Spell it right...

Qur'an Saying Koran is like calling the bible Beiber

And next, If the America doesn't pull their head out of their ass and stops acting like other religions are second nature and everyone else except goodie old America they are gonna get shown either by force or they will piss off a group of people enough to start taking more of our buildings down, Aren't we already fighting a war because we wanted more than what we had? The times I wish I had a shotgun, That bastard deserves to get tortured for burning someones beliefs.

America.... It sickens me.. (No offense to anyone who is in LOVE with the country)



Edit: I'm pretty sure if we died in a bombing for lets say, A Japanese building, And we tried to build a church, Where it went down, Japanese people would most likely be cool with it. War can start with a misunderstanding, I've got a few Muslim friends (I'm a atheist, Before anyone jumps me.) And I fully support it, It's very very racist for America to turn it away, If they used it to build bombs or some crazy shit, Sure, Deny them, But these are just some people (Who will use New York resources; Make them money) Who want to pray, Whats so bad about building a place there, Almost Everyone can look down at America, Well, The people that want it there / other Countrys

I think TheAmazingAthiest said it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPC-isxrhTs

Quote from TehPaws3D :

america sucks an stuff

so because we're big ol qur'an burning meanies radical muslims should murder thousands of american citizens and women and children all over the world in so called honor killings?

Quote :

That bastard deserves to get tortured for burning someones beliefs.

by your logic we should torture all radical muslims or terrorist sympathizers. How many jews and christians have they burned in the last 30 years for their beliefs? How many beheaded? jeez how many bibles were in the world trade center when they burned it? Something tells me if this thread was about torturing muslims you would be crying for their rights but its ok to torture a few of your own citizens for their beliefs, right?

Quote from flymike91 :

so because we're big ol qur'an burning meanies radical muslims should murder thousands of american citizens and women and children all over the world in so called honor killings?


by your logic we should torture all radical muslims or terrorist sympathizers. How many jews and christians have they burned in the last 30 years for their beliefs? How many beheaded? jeez how many bibles were in the world trade center when they burned it? Something tells me if this thread was about torturing muslims you would be crying for their rights but its ok to torture a few of your own citizens for their beliefs, right?

First.. What? I don't promote honor killings or flying planes into buildings or killing troops, Never said i did, Any jackass with C4 and a cause can blow shit to bits and say he was doing it for the Muslim religion. I could detonate a small school of innocent kids, I did it because god was telling me I needed to cleanse the earth of filth.. Get my point?

And second.. No.. I don't want anyone tortured, But burning someones religion is just about as bad as starting a war with them, If he would have lit that book, We would have been in war with them, Therefore he shouldn't have burned it, If they burned our bibles and we tried to be all nice and just want to build a decent (This isn't a drug house, Or abortion ring) This is a place of prayer, You don't see any thugs hanging around them, And they would be praying for most likely everyone that was lost.

It's not about how many bibles were burned in the world trade center, I'd probably be around 5 If you counted, And you took my point wrong, He wants to burn a book of their religion, SURE, It's paper in a neatly made book, But to most people it means more than that, And i'm not biased to Muslims, Like i said, I'm a atheist, I don't give a shit what happens, It's just wrong for our country (Which is suppose to be looked at as friendly? I guess? :shrug to turn down people when they didn't do shit, It's not like they chanted the building down with their sayings. I'm open-ended, I can see things from two sides, And I was never talking about terrorist sympathizers, If you have your reasons, And they seem "Within reasons" Then by all means do it, Like TAA said, The bad things win, But you can give them the bird all you want.

Quote from flymike91 :

so because we're big ol qur'an burning meanies radical muslims should murder thousands of american citizens and women and children all over the world in so called honor killings?


by your logic we should torture all radical muslims or terrorist sympathizers. How many jews and christians have they burned in the last 30 years for their beliefs? How many beheaded? jeez how many bibles were in the world trade center when they burned it? Something tells me if this thread was about torturing muslims you would be crying for their rights but its ok to torture a few of your own citizens for their beliefs, right?

You really need to be more educated before posting bullsh*t, like i said in my previous post. You seriously have no clue.

Quote from flymike91 :

How many jews and christians have they burned in the last 30 years for their beliefs? How many beheaded?

Koran 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion"

Quote from TehPaws3D :

Spell it right...

Neither spelling is correct.

Quote from Shotglass :

yes it does and of course it would
much less intelligent animals live in groups/packs/herds etc which offers loads of advantages and does require all of the above supposedly human bahaviours to work for any length of time
once you get to the point where offsrping takes at least 14 years to mature to any leves at which it can support itself living as a herd and having the "humanity" necessary to do so becomes inevitable

I quote something written by Francis Collins. Sorry about the length but I see it relevant.

Quote :

Let's focus on this last question. One of the most notable characteristics of humanity, across centuries, cultures, and geographic locations, is a universal grasp of the concept of right and wrong and an inner voice that calls us to do the right thing. This is often referred to as the moral law. We may not always agree on what behaviors are right (which is heavily influenced by culture), but we generally agree that we should try to do good and avoid evil. When we break the moral law (which we do frequently, if we are honest with ourselves), we make excuses, only further demonstrating that we feel bound by the moral law in our dealings with others.

Evolutionary arguments, which ultimately depend on reproductive fitness as the overarching goal, may explain some parts of this human urge toward altruism, especially if self-sacrificing acts are done on behalf of relatives or those from whom you might expect some future reciprocal benefit. But evolutionary models universally predict the need for reflexive hostility to outside groups, and we humans do not seem to have gotten that memo. We especially admire cases in which individuals make sacrifices for strangers or members of outside groups: think of Mother Teresa, or Oskar Schindler, or the Good Samaritan.

We should be skeptical of those who dismiss these acts of radical altruism as some sort of evolutionary misfiring. And if these noble acts are frankly a scandal to reproductive fitness, might they instead point in a different direction - toward a holy, loving, and caring God, who instilled the moral law in each of us as a sign of our special nature and as a call to relationship with the Almighty?

Do not get me wrong. I am not arguing that the existence of the moral law somehow proves God’s existence. Such proofs cannot be provided by the study of nature. And there is an inherent danger in arguing that the moral law points to some sort of supernatural intervention in the early days of human history; this has the flavor of a "God of the gaps" argument. After all, much still remains to be understood about evolution's influence on human nature. But even if radically altruistic human acts can ultimately be explained on the basis of evolutionary mechanisms, this would do nothing to exclude God’s hand. For if God chose the process of evolution in the beginning to create humans in imago Dei, it would also be perfectly reasonable for God to have used this same process to instill knowledge of the moral law.

A deeper question raised by this debate is the fundamental nature of good and evil. Does morality actually have any foundation? To be consistent, a committed atheist, who argues that evolution can fully account for all aspects of human nature, must also argue that the human urge toward altruism, including its most radical and self-sacrificial forms, is a purely evolutionary artifact. This forces the conclusion that the concepts of good and evil have no real foundation, and that we have been hoodwinked by evolution into thinking that morality provides meaningful standards of judgment. Yet few atheists seem willing to own up to this disturbing and depressing consequence of their worldview. On the contrary, the most aggressive of them seem quite comfortable pointing to the evil they see religion as having inspired. Isn’t that rather inconsistent?

I was once an atheist myself, and so I understand the temptation to fall into a completely materialistic view of human nature. But seeing all of humanity's nobler attributes through the constricted lens of atheism and materialism ultimately leads to philosophical impoverishment and even to the necessity of giving up concepts of benevolence and justice. I found that a whole world of interesting questions opened up for me once I accepted the possibility of a spiritual aspect to humanity.

Quote from TehPaws3D :

But these are just some people (Who will use New York resources; Make them money) Who want to pray, Whats so bad about building a place there

It's not like it's the only Mosque in the vicinity. There are plenty of others slightly further away (still within walking distance) they could use.

What if Christians wanted to turn an important building in Afghanistan into a parish centre? I don't think that'd go down too well. And it would be even less tolerated in Iran or Pakistan. The more we pander to them, the more they see the West as weak and willing to cave.

Quote from mookie427 :

What if Christians wanted to turn an important building in Afghanistan into a parish centre? I don't think that'd go down too well. And it would be even less tolerated in Iran or Pakistan. The more we pander to them, the more they see the West as weak and willing to cave.

I think the idea is that mostly western muslims - probably American muslims - would be the ones using it. The same way the McDonalds in my high street isn't there to pander to the Americans, it's there to sell burgers to English people.

Those who feel victimised need to be reminded that their respective countries are part of unjust occupations or seiges of Muslim people, hardly the position of a victim.

Quote from mookie427 :

What if Christians wanted to turn an important building in Afghanistan into a parish centre? I don't think that'd go down too well. And it would be even less tolerated in Iran or Pakistan. The more we pander to them, the more they see the West as weak and willing to cave.

One of the few things most Westerners have left to be proud of is our relative tolerance, at least as far as I can see in my own area. So because Muslims happen to be particularly intolerant of just about everything we should lower ourselves to their level?

Lets say if there were controversial proposals to build a church next to a sensetive Islamic location, no doubt you'd all be going on about people's 'freedoms' to build churches wherever they choose. Thats the thing about the American concept of 'freedoms', everybody should be free, just so long as they don't wear a turban or are black or happen to take a fancy to members of their own sex. You're all perfectly happy to preach the concept of liberty until it works against you.

Quote from 5haz :

Thats the thing about the American concept of 'freedoms', everybody should be free, just so long as they don't wear a turban or are black or happen to take a fancy to members of their own sex.

You don't know many Americans, nor much about America then!

I'd say burn every god damn religious book because they are full of crap anyways.

Quote from Intrepid :

You don't know many Americans, nor much about America then!

What I do know about is a history of Jim Crow laws restricting the 'freedoms' of black people, amendments such as proposition 8 which continue to restrict the 'freedoms' of homosexual people, and the way in which right now Muslim people are having their 'freedoms' to build a Mosque wherever they choose restricted. As Kev already stated above, the proposed mosque will serve and will be run by American citizens, yet suddenly their 'freedoms' no longer apply because of their faith? And that is why I make that claim.

Now, what do you have to back up yours? (And don't say you have 'many years of experience in the industry' somewhere, you've really worn that one out).

The best thing for the people of the US to do now is to uphold the shining beacon of liberty that they supposedly have and let the mosque go ahead, because peaceful tolerance would really stick two fingers up to the radical Muslims trying to turn people against the West, unfortunately its already too late for that and the West has already lowered itself down to their level.

Quote from flymike91 :

so because we're big ol qur'an burning meanies radical muslims should murder thousands of american citizens and women and children all over the world in so called honor killings?

That really doesn't make any sense Mike. Violent people kill other people all the time, whether they're Qur'an burners, bible burners, or non-book burners, they will do it for no reason at all (although in their minds there is usually some lame justification). In no instance is the murder of innocents acceptable, where ever you are and whatever your religion. Saying that being against Qur'an burning means that you like to see Americans get killed is ridiculous. I wonder if you really think like that or whether you're just arguing your point with over the top emotionalism because your argument otherwise is fairly weak?

I read this today in the paper:

http://www.theage.com.au/world ... lians-20100909-15392.html

Who are these guys? Do they represent America? Do they represent Christianity? What do these actions represent to you? What is the justification here?

So can anyone please explain why governments pander to Islam?

Try going to a Muslim country and wanting to build a church, it'll get rejected.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

So can anyone please explain why governments pander to Islam?

Try going to a Muslim country and wanting to build a church, it'll get rejected.

So you criticise Muslim intolerance but advocate intolerance of Muslims in your own country?

The problem is that despite each side playing the victim in truth each side is just as guilty of intolerance and terrible violent acts, at least Muslims are openly intolerant instead of hididng it behind a veneer of fake liberty and freedom.

No, I was using that as an example of double standards.

In the West, Muslims get given a lot of slack, whereas in Muslim countries other religions get treated with something approaching contempt.

Would you rather (say) Christianity was openly intolerant of every other religion

Quite right the do, they way that the Muslim faith approaches the human rights of people of other cultures or sexual orientations and women just isn't on in so many cases. But the USA is supposed to be a land of liberty where every man and women is created equal and their human rights upheld, but in truth these principles are trodden on all the time. The USA and the West has allowed itself over centuries to be lowered down to Islam's level of intolerance and then beaten on experience. It is our intolerance that really puts the wind in Al Quaeda's sails.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

In the West, Muslims get given a lot of slack, whereas in Muslim countries other religions get treated with something approaching contempt.

I think you'll find through experience that most religions will tend to treat other religions with 'something approaching contempt'.

I think the reason Western civilisation is slightly more tolerant is because religion is becoming less prominent, even a hundred years ago atheists would be hard to come by, while I know very few of my generation who attend church, while in the Middle East I get the impresion that Islam still has a incredibly strong hold over every member of society in some regions, from the most humble to the most powerful, which is why intolerance is so much more apparent in these areas while the relatively large numbers of atheists in the West who can see how pointless religion and religious intolerance is results in a relatively tolerant society?

EDIT: And now its the Muslim's turn to show their true colours...

Koran protests sweep Afghanistan

The most galling thing about it all is how uneccessary the whole affair is, from 9/11 right through to this, just religion causing people who would otherwise never think twice about eachother to chant death and preach hate, wage wars and destroy buildings.

Wow, you guys care about this more than Americans.

It's not a big deal here, most don't even care about any of it. The news/media throw it all out of proportion and make it a big deal (like they do with everything).

Indeed media might blow this up a lot, but now we're already discussing that stuff (mostly in a biased but still quite civilized way) and can't stop :-)

First of all please stop saying "the cristians" "the muslims or "the americans", most of the members of each group might still be great lads despite small groups doing stupid things.

1: @Mike: just a few years after 3000 people died in the towers the American government has sent out troops to murder some 80000 to 650000 people (numbers may vary depending on who stated them, W.H.O. claims 150000). Whenever one American is slapped in the face, 10000000 Americans have to kill the whole country the guy came from. This is of course much exaggerated, but has a true core.

2: The musqe would have been build NEAR ground zero. Noone will be dancing around on the ruins with a turban.

Religion itself is not dangerous, I do believe in SOMETHING that knows the formula, something that could be the beginning of all. Of course this might come from my strong christian roots and education, everyone thinks different on that topic and this variety is what could make us strong.
I hate the stupid channeling of religion into a "don't think, believe!" state which produces nothing but intolerance and kills creative minds.

so long for now...

der butz

Quote from Scott Mckenzie :

I quote something written by Francis Collins. Sorry about the length but I see it relevant.

classic case of wearing blinders
morality seems to be a consequence of evolution through intelligence being a consequence of evolution
once you get to the point of animals that are smart enough to do philosophy any simplistic views on evolution influencing behaviour stop making any sense whatsoever

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

Try going to a Muslim country and wanting to build a church, it'll get rejected.

"but mom he started it" is not a valid argument for anyone past preschool level