. 2005-2006 there simply wasn't anything else to be taken seriously. That doesn't take anything away from lfs being revolutionary at its peak and still having many absolutely fantastic features but it's 5 years since last physics improvement!

How I see it though is that if there some day is a sim racing revolution coming it won't be because of lfs or nkp. The only one who can make the last push is iracing. And to me they are clearly trying. Their marketing department surely has hurt them a lot recently but even their old tire model was just much much better than lfs. And the one will get better.

Quote from PMD9409 :

iRacing is a million dollar business. They have money to pour toward getting data needed to create the ultimate sim. They go and hype up this 2.0 "Revolutionary in Sim racing" and it ends up to be a flop. The NTM isn't even comparable to NKP or LFS. It just feels miserable. I think iRacing should be happy that they didn't release the NTM to all cars. That fail in their promise saved them quite a bit of harsh feedback from their own fails.

It is just a marketing failure imho.


I also think that comparing the delays of lfs and iracing tire model delays is nothing short of true fanboyism. Iracing has been releasing tons of features and content in the meantime while at lfs there has been only 1 or 2 blog posts on the mainsite. It is just way out of proportions. Total absence of everything versus long delay of one feature in the sim. I just can't take anyone seriously who compars the ntm delays to the lfs delays.

Quote from Hyperactive :

It is just a marketing failure imho.

That's one way of looking at it.

Trouble is, DK is not the marketing department (true, it can be difficult to differentiate at times). So when he announced that his 'general theory of rubber' was accurately predicting tyre behaviour in ways that weren't possible with the bog standard Pacejka + low speed fudges, but then had to partially roll out something that clearly didn't work generally on all cars and tracks and is apparently playing up in obvious ways to many (it seems) even on what has been put out, then that hits his credibility. Most people haven't experienced RL track driving let alone open wheelers, so a lot of this is about an act of faith in iRacing's claims of realism.

The problem is, even if it starts to behave acceptably after 'adjustments', I'd find it difficult to trust anything again. But I'm sure the legions of loyal investors will differ.

I doubt iracing is 'making money' Think they are just on a loan from our good friend mr Henry. There overhead cost counts against them.

Quote from Postman Pat :

That's one way of looking at it.

Trouble is, DK is not the marketing department (true, it can be difficult to differentiate at times).

It's an american company. Everyone there works for the marketing department

Quote from Postman Pat :

So when he announced that his 'general theory of rubber' was accurately predicting tyre behaviour in ways that weren't possible with the bog standard Pacejka + low speed fudges, but then had to partially roll out something that clearly didn't work generally on all cars and tracks and is apparently playing up in obvious ways to many (it seems) even on what has been put out, then that hits his credibility.

I don't have the hdp or the ford so I don't know how those drive but the skippy isn't all that bad. It definitely feels more right than it was before even if it is understeering pig now. It wasn't all that wrong before imho either.

The oval cars are just better imho. I think the biggest positive about the new tiremodel is how the cars drive now compared to how they drove with the old tire model. Not if all the rest like wear, heat and cambers are correct right from the start.

Quote from Postman Pat :

Most people haven't experienced RL track driving let alone open wheelers, so a lot of this is about an act of faith in iRacing's claims of realism.

I don't think RL track experience is any kind of holy grail. 99% of people who give feedback on how real cars drive in a sim have mostly just sat in a car going around a race track many many seconds off the pace. I've done trackdays myself and I consider myself to be smart enough to keep my trap shut because I was no where near the speeds I drive in sims

Quote from Hyperactive :

but even their old tire model was just much much better than lfs.

If you've played or play iRacing, you would know this to be false. There're simply too many issues going wrong even with the old tire model. Go ahead, try all sort of stuff with cars that haven't been applied with the new tire model if you don't believe me.

You guys should go check out the replay of the guy doing a burnout for 5 minutes and his rear tires don't even pop.