I've recently realised - and I do mean very recently - that we're not sidelined in the sim racing community. We're not actually black sheep. We're not a cult, or a separatist movement.

We are, as it turns out (and this was news to me), actually.. from the future.

We're not anywhere off to the side, in any sense. We're actually some way above, looking down at the other sims. It's clear, reading the content in this thread, that this is a well justified juxtaposition.

R2P WILL succeed, for those other racing games, because it attempts to bring some "LFS-isms" to them.

• Okay so the skin downloading won't be automatic like we have, but at least it will be better than it is now for them.
  
• Organized racing will be organized and centralized for those other sims - an issue that certainly is no stumbling block in LFS.. just take a look at our race calendar.
  
• Racing licences.. not sure how they're going to overcome the anonymity of other sims, or prevent banned users joining - I've volunteered information on our Barricade system concept to the RFactor server guys, and wished them well finding a solution that will work with their sim, but I think it's going to take software changes to integrate any R2P licencing system, to prevent licence abuse.

R2P WON'T succeed in wooing LFSers, because it just doesn't bring anything to LFS that it doesn't already have. That's just how it is.

No victim, no foul.

tbh I dont think there is as much seperation of mentality as 'both sides' seem to think. I can, and do, happily talk to people from other sims. The thing is in doing this over the last month or so in dealings with various other sim groups i've found that the wider sim community are not this big group of sim racing fans, but people who are trying to play inadequate sims online with software that just isn't designed or optimised for online play.

Because other sims work like more conventional single player software with multiplayer functionality, rather than use the online model that LFS uses. They dont appreciate that things can be different, as the way their software works is the same way other software works too.

If anything LFS shares more in common with Everquest and World of Warcraft than it does other driving games.

Quote from SamH :

We are, as it turns out (and this was news to me), actually.. from the future.

ROFL!
So THAT's why I can't find a spot on my roof to park the damn hovercar!!!
:ufo:

Quote :

We're not anywhere off to the side, in any sense. We're actually some way above, looking down at the other sims. It's clear, reading the content in this thread, that this is a well justified juxtaposition.

R2P WILL succeed, for those other racing games, because it attempts to bring some "LFS-isms" to them.

• Okay so the skin downloading won't be automatic like we have, but at least it will be better than it is now for them.
  
• Organized racing will be organized and centralized for those other sims - an issue that certainly is no stumbling block in LFS.. just take a look at our race calendar.
  
• Racing licences.. not sure how they're going to overcome the anonymity of other sims, or prevent banned users joining - I've volunteered information on our Barricade system concept to the RFactor server guys, and wished them well finding a solution that will work with their sim, but I think it's going to take software changes to integrate any R2P licencing system, to prevent licence abuse.

R2P WON'T succeed in wooing LFSers, because it just doesn't bring anything to LFS that it doesn't already have. That's just how it is.

No victim, no foul.

Well said, and I'm in agreement 100%

I know this is no fault of the devs, or the community really, but one thing I'd like to see is a central place for LFS Leagues. I know there is a subforum here but it doesn't do things like show me active and inactive leagues, or even leagues that no longer exsist but still have a forum here. I can't see when the league holds their races at a quick glance.

One nice thing you get at R2P, and this is not a sales pitch so please don't kill me for saying, is that it shows you a weekly calander of events (races and times, the times are even displayed in each user's local time). You fill out a little "Racing Preferences" survey and it essentially puts a vote in for what mods and times people want to play. This is something I'd like to see setup in this community, I honestly don't care who does it, as it would make it easier for me to sift through the loads of information that is useless to me to get the one bit that is.

BTW: As you notice I have an S2 license, I've been playing LFS since it was publicly released (pre-S1 days) and have always held a current license. Not all people that currently play games like nkPro, GTR2, rFactor, and Race are unaware of LFS. Some, like me, just know that they are all fun and like to play them all. I don't view any one sim as better than the other, apparently that makes me a bad person here. I just don't see the point in the elitism that people feel with LFS. It accomplishes nothing, and only turns off others.

Jason

http://www.lfsforum.net/calendar.php ?

Quote from kart38 :

I don't view any one sim as better than the other, apparently that makes me a bad person here. I just don't see the point in the elitism that people feel with LFS. It accomplishes nothing, and only turns off others.

No, it doesn't. If you enjoy LFS, and don't go off flaming it with unsupported claims of superiority you have nothing at all to fear from any of us. That goes for anybody who wants to discuss the differences between LFS and other sims (maybe with the exception of NFS players, but they're just treated the same as all ricer/drifter fans we have here, we ain't perfect).

It's the continued accusation of acting 'elitist' whenever someone mentions LFS (even when it's relevant to the topic) that started this feeling of, dare I say it, hatred towards eachother's communities. It's not that we feel like we're the elite anymore than other communities, it's just that we get accused of it a *lot* more than other communities for reasons I will never understand. It's gotten to the point that I will NEVER actively join another sim community ever again, and not buy another sim ever again, unless I know it will be at least 50% made up of LFS guys. I just don't want to get my ass flamed for liking LFS every time I use the letter L, F, and S in a single post.

Edit: Maybe we should just look at other communities and think they're applying the bigger d*ck foreign policy... (what?! They have bigger d*cks?! BOMB THEM!!! (c) George Carlin)
What?! They have a better sim?! FLAME THEM!.

I wasn't "elitist" before I dealt with the wider community, and now I am at the very least borderline. I've started to view other sims as nothing more than Playstation games, and LFS more like Everquest/Wow.

Before I had any contact with the wider sim community I used to think LFS was the underdog, but I just happened to preffer it over the other games i'd played (which is some, but not all, of the other big sims). Now I have changed my mind.

Still i'm not ramming it in their faces, at least .

They'll grab you by the arms and ram it in their own faces if you give them half a chance, though... And then, naturally, blame you.

@Becky, Hmm, I don't think WoW/Eq are anywhere near as good as MMORPGs can get, so perhaps you are referring to the potentiality? But yeah, TBH from the (very) limited) amount of stuff I've heard about LFS <-> R2P, perhaps it's not LFS that should be considered as 'elitist'.

drunken ramblings of Cpt. Morgan :-D

AndroidXP, thank you. I did not know that exsisted And yes that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking to find, have shown to me.

Tag and Becky, I guess my thing is that I just don't understand why one game has to be better than the others. Who cares? I can have fun in any racing game. Does it make me less of a "hardcore" simmer to enjoy playing Burnout with my girlfriend, or even by myself for that matter? I'd think not. But by reading posts here it certainly makes ME feel like most people here view themselves as better than me because of MY choice in games. I don't see the point in comparing difference between games either. I've never understood that amongst any of the various sim communities. I play the games because they are fun and I enjoy racing.

I've had some GREAT races in various games and mods over the years and I don't think any one sim has provided me more fun than any other. So why does everyone seem to have to either love everything BUT LFS or only LFS? I really like LFS but if my man league of choice (TPTCC for those that care) were to switch to it I don't think I'd like it as much. I really do enjoy running around real tracks, really. It gives me something to relate to.

I don't view the LFS tracks as fantasy tracks, per se, so much as real tracks that I've just never seen. The cars are all close enough to something real that I don't care that they are fake. But, IMHO, it would lose something to switch most of my sim racing to a game that, right now, doesn't have any real tracks.

Jason

Quote from kart38 :

Tag and Becky, I guess my thing is that I just don't understand why one game has to be better than the others. Who cares? I can have fun in any racing game. Does it make me less of a "hardcore" simmer to enjoy playing Burnout with my girlfriend, or even by myself for that matter? I'd think not. But by reading posts here it certainly makes ME feel like most people here view themselves as better than me because of MY choice in games. I don't see the point in comparing difference between games either. I've never understood that amongst any of the various sim communities. I play the games because they are fun and I enjoy racing.

It's just human nature I suppose... Like I said about the foreign policy.
You are, of course, free to play whatever you enjoy. When we're talking about other sims, we're doing it in relation to LFS. Yes, the physics are unrealistic in iSi titles, some more than others. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. The point is, we feel that the physics in LFS are the 'most realistic' (notice I didn't say 'best') to date. Not only that, but we have graphs, replays, video comparisons, etc, etc, that support that claim. The problem starts (and that is really the root of our apparent hostility towards iSi games) when others come and bash our physics when all evidence points to the contrary. We are not better than you in any way. After all it is just a 'game'. It's all turned into a championship football match, it seems. We're the away team and the underdogs, so we have to yell harder in here where it's safe

Quote :

I've had some GREAT races in various games and mods over the years and I don't think any one sim has provided me more fun than any other. So why does everyone seem to have to either love everything BUT LFS or only LFS? I really like LFS but if my man league of choice (TPTCC for those that care) were to switch to it I don't think I'd like it as much. I really do enjoy running around real tracks, really. It gives me something to relate to.

It's not that you have to love LFS or get out or anything. I like the occasional blast around Spa in GPL or NR2003S. Many people enjoy other sims, including me.

Quote :

I don't view the LFS tracks as fantasy tracks, per se, so much as real tracks that I've just never seen. The cars are all close enough to something real that I don't care that they are fake. But, IMHO, it would lose something to switch most of my sim racing to a game that, right now, doesn't have any real tracks.

As I stated on the Race boards. Eventually, the simulator with the most realistic physics will be the only one used, provided it supports modding and offers the same tracks and cars as all the other sims. We here strongly believe that will be LFS in the end. Nobody makes you switch before you want to switch. And if you feel 'unwanted' because you want to race real tracks, I'd like to apologise for the community. We're not out to bash other sims, perse, but we will defend ourselves against people that make false claims. If the other communities take that as offensive then so be it. We think we have proof that LFS is most realistic in its physics, and that is all we'll ever defend. For the rest we say "LFS isn't finished yet". Everything else you may read is just some person's opinion, which admittedly is sometimes stated as fact a bit too much.

Quote from TagForce :

When we're talking about other sims, we're doing it in relation to LFS. Yes, the physics are unrealistic in iSi titles, some more than others

That's exactly the kind of statment that true or not provokes people from other sims when you post it on their board, actually that's probably a more provokative thing to post than a detail explaination to why LFS does some things better than others. Physics is a broad term and to be fair there are some physics areas that LFS is diabolical at.

tbh the physics are tertiarry to where i'm coming from. I've been speaking in terms of online multipayer gaming. In this respect I dont think our 'most loved sim personality 2005', whome this post was mostly about, really understands the difference that LFS makes to the online experience.

That's why I was comparing LFS to be more like EQ/WoW and other games to be more traditional, in that multiplayer is a bolt on just like games you buy in a shop. With LFS it's integral, infact, single player in LFS is noteable by it's utter rubbishness.

This is of rellevent to the whole sim racing community.

Physics change, whilst i've been playing LFS they've changed quite a lot just within LFS, let alone the other sims that have arrived or are still about in the same time.

What hasn't changed yet is the way that LFS has the multiplayer angle so well covered, and to date, other sims just dont.

@Becky - Your right about your comparision between LFS and other sims in the multiplayer aspect.

Don't underestimate other sims online capability for organised races, N2003 is superior to LFS in some ways in this aspect, having less features it can run 42 cars and believe me it is awesome to power through Eau Rouge with 40 Group C cars around you. Due to LFSs dogged determination to eliminate lag by calculating physics for every car you see (I love the concept) at least some of the further cars could really be done on a more traditional position of the car type of basis. The other tricks N2003 could do were fixed sets, locked aids, and private messaging.

That said the online collision model of N2003 could sometimes make LFS on a bad day look perfect. I once did a destruction derby in N2003, fairly ammusing results

Quote from ajp71 :

That's exactly the kind of statment that true or not provokes people from other sims when you post it on their board, actually that's probably a more provokative thing to post than a detail explaination to why LFS does some things better than others. Physics is a broad term and to be fair there are some physics areas that LFS is diabolical at.

Which is exactly why I post that here, and not somewhere else. The point is, that no matter WHAT you post somewhere else... If the letters LFS are anywhere in it, you're going to get flamed, especially when they know you play LFS.

Even if I were to post it somewhere else, that still doesn't make it a flamebait. It's simply an observation. And I back up my claims by showing them what exactly is wrong with it. Even the people playing that sim themselves claim that part of the physics is wrong, but when I state the exact same I get flamed for being an "lfs-fanboy". THAT is *not* our problem.

Edit:
NR2003S is indeed superior to LFS in online play. I especially liked the ranking on the sierra servers... Which is probably why I love Becky's system so much. The collision system actually wasn't half bad. It was worse on road courses though. I suppose detecting collisions is easier on ovals.

Quote :

at least some of the further cars could really be done on a more traditional position of the car type of basis

LFS does actually use two physics models. "Complex" is used for you and the two cars infront, and "Simple" is used for the rest. I'm not sure if the two car's ahead thing changes later on in the race, as i've not noticed Scawen saying anything about it - I imagine beyond a certain distance ahead it switches to simple.

I think there are two reasons for the 20 car limit in LFS. I think partly it is/was part of the devs pre-planned progression from S1 to S3, in that S3 was always intended to support more.

Secondly, he hasn't yet fiddled with the way packets are sent - they are just sent on a timed interval - which an experienced network programmer will tell you is only half the hurdle. I suspect he'll enhance this further in S3 with some kind of control instancing to save bandwidth and make more than 20 cars possible.

I must admit, driving 40 car fields of group C cars DOES appeal to me. Quite a lot. Whether the physics suck or not .

Quote from Becky Rose :

I must admit, driving 40 car fields of group C cars DOES appeal to me. Quite a lot. Whether the physics suck or not .

NR2003S physics are different from LFS, but they do not *suck*, imo.
If I could find the darn mod installers again I'd give it a go myself. Used to be good at it.

N2003 was decent but I definatly wouldn't say the physics were amazing. Online play for me was very jumpy at best too.

there is some hostility torwards lfs players at rsc

this one time at band camp ... i mean the nkp section i commented on how it was predestined to go down in flames (i did word it a lot nicer) with the complete absence of any form of open beta ... i was shot down for being an lfs fanboy although i didnt even say those nasty 3 letters

any indy project needs a long open beta period imho ... as do mmos
on neither of those the developers will ever be able to pay for the large amount of betatesters needed to get the project rolling (for mmos it would be thounsands of testers working simultaneously)

becky if 40 group c cars sounds good to you and you like the physics of any papy sim you should give nr2k3 a try

Quote from Shotglass :

this one time at band camp ... i mean the nkp section i commented on how it was predestined to go down in flames (i did word it a lot nicer) with the complete absence of any form of open beta ... i was shot down for being an lfs fanboy although i didnt even say those nasty 3 letters

Probably a slightly different situation there seeing as nK was destined for disaster whenever which idiot decided it was ready said so, it wasn't even ready to be a public release of any kind let alone a finished paying sim. To be fair it had just been cracked by a member of this community and there were plenty of (possibly unfair) critisms of its only strength (half decent) physics that did seem to be directed from a member of this community who I once read a post from someone who said they thought this person was a secret ambasador for the devs (I really hope that's bullshit ). Add to that the fact that nK was blatantly dieing its the kind of reaction you'd expect.

Quote from ajp71 :

To be fair it had just been cracked by a member of this community

ahahaha. if u mean myself, no matter how many times u spin that lie it wont become true. a legal rename of a file suffix you have on your hd is not a crack. also it wasnt me that discovered it and let it out in the open first. hell not even second or third. but hey if u really want to innacurately blame me for the whole nkp fiasco and disaster, be my guest. it wont make it true though
it was just another screw up by the mussolini, among sooooooo many others over the years. you could build an accurate mathematical pattern of disaster just based on the whole nk story.

Kid you may not have discovered the 'legal rename of a file' but that last post explains why the nK fanatics looked to you when they needed a person/group to blame for their failure.

Quote from ajp71 :

Probably a slightly different situation there seeing as nK was destined for disaster whenever which idiot decided it was ready said so, it wasn't even ready to be a public release of any kind let alone a finished paying sim.

who are you and what did you do with ajp ?

Quote from Shotglass :

who are you and what did you do with ajp ?

LMAO... I was just thinking the same thing...

Quote from Shotglass :

who are you and what did you do with ajp ?