Oh yeah...
Optimus Prime, in photo-realism! Woohoo

Quote from ajp71 :

Unfortunately it seems that the third most popular sim personality of 2005 seems to have gone about this the wrong way, then again he was bloody minded to say the very least when he ignored Papy and managed to get taken to court.

Hold on... Papy has always been supportive of mods, to the point there was one group of people that were actively working together with them (indeed some of them were (former) employees) to create mods and add-ons (Project WildFire). Then all of a sudden Papy is gone, iRacing is formed, and people are forbidden to use the same mods and stuff and create new ones? As it turned out, PW and Papy kind of merged into iRacing, and now they are thinking about making a shitload of money, and part of that plan is to deny their previously free stuff to the general public. Well, they were too late for that, and the whole deal went off like a bomb. I'm not saying Tim's threats towards papy (iRacing) about releasing all the source code he had access to was very smart, but iRacing's sudden 180 on NR2003S was sure to backfire on them one way or another. At the time, it was a lot of bad publicity. Don't know how many people actually remember any of it.

Quote from axus :

I was reading Tim's post above and was half way through the first paragraph. I thought I was in for a good laugh, but then the power tripped and after I reset, the post was already edited.

Android's synopsis is very good... And a lot funnier.

It was basically a summation of "I did this, and you didn't (well, I dunno, but I'm assuming you didn't).

Quote from sgt.flippy :

There is another girl around here seriously in need of a S2 license!

Wha? Who?

Quote from sgt.flippy :

You poor thing

Well this one's new!

I'd like it to test it out sometime, but not a necessarity

It'll be fun... I'll teach how to bumpdraft. That's running up against others without the intention of passing them or spinning them out (unless your name is Dale Earnhardt Jr, and there's a certain guy by the name of Carl Edwards in front of you... Then you wreck 'm). Unlike the other running up and bumping others you described in the other thread (just having a go at you, I'm bored without the STCC servers)

ESL #2 www.esl-europe.net - 10:22, 16 Aug 2003 - Southcity Sprint1 - 4 laps
1. ÁjjLe BoBBi RB4 4:13.950
2. Momitsu RB4 +0:00.320
3. marcione FXO +0:07.830
4. HamerFowl RB4 +0:09.310
5. dannel RB4 +0:19.380
6. TagForce RB4 +0:23.390


Oldest race in this thread yet (by a grand total of 7 days)
My God I was such a noob back then :P

Edit:
But I learned quickly:
ESL #2 www.esl-europe.net - 10:48, 16 Aug 2003 - Southcity Sprint1 - 4 laps
1. arrechee RB4 4:10.790
2. TagForce RB4 +0:07.300
3. Blaxun FXO +0:10.480
4. tpa XRT +0:12.670
5. 9ra55h0ppaH FXO +0:39.110

+1

I'd like the chance to beat all you yanks and rednecks at your own game.
But we'd need the american national anthem played before the start of the warm up laps, and I mean from "Oh say can you see" all the way through to "Gentlemen, start your engines!", and of course a spotter going "Git to her, boy, ye can shure'z ol'hell take'r passs dat dang slow piece-o'-junk, 'slong as ye keep'r from wreckin' ya"

Quote from Shotglass :

who are you and what did you do with ajp ?

LMAO... I was just thinking the same thing...

Quote from Becky Rose :

I must admit, driving 40 car fields of group C cars DOES appeal to me. Quite a lot. Whether the physics suck or not .

NR2003S physics are different from LFS, but they do not *suck*, imo.
If I could find the darn mod installers again I'd give it a go myself. Used to be good at it.

Quote from ajp71 :

That's exactly the kind of statment that true or not provokes people from other sims when you post it on their board, actually that's probably a more provokative thing to post than a detail explaination to why LFS does some things better than others. Physics is a broad term and to be fair there are some physics areas that LFS is diabolical at.

Which is exactly why I post that here, and not somewhere else. The point is, that no matter WHAT you post somewhere else... If the letters LFS are anywhere in it, you're going to get flamed, especially when they know you play LFS.

Even if I were to post it somewhere else, that still doesn't make it a flamebait. It's simply an observation. And I back up my claims by showing them what exactly is wrong with it. Even the people playing that sim themselves claim that part of the physics is wrong, but when I state the exact same I get flamed for being an "lfs-fanboy". THAT is *not* our problem.

Edit:
NR2003S is indeed superior to LFS in online play. I especially liked the ranking on the sierra servers... Which is probably why I love Becky's system so much. The collision system actually wasn't half bad. It was worse on road courses though. I suppose detecting collisions is easier on ovals.

Last edited by TagForce, Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:03.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

TBH, I expect a "sorry" immediately from a racer who makes me significantly lose time / places due to an erroneous decision, because it shows s/he has acknowledged his/her mistake. As much as I have tried in the past to think that "maybe s/he will say sorry at the end of the race", I will be pissed off if it doesn't happen immediately. It's just the way I am, nothing more, Even though I *know* the person who offended me, I'll be angry at not getting an apology immediately.

/me must learn to type whilst drunk

Ok, I was going to point you to the thread where this post would be on-topic dealing with mapping a sorry button...
But this is it. :dunce::twirl:

Last edited by TagForce, Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:45.

Quote from kart38 :

Tag and Becky, I guess my thing is that I just don't understand why one game has to be better than the others. Who cares? I can have fun in any racing game. Does it make me less of a "hardcore" simmer to enjoy playing Burnout with my girlfriend, or even by myself for that matter? I'd think not. But by reading posts here it certainly makes ME feel like most people here view themselves as better than me because of MY choice in games. I don't see the point in comparing difference between games either. I've never understood that amongst any of the various sim communities. I play the games because they are fun and I enjoy racing.

It's just human nature I suppose... Like I said about the foreign policy.
You are, of course, free to play whatever you enjoy. When we're talking about other sims, we're doing it in relation to LFS. Yes, the physics are unrealistic in iSi titles, some more than others. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. The point is, we feel that the physics in LFS are the 'most realistic' (notice I didn't say 'best') to date. Not only that, but we have graphs, replays, video comparisons, etc, etc, that support that claim. The problem starts (and that is really the root of our apparent hostility towards iSi games) when others come and bash our physics when all evidence points to the contrary. We are not better than you in any way. After all it is just a 'game'. It's all turned into a championship football match, it seems. We're the away team and the underdogs, so we have to yell harder in here where it's safe

Quote :

I've had some GREAT races in various games and mods over the years and I don't think any one sim has provided me more fun than any other. So why does everyone seem to have to either love everything BUT LFS or only LFS? I really like LFS but if my man league of choice (TPTCC for those that care) were to switch to it I don't think I'd like it as much. I really do enjoy running around real tracks, really. It gives me something to relate to.

It's not that you have to love LFS or get out or anything. I like the occasional blast around Spa in GPL or NR2003S. Many people enjoy other sims, including me.

Quote :

I don't view the LFS tracks as fantasy tracks, per se, so much as real tracks that I've just never seen. The cars are all close enough to something real that I don't care that they are fake. But, IMHO, it would lose something to switch most of my sim racing to a game that, right now, doesn't have any real tracks.

As I stated on the Race boards. Eventually, the simulator with the most realistic physics will be the only one used, provided it supports modding and offers the same tracks and cars as all the other sims. We here strongly believe that will be LFS in the end. Nobody makes you switch before you want to switch. And if you feel 'unwanted' because you want to race real tracks, I'd like to apologise for the community. We're not out to bash other sims, perse, but we will defend ourselves against people that make false claims. If the other communities take that as offensive then so be it. We think we have proof that LFS is most realistic in its physics, and that is all we'll ever defend. For the rest we say "LFS isn't finished yet". Everything else you may read is just some person's opinion, which admittedly is sometimes stated as fact a bit too much.

They'll grab you by the arms and ram it in their own faces if you give them half a chance, though... And then, naturally, blame you.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I'll get you next time!



Well he already knows I'm there because he moved inside to defend the corner - if I'm not in his mirror I must be behind and to the outside. You're right that he can't tell whether there's an overlap but it's hard for me to tell because he's off to one side and my view might be obscured by a pillar or whatever.

I agree it's best to just back out - which is what I do if the other driver gives me time (ie: not a quick "chop" back towards the kerb) - but by deciding late that he wants all the road when he knew I was close behind and catching him he's asking for trouble.

Yup... Kind of the same situation I described earlier. Still your fault, but can't really blame either of you. Racing Incident. Stuff like this will always happen (but it gives you such an adrenaline rush if you make the move stick and pass around the outside).

Quote from kart38 :

I don't view any one sim as better than the other, apparently that makes me a bad person here. I just don't see the point in the elitism that people feel with LFS. It accomplishes nothing, and only turns off others.

No, it doesn't. If you enjoy LFS, and don't go off flaming it with unsupported claims of superiority you have nothing at all to fear from any of us. That goes for anybody who wants to discuss the differences between LFS and other sims (maybe with the exception of NFS players, but they're just treated the same as all ricer/drifter fans we have here, we ain't perfect).

It's the continued accusation of acting 'elitist' whenever someone mentions LFS (even when it's relevant to the topic) that started this feeling of, dare I say it, hatred towards eachother's communities. It's not that we feel like we're the elite anymore than other communities, it's just that we get accused of it a *lot* more than other communities for reasons I will never understand. It's gotten to the point that I will NEVER actively join another sim community ever again, and not buy another sim ever again, unless I know it will be at least 50% made up of LFS guys. I just don't want to get my ass flamed for liking LFS every time I use the letter L, F, and S in a single post.

Edit: Maybe we should just look at other communities and think they're applying the bigger d*ck foreign policy... (what?! They have bigger d*cks?! BOMB THEM!!! (c) George Carlin)
What?! They have a better sim?! FLAME THEM!.

Quote from Xaid0n :

perhaps get the germans involved hehe would love to see our roads then.

Yeah, 20 meter slabs of concrete welded together with a substance that will wreck your tires and suspension if not specifically set up for it. Sounds like fun

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Speaking of racing etiquette: There's one situation I'm never sure about that seems to happen to me quite often, that is perhaps worth discussing:

If a driver I'm trying to pass moves to the inside to defend before a corner, and I stay outside and end up with a very slight overlap (even just my front bumper ahead of his rear bumper), and then the defensive driver decides to move back to the outside of the track to give himself the full width of the road for the corner is it my fault if he clips my car and gets pitched off the road?

I usually lift early before the corner anyway (no point causing an accident if he moves outside, and if he does stay inside there's no point having to wait for him to go around the corner before I can enter it), but I just wondered how "proper" racers would view an incident like that.

In this case it's in fact easier to put the blame on you, since there's no way he can possibly see you. He's turning away from your car, and so you are most definitely in his blind spot. He can't tell if you're overlapping or not.

Besides, getting into a situation where you're committed to a line that will take him through you when he loses control isn't a smart thing to do... In these cases I'll just brake a bit harder, slow down more, and pull the switchback on him (accelerate out of the corner on the inside). That's the only safe thing to do.

EDIT:
I keep forgetting about the multiquote thing:

Quote from Becky Rose :

As a point of fact, I can be 0.01 of a second slower than somebody and watch them catch me for laps - but when they finaly catch me I may well be 2-3 seconds a lap slower.

The reason is simply that I will quite merrily drive defensively if I do not think I can improve my position, and defensive driving doesnt meen sticking to the fastest line, otherwise i'd still be losing that 0.01 of a second. It meens holding up the car behind, and that meens driving offline, braking in different places, being inconsistent and setting up switchbacks. All of which effect lap time.

Of course i'm quite happy to keep up the pace if I think there are others ahead who I can catch, but I think drivers need to be aware there's more than one way to skin a cat, personally, I use vinegar.

Ah, I know what you mean, but why would you drive defensive lines when there's nobody near you? If you're doing it to save tires I can understand, but that's the only reason I can see. I don't care if I'm quicker than you are. If you're defending in a way that gets us both in situations that are inpredictable we may end up spinning eachother out. I know you're smart enough to make sure I don't get to the inside after I've done it twice, but not everyone sees that. And that's the ones that can expect to be spun out (accidentally).

Last edited by TagForce, Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:38.

Quote from SamH :

We are, as it turns out (and this was news to me), actually.. from the future.

ROFL!
So THAT's why I can't find a spot on my roof to park the damn hovercar!!!
:ufo:

Quote :

We're not anywhere off to the side, in any sense. We're actually some way above, looking down at the other sims. It's clear, reading the content in this thread, that this is a well justified juxtaposition.

R2P WILL succeed, for those other racing games, because it attempts to bring some "LFS-isms" to them.

• Okay so the skin downloading won't be automatic like we have, but at least it will be better than it is now for them.
  
• Organized racing will be organized and centralized for those other sims - an issue that certainly is no stumbling block in LFS.. just take a look at our race calendar.
  
• Racing licences.. not sure how they're going to overcome the anonymity of other sims, or prevent banned users joining - I've volunteered information on our Barricade system concept to the RFactor server guys, and wished them well finding a solution that will work with their sim, but I think it's going to take software changes to integrate any R2P licencing system, to prevent licence abuse.

R2P WON'T succeed in wooing LFSers, because it just doesn't bring anything to LFS that it doesn't already have. That's just how it is.

No victim, no foul.

Well said, and I'm in agreement 100%

Quote from ajp71 :

You are still posting on their forum in by the looks of it a thread which has nothing to do with the physics in which you make a statement that the physics in LFS are better. Without having looked at the reaction I can guess that it's probably not deserved. Ask yourself this though how many threads are started on the LFS forum by users of other sims on the LFS forum saying there sims are better. If you made a post in an LFS forum thread saying the physics of rF are better than LFS you'd be shot down so why should it be a different rulebook for different forums?

I was making a post in a thread about add-on tracks for sims, in which I made the suggestion that (as opposed to some people saying conversions are bad) conversions are in fact a good thing because ultimately it makes the developers spend more time on the sim aspect, and less on the 'but we have this and this track'. Nowhere in that post did I mention LFS, except in the final paragraph in which I clearly stated that there will always be to camps in this deal... An iSi camp and an LFS camp.
Besides, I OWN Race... So it's MY forum as much as it is theirs. Most users posting anti-LFS threads on this forum don't own anything, so they have no right to bash anything.

Quote from ajp71 :

I think that's exactly right, the LFS community still seems to be unable to acknowledge the fact that other sims exist. At the same time the rest of the sim world (GPL, N2003, rF, GTR, GTL etc) don't wish to come over to LFS not because they don't like the physics or the range of cars and tracks or because of the wreckers on demo servers but because they perceive the community has an attitude problem because their exposure to LFS is mainly certain individuals who just have to go to other forums and mindlessly bash other sims with completely unjustified (true or not) claims that people don't believe.

Then how come when you even so much as mention LFS in a comparitive way on an iSi game forum (Race in this case), people immediately bash you for "preaching LFS, and trying to convert them"... Honestly, the hostility comes from the other side more than it comes from us. They create the atmosphere of hostility, not us.

Just check this post and the reaction 2 below it.

Last edited by TagForce, Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:59.

Quote from alliennas :

That's how I spend most of my time of the freeway... Going "why the hell is this road turning from 120 into an 80 zone while we're going from 2 to 4 lanes?"

Quote from alliennas :

speed limits are for one reason - safety

Actually... They SHOULD be, but I can show you plenty of spots where that is simply not the case. Just there to generate income.

Quote from Funnycat :

Кипелов - Я свободен

Kipilov - Ya Svabadin
???

Nice, but wth does it mean?

Quote from SamH :

I'll be perfectly honest, if I ever saw you take someone out deliberately to gain a place, you'd be banned on the spot. My definition of a wrecker is exactly what you're describing That kind of behaviour is exactly the kind of behaviour that I won't tolerate on a server that I administrate on.. wilfully manipulating the outcome of a race by means other than fair racing.

[edit] Do you mean you won't regret it if it happens by accident, or that you'd do it deliberately? It sounds like you'd be quite willing to allow it to happen, by "accident".

If someone is slower than I am, I make it a point to avoid touching them. Like earlier I was racing Danowat, and he was consistently braking 10 meters too early for my style. Gave him some lovetaps on the first lap, but after that it was anywhere between 5 to 30 cm between us on hard braking. Never touching. We could do that because we were both very consistent in our braking marks and turn in points. I would've regretted it very much if we had touched and crashed because I wasn't in control enough (in the end we wrecked because on SO3, there is no room for error, and the wall is unforgiving, neither of us at fault, just one of them racing deals). Best chase I've had in a loooong time.

However, if I'm behind someone that is consistently slower than I am, being an absolute b**tch about defending his/her spot to the point I'm the only one trying not to crash it seems, there may come a point where I'm less inclined to screw up my front tires trying to miss him/her. If it was a calculated move on the other's side I'd have some respect for it. Like, when I dive down the inside for the 5th time on the brakes for the same turn, you'd think someone would block the inside before I had time to go there and make me take the long way around, but they amazingly only move offline when my nose is already at their rear wheel, making me do all kinds of crazy things to keep them from wrecking themselves. In THOSE cases, I'm not sorry one bit if I spin someone out. There's an art to overtaking, but the same goes for defending your spot.

I think everyone has had these situations where overtaking someone becomes the single most important thing in the world after you've been stuck behind them for 90% of the race. Stuff like this happens in real racing too. They get a good scuffing from the FIA (if you're Schumacher) or a fine (if you're Alonso), or get suspended because you do this stuff all the time (if you're Montoya). The difference between them and us is that we would be hard pressed to kill someone in LFS.

I think (hope) that that's what Flippy is describing.

Quote from spankmeyer :

...if you haven't got gigantic feet!


Slim sole indoor sport shoes. Works like a charm.

Dude, just get the Puma Sparco racing shoes look-a-likes... I got them, and have been simracing with them for 5 years... They're perfect. Like... No sole indoor racing shoes