Quote from biggie :

Errrm.... how about making Leo shout for S2 final then? :P

I bet that Leo will learn first to say #include<stdstream> than mommy... hehehehe


Anyway, congrats Scawen ! :drink:

He could try a analog gamepad + mouse setup like I used some time ago. I could be as fast as I am using a wheel. I used the analog stick from the gamepad as throttle/brake combined, and mouse to steer.


This kind of config I don't know if it's possible to use with other simulators.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I've said this before but...

I got the DFP because the Momo didn't have enough buttons. I use 400 degrees of rotation and that's quite nice to have, but I wish the stupid shift paddles didn't suck so much. The other day I downshifted twice from 6th gear in the MRT and found myself in 1st. I managed to do the same thing on the same corner a few laps later.

The wheel is sort-of notchy-feeling, but I imagine all wheels at this price are much the same. Other than that (and the stupid paddles) I don't have any complaints about it.

That happenes a lot with my MS wheel, the way that I prevented it was pressing the paddle exactly in the middle. When it started to give too much problems, I changed the switch (could find one exactly like the original as replacement on a electronics store).


How are the possible rotation configurations for DFP ? Can I use 240 degrees ? It look like pretty dumb using lower rotation, but I believe that driving the FO8 with 900 degrees of rotation, even with wheel turn compensation in 1.0, is probably impossible.

Quote :

or just links to the actual posts

I'll do that, but I'm a bit out of free time on weekdays due to my new job, and other activities so you will have to wait a bit.


Anyway, the replies that I've collected (and will collect more if I find) are all about the current LFS state. Most of the things will become outdated as long as a new patch is released, but when that happens, I think that it will take a long time to start the complaining threads in the forum.


And although outside the original topic, they have their meaning almost untouched unless ppl try to extract underneith info that do not exist.

well, I actually don't care much about the 900º rotation, but the DFP have more buttons than the Momo black, that looks interesting.


but I would trade the extra buttons and 900º rotation easily for more precision and faster controller response, as well a better feedback. IMO the MS ff wheel lacks a faster response and precision on the pedals, but the wheel itself has a very good precision and fast answers.


about the noises, every FF wheel make noises, so I'm quite used to it.

Quote :

The point of this thread is to find all Scawen's posts and combine them into a single thread containing all the "info". The problem is that you take some random posts and try to "read them out" like there were some special info inside. Having a thread like this may also make Scawen to post less because all his words are looked through looking glass to find any info about LFS. When there is no info. They are just random posts

And as a such contains no new/old info...

You are not wrong, but there are some hidden info in this forum, that ppl is supposed to know before complaining, but as they are hidden, most of who complain don't know ( me included ) and who try to flame who complains know.


This thread is intended to avoid specially newcomers from complaining about issues that devs already know or are working on, but they've stated between some old posts.


These are some "random" replies, but their meaning are still valid although out of the original post. But ppl should not try to find information underneith the words, just get the message that is clearly stated.


And let's avoid complaining or posting comments here, let's keep this the "clarifying post".

Quote :

IMO this warrants a sticky

I hope so

Quote from LFS official website :

If you want access to all cars and tracks in S2, you have to buy a license, which will allow you to unlock S2 on your computer.

So, the license stands for the extra content. The LFS' engine (graphics, physics, sounds, multiplayer system and etc) is for "free". What you pay is for the extra cars and tracks, not the physics updates, because they are for everyone (including demo racers, that pays nothing to play the demo).

one more

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks. It's simple enough, LFS exists because we chose a way of working, to take our time and make the program we want. The design decisions and direction are led by interest, our ideas and experiments and also influenced a lot by requests and ideas from the community.

The money that we can make, although an important consideration, is simply not the primary driving force. If it was, then we should do something completely different, something mainstream. There are a lot of easier ways to make money. We're doing this because we like what we do. We don't want to change our partnership, form a limited company, start hiring programmers, artists, receptionists and accountants. That's not what we're here for and it's not why LFS exists. We've specifically left that kind of job.

Making a racing sim takes a long time. It's taken so much time for so many years, that we have allowed the rest of our lives and houses to decay a bit around us. So, it's sometimes a bit hard to take, when we see the amount of attacks that we receive when we take a bit of time to sort things out. I just can't understand what's the rush! We're working on a sim, which gets updated every few months. Sometimes progress is faster than at other times. You get things in the end. Most people understand that, they are happy to have the sim in its current state. But a few people are so impatient, it's amazing, and they have to come up with all these ideas about how we should do things differently, change our lives, even give up our whole lives and anything we want to do, in order to grow LFS as fast as possible. But from our point of view that's just quite strange really.

I shouldn't really need to explain this again, but i can see that the impatience level is rising again. Just relax, there will be new physics at some point when i've had time to work on the aero and the tyres, involving plenty of experimentation and testing. There will be updates from Eric as well. How long it will take, i don't know. If LFS bores you for now, just do something else for a while. You'll get a news letter from us when there's a patch.

Thanks to those who do explain this to people. It's a strange effect, this impatience thing, it seems to be seen often in gaming communities, a few angry guys putting huge pressure on developers for release dates, immense anger when the dates slip or features are cut, then it's even worse when things are rushed out before they are really finished. Gamers need to understand that it just takes a long time to write computer games and simulations. And always longer, year after year, as the complexity increases.

A little word about the tyres.

Quote :

Quote:
Originally Posted by SladiVadi
May I ask what's so bad about the tyres?


Originally Posted by Scawen:
Well they are close to behaving correctly at all times, but not quite as good as real world tyres in some conditions.

It's mainly about some things they do when they are near their limit of grip, and just over the limit, and how it's affected by applying and removing the power.

BTW, if anyone asks me for more detailed answers, i won't give any. Nothing's clear until i've coded up several testing mechanisims, tyre test rigs and so on when i get back on the case with the physics.

Hi,


Don't know if it has already been suggested, but it would be nice if in the server selection screen, a little box showing the version that you are running, and the latest released version, so that the newcomers that download a old version see that they are not running the latest version, and the ppl that don't check frequently the forum or the official website and don't have signed the newsletters in order to get information about latest released version.


That would help to avoid the community splitting that Scawen have mentioned when a new version is released, because some ppl don't know that they are using a old version.


I believe that it would be a simple thing to implement

Well, I'm opening this thread to try to compile some relevant information about LFS development from Scawen's post that can explain the situation of LFS and why the devs are acting the way they are, that are hidden in the middle of big topics, and ask I for your help to do that (since I don't have the time or the patience needed to research on all Scawen's replies). And please let your own comments or other things to other threads.

The reason for that is that not everyone should every reply from every post, and I feel that there are some important information, that we are supposed to know when discuss about the LFS development, but not everyone know due to that.

I will start with some words from the official LFS website, just to clarify the goal of LFS for the newcomers.

Quote from LFS official website :

Live for Speed is a small development team dedicated to making the best online racing simulator

Quote from LFS official website :

LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving.

And then Scawen's words

Quote from Scawen :

I'm closing this thread. Too many threads on the same subject. Anyone who wonders what's going on, thinks we are very slow, wants us to hurry up, or whatever, please continue to discuss on the existing thread :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4933

The devs are all alive and working on LFS, and we'll post when there's something interesting to say. As ever, we are working on the things we've said we're working on, and also some other experiments along the way, sometimes giving rise to new things we haven't mentioned before. That's the way LFS is developed, it's the reason LFS is here, and the way it will continue.

And just something about people saying "We have paid for a full version". Please understand, we don't sell versions, we sell licenses. You paid for a S2 license, and you have it! That means you can unlock the S2 content in any S2 release that is available. There is no specified release date for the full version and there never has been.

I'm sorry we can't just bring out releases and improvements at an extremely high speed, but that's just not how software development is. Also, we don't want to keep posting progress reports, about nothing. So little noteworthy things happen in one month... but unfortunately the forum just flares up every month and finally i have to come here and declare that we are still alive, etc...

Again, we are working on LFS and will report when there is anything interesting to say! Thanks!

and

Quote from Scawen :

Could some people please stop thinking that the only reason they don't get physics updates is because of hotlaps. SPRs and hotlaps being made invalid are only one reason. But i'm seeing the same thing mentioned all over the place, some myth that hotlaps are stopping people getting new physics updates.

If there is any change in physics, there is an ONLINE COMPATIBILITY issue. Old physics and new physics cannot join together. Some people will download the test patch, and some people will upgrade their hosts. So then the people with the new version, would be all alone in their sub-community of people who like to get incompatible test patches. So then they'll say "we like the new physics" and some other people will start to get the new patch. Meanwhile, the people who never heard about the new patch, will wonder where everyone's gone. Then we'll discover a bug in the new physics so hundreds of people will be annoyed that they got the test version and didn't wait for the final version. Then a new patch will come out with some more improvements. People will wonder whether they should get the new one or not.

Then what you can't imagine is the anger that starts to be stirred up. Posts all over the web on different forums and shout boxes "why are there so many stupid patches" and "what is wrong with these developers". For some people it's a big effort to download a patch, and it makes them angry and uneasy.

Compatible test patches are very easy, get them if you want to, no disruption to the community. So it makes sense to do as many compatible things as possible (which need to be done anyway - it's bad when people can't type in their own language) before starting on and releasing physics changes, changes to car models and tracks, and other online compatibility changes. Anyway, how could i code physics changes, at the same time as updating the language support? I can only do one thing at a time.

So, as we always say, and as we have learned from experience, incompatible patches are kept to the minimum, due to the community distruption they cause. Compatible test patches can be released freely and that's the time when many game updates are done. When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.

calm down Soro..... we can't have everything......

and I think that we can live without weather effects until S3.

Now it's me that am thinking about a new wheel.

I had 2 MS ffb wheels, but the first stopped working due to an electronics fault (actually it works for some minutes, than the communication with the pc starts to fail, until it simply acts as disconnected), and the second has already got worn.



Now I'm thinking on buying a DFP or a black Momo.


One thing that I don't like about the MS wheels is that the pedal response is a bit slow (like the communication rate is not enough). And for me, I give 90% of importance to precision of the wheel and pedals.


DFP has lots of buttons and 900 degrees rotation (that may be useful for something someday), but the black momo is highly rated for it's precision (the red momo as some says is the king, but pretty impossible to buy one from here).


So, how DFP compares with black Momo regarding precision and fast responses ? And do DFP have any issue with other simulators for PC (since I'm not willing to buy a wheel just for LFS) ?

Quote from Vykos69 :

What maybe, but When prolly not.

well, the last progress report before S2 demo launch we had an estimate date..


I think that I've been having problems to agree with ppl here in this forum lately

Quote :

After all the thing is that the devs don't want to post progress report so they don't post progress report.

Now all that we can do is to hope that the devs have soon something interesting to report, to give us an idea of what is gonna come and when.


And meantime, I think that I will give my wheel a rest. It's my second MS wheel, and it's already failing due to too much use (yes, I made 2 microsoft ffb wheels get worn due too much driving on LFS). Maybe I'll buy a Momo racing, but I have to make a bit more money to that, or take the two wheels and make one with the good parts (well, I've already removed some parts from the old wheels, apart the buttons that I had to change all of them from the 2nd wheel because they got worn, but there are still some good parts to use).


And hope that a new patch get released, and that my future 3rd wheel lasts until I S3 is lauched.

Quote from Dragger :

since i broke my steering wheel my passion has not been the same.

doesnt stop me though! lol

I broke two microsoft steering wheels driving on LFS.... (actually on the second the cable that connects the wheel with the base got worn and is with bad contacts due too much use, and in the first, the pcb burned).

I was already loosing interest on LFS due to the bugs, and now, I have another reason to not driving on LFS.


But I have to admit that I got too much addicted on LFS...

but then it's something that is due to the nature of these cars, instead something that apply to all other cars.


ok, some cars (not talking about rc or any other type of small scaled cars) may have advantages running locked diffs, but on LFS almost all cars have advantages when running locked differentials, and I still think that it's unrealistic.

Quote :

The balance of public alpha/beta testing to private testing is just about right IMO.

Don't forget that we only have this version of LFS on our hands is because someone leaked a private (and buggy) test version (that I could get on e-mule and test, and if I'm not wrong, was the patch K, that run very slow compared with the version that we have today, and had some debug information on the screen), and they hurried to launch a version (that was the first S2 demo) in order to stop the leaked and buggy version to spread all over the internet and scratch the image of the new LFS engine.


If this leaked version were not released, we would probably still using S1 physics and content. So if we have the S2 physics today, it is most probably because someone leaked one version (it can be also a coincidence)



[edit]

And Scawen could also put a sticky thread with the "report" that he did on the other thread, so that it become visible for everyone, and not in the middle of a locked thread that soon will be on 3rd or 4th page and will not be seen by everybody.

Last edited by Mogar, Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:33.

Quote :

I just feel little surprized that we hear nothing. LFS is made by three developers and the biggest difference to the mega corps like EA is the connection to the community. That connection seems to be one way atm.

Great point, and this is what I think that some who try to flame me here in the forum didn't understand about the LFS developing process. And IMO, the 2-way communication with the community is over, for ever, what's a shame. They're starting to want to act like a big company, without being one (and I and a lot of users here DON'T want that this happens).




And looking for the Scawen's reaction to Xcnuse thread, it just makes me think that the Devs really don't want to communicate with the community, just receive bug reports, and that's it. And their argument that it's to avoid loosing their time, well, Scawen just spent his time writting one line and closing a thread. A much effective way to make ppl here shut up whinning would be spend this line with a kind of feedback for us.

[edit]


Finally something about the LFS development. Although it tells nothing that we didn't know before, at least reinforced that the devs
are putting their efforts on LFS project.


And for those that thought that the "shhh... devs are working" philosphy would make them post a kind of progress report faster or make a new patch be released sooner, I think that all this noise that me and some users here did had a kind of positive result.


The more "2-way" the relationship between the devs and the community is, the better to LFS, at least IMO

Quote :

And if the brazilians really have to pay 1/3 of monthly income to be able to buy LFS, they have got all my support. Consider paying that much money and think would you actually pay it?

This is not a reality for at least those brazilians who post in this forum. We have a monthly income much higher than the minimum wage in our country (or else we wouldn't be able to have broadband, wheel for our pcs, etc), but the impact in our finances is still much bigger than to a standard north american guy. And if you take in count standard or minimum wages, there are ppl here even in worse conditions.

I believe that the discussion about LFS is above price, it's about the pleasure to drive in LFS. I believe that the price discussion is worth for other games.... LFS is not in this category.

Last edited by Mogar, Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:10.

Quote from [RCG]Boosted :

hey, u gotta remember, there is only 1 programmer working on this game!
think about gt4! they needed 3 years for the game and they had over 3000 ppl working on it.
and now look what 3 ppl did in a short time!

on a project like gt4, there is a lot of modelers, producers, ppl to make the commercial contracts, and other variables that LFS don't have, or have on a much smaller size. and also if I'm not wrong, LFS started several years ago, from some experiments that Scawen had done just for fun, that inspired him on extend the project.


Although the problems, LFS is a very respectable piece of software if you take in count that only 3 guys are responsible for it.

Quote from Shotglass :

i do have lots of expierience with rc cars and their drivetrains and trust me on this ... all 1/8 on road sportscars have no diffs (the only thing they use is a freewheel at the belt => axle joint in the front) ... a was a bit shocked when i found out too especially as most smaller rc cars use diffs
but i guess a ball diff would slip way too much with a nitro engine and locking a gear diff is probably too complicated at that size (and the clutch plates would probably wear in no time)

Humm... so it's kind of a limitation of this kind of car rather than a real advantage to use locked diffs.

Quote :

I don't get which bit of LFS's development style people (Brazilians) can't understand.

Sometimes I think that you have not read the words on the LFS official website about what is LFS.

Quote :

If you can't drive because of the weird low speed grip, then learn to drive cos it doesn't bother me often

I didn't complain about low grip, even on S1 days, and I still think that overall the cars have even more grip then they should. And I can drive with low grip quite above average.


The problem is the arcadish look that LFS got after so many months of bug exploit research that some have done, that resulted on everyone exploiting bugs. That made me loose interest on driving on LFS at least until something that recover the simulator atmosphere to LFS is done.

I look for a simulator, not a game, and for me, don't matter if it's LFS or any other software, what I want is a simulator with a simulation atmosphere, and not a simulator with arcadish atmosphere.

Too bad that there is no other simulator good enough until LFS recovers the simulation atmosphere.

Last edited by Mogar, Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:53.

Quote :

and lets not forget that all 1/8 onroad cars use lockes diffs (or rather no diffs at all) and those are by far the fastes rc cars

I have little experience with rc cars (competition rc cars, not rc cars just for fun), but I've seen a couple of races, and the drivers were not using locked diffs or no diffs.

I refuse to think that the devs are so busy that they can't even write 2 or 3 lines to tell what they've been doing (what would take less than 5 minutes).


If they don't have time even for this, they don't have time to make food, go to supermarket, go to the restroom, drink water...... And we all know that they do their own time, if they don't have time to write to us spending less than 5 minutes per month, is because they don't want to do that, not because they don't have time



And ok, they are going to work on physics, but the depth of their work is unknown for us. We don't know if they will just fix the aero bug, or fix the differentials, or both, or will make a huge rework on the whole physics (including collisions, damage system and etc) and will only give us a patch when everything is done, and if they decide to do such big rework, I doubt that we will have a patch on the next 3 or 4 months (unless when you say few months, you are comparing with 48 or more months).


So, the future of LFS is totally unknown for us. We just know that in the future it will probably better, and only that..... when and how, no one (unless the devs themselves or the beta testers) know. And they look like to like this situation

Last edited by Mogar, Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:25.

Quote :

4. People check the forums to see wether work is being done, but they find no indication.
5. People want to know why the devs maintain radio-silence.

these 2 reasons are what made me start to complain in this forum, and I believe that a lot of ppl that complain here is due to these 2 reasons.