A lot of the discussions in this thread have been around some aspects of IRacing like, their price, their subscription model, their racing system, their different aproach to simracing in general and not about the software itself. Most of the information is available for anyone who wants to form an opinion about IRacing without having to try it. Besides that, I think that the discussion has been carried out in a civil way and with respect for the different views stated here... The fact that we can have this kind of discussion about IRacing in the LFS forum should be praised and not closed to only one side of the arguments or it would be better to close it here and let Iracing users and supporters carry on this thread in their own foruns.
I think that´s exactly what we don´t need at this point... Instead of a few selected opinions from the beta testers, we would have thousands of opinions from every "car expert" in this forum, and when the car was released everybody would have a reason to not be happy about it, because their suggestion wasn´t implemented. So, I think is time to let LFS devs do their work, and I must admit that what happen today with this announcement and the response from the majority of LFS users really made me proud for being a member of this community.
Please read again the first 2 posts you made in this thread, that I quoted below... And then please explain us what you mean by responding in a grown up way...
Seeing that none of the work made by Kunos, like the Osella and Trento-Bodone, and the Singtel F1 simulator, ever made it to the public version of Netkar, I´m willing to guess that the closest you´ll get to seeing the Abarth in Netkar, in the near future, will be on Youtube, on the videos of the Bologna Motorshow. And since you, as far as I know, haven´t driven the Scirocco in LFS, what makes you think the Solstice is a better car. After all the Solstice is less powerful than the Scirocco and wheights more or less the same...
But then, I guess that when it cames to being negative about LFS, every argument is valid.
Maybe you could try and enlighten us a bit more about "what us racers" means, and what cars do you have to drive, to be worthy to be a member of such an exclusive and elite club.
I guess it all depends on the perspective in what you see things. The ones that are still happy with LFS and enjoying it, will see it in a positive way, and the ones that are unhappy and bored with LFS will see it in a more negative way. Maybe none of this two perspectives is wrong, and there´s wright reasons in both. Since I prefer to be positive, let me name some of the reasons why the inclusion of the Scirocco (and also the FBM) are good to LFS:
- these kind of deals represent a recognition of LFS and can lead to other deals that can bring new content to LFS
- the introdution of real cars is something that of lot of people has been asking, and can lead to a greater exposure of LFS, wich could mean more sales. Besides that, there´s a lot of people that never bought LFS and prefered other sims because of the lack of "real" content
- the information received by the devs, in the development of these cars can be helpful in the future changes and additions to LFS, and would problably be much harder to get without them
- there´s been a great improvement in the quality of the models in LFS, wich was something that a lot of people complained about, specialy comparing to other sims. Let´s just hope that this kind of improvements can be extended, in the near future, to the other models
Altough in theory that may be right, I think is much easier said than done. After all their current system of racing, is one of their main selling points, and problably the one that justifies the most, the fact that you´re paying a subscription, since the content is paid separately. To open up to another type of racing would mean, if it was done on their servers, more work and harder to keep things in control, because people would race more "freely". If they let users have their own servers and run their own leagues, then a lot of people would start to wonder why they need to pay a subscription for a system they don´t use. So, even if the number of subscribers doesn´t reach the number they need to make their product profitable, and they are forced to open up their system to try to get more people in, it won´t be an easy decision to make...
First of all, thanks for such a well tought and well written post. Altough I still can´t see what´s so special and different in IRacing. After all, besides the laser scanned tracks, what has IRacing done that hasn´t been done before, even considering that they might have done it a little better... I also see that you have a lot of faith in their development, wich leads to question why, after 5 years of development and millions of dollars spent, some features are still missing, and what evidence is there that they will achieve it in a short period of time. So, I can only offer you an advice... Try to look at IRacing based on what it is, and not based on your frustation with LFS. I sincerely hope that the people in the IRacing staff work to have a product that will succeed based on their strenghts and not on there competitors weakness, or they will fail completely...
The same way you can compare a Renault Clio with a BMW serie 5. After all they're both cars... But I don´t think people expect the same from one or the other. The point I was trying to make, is that, when you launch a product that´s much more expensive than the competition, you really need to deliver something special and substancially better than everything else. I really don´t think IRacing has achieved that, and once the novelty and marketing "crap" wears off, people will start to look to IRacing with a different perspective... So, instead of announcing new cars and tracks, to make subscribers spend even more money in IRacing, they should concentrate in optimizing their simulator, so it really stands out from their competition. Otherwise, I believe that their userbase, will stay the same that already is, or even became smaller when people start to think twice before renewing their subscription.
If you consider that a IRacing user, that wants to progress in their carreer in IRacing, will problably spend in one year alone, more or less, 5 times the cost of an S2 license, it´s clear to see that there shouldn't be any kind of chance of comparing the two, or even think IRacing is a competitor to LFS. For me, that´s the biggest challenge that IRacing has to face in the near future. I believe that they may have a good product, but if they want to really grow their userbase, they really need to take it to another level, and that´s not an easy task, even if you have a lot of money to spend or a lot of people to work. Most of the times there´s a real difference in what we can do and what we really do...
Sorry, but I don´t think that you honestly believe, that the content that was released after IRacing went public was created in the last 6 months... I´m pretty sure most of it was finished or almost finished by that time. But having a subscription model is much better to keep releasing new stuff to keep users motivated and willing to renew their subscriptions. Besides that, since you pay for cars and tracks, releasing things this way, will make people buy it, just because they´re "new", even if they don´t need it for the progress in their IRacing carreer, thus generating a steady flow of income. So, for me, what you call development speed, I call business strategies. To talk about development speed, I think that we need to wait a little longer and see if many of the missing features in IRacing, compared to what exists in other simulators are implemented or not, and if they are able to implement some features that aren´t present in any other sim...
The question is, even if a driver is racing alone, because there was no one at the server the time the race started or because everybody crashed during the race, he should have the right to finish his race, if that´s what he wants. This is specially true in endurance days... What´s the point in starting a race that´s going to last about half an hour, if you don´t know if we´ll be alowed to make it to the end, because of people who can´t drive 2 laps without crashing or because people that join the server and can´t wait 10 or 15 minutes to join a race?...
You can´t really compare them both since they're more than 20 years apart. Those cars, like Hannu Mikkola says in the beginning of the video that Zeug posted, could drive around a track close do the times F1 cars did back then. Don´t think we could say the same about modern WRC. Those cars were just too fast, too powerful, too dangerous and too demanding for the drivers, and because of that, they were banned. And the way the public felt about rally at that time was just pure madness. Nothing comparable to what we have today...
Same here... Seeing them live is an experience that I don´t believe any motorsport fan could forget...
Couldn´t follow the last 2h of the race live, but I´m watching the stream provided above, and I just want to congratulate everybody involved in this broascast. It´s been a massive improvement over the last ones, and for sure great to watch, even if you don´t belong to one the teams racing.
zero_0, Luis Barbosa, Portugal
Falcon_PT, Nelson Marques, Portugal
GTR_PT, Pedro Marques, Portugal
Bessa74, Rui Bessa, Portugal
[SNEK], Paulo Ferreira, Portugal
A. Araujo, André Araújo, Portugal
Have to admit that everytime I see a statement like this, or a thread like this one, I always get the feeling that I might´ve missed something and that all the other sim titles have advanced tremendously without me knowing it. So let me make this little comparison exercise, and feel free to correct me, if I say something wrong, since I don´t play this other games:
Iracing - cost several times more than LFS, 5 years in development, millions of dollars spent and was released without pit stops, no flag system, no driver changes, and so no chance for endurance racing, no mechanical damage that I'm aware of, no weather changes, no real clutch simulation... But for what some people say, it´s as real as it gets... Netkar Pro - the most similar to LFS in terms of concept and development team. After more than 2 years from its release, users are still waiting for a patch that solves some of problems that were present in the release and that lead to a very small community of players. It looks like this patch is coming soon, but no one knows if is still in time for this simulator to grow, or what kind of future it will have in terms of development... RFactor - development has stoped since the release of patch 1.255 in 10 Dec 2007. It looks there´s an RFactor 2 coming, but at least that I´m aware of, there´s still no time frame set for its release, or what features will be present. Don´t think that we can say that it is, in its current state, better than LFS, except for the fact that we can create mods for the game, wich is another thing discussed to death in this forum, and that we know it won´t happen soon in LFS. GTR EVO - the latest Simbim/Blimey (never know wich one makes what), titlle. Never played it, but it just looks another re-release of the same game that´s being sold, with some minor changes and updates since GT Legends (GT Legends, GTR2, Race, Race07, GTR EVO).
So, in it´s current state is it possible to race in LFS, with enough and well developed features, the same way or better than the other sims available in the market? YES.
Does LFS have any major bugs or flaws that prevent the use of the software, the way it's intended to be used? NO.
Is there any real, undeniable fact, like a statement from the devs, that the development has stopped or is slowing down? NO.
Of course that, LFS needs some of its features to be improved, that some need to be introduced, that new content is added, to keep people interested in the game. No doubt about it... But what I can´t accept is that people say that there´s no future for LFS, or that development has stopped, just because they got bored of game... LFS is a racing game, and a good race is always a good race, and depends much more of the people we´re racing with, than the track or the car you´re using. And there´s still the chance of good races in LFS, the same way it was before, as long has we find the right place and the right people to race with, being it in some public server, or the CTRA, or some of the many well organized leagues that exist in the LFS community. And this depends much more of each one of us than the devs of LFS...
It´s only easy to conclude, because you want it to, but the history, if based in facts, is quite different:
version W - released Mar 31st 2007
version X- released Jun 8th 2007
version Y - released Dez 21st 2007
version Z - released Jul 2nd 2008
So, if you look at those dates, you´ll see that latest patches were about 6 months apart, and Z was released more or less 5 months ago. I didn´t see anywhere that we won´t have a new patch coming at the end of this year, or any sign of development stoping or even slowing down... In fact, there has been two updates, this month only, regarding the dedicated host, to solve bugs that were reported. Don´t know what you conclude of that, but to me it doesn´t look like an indication that there´s nothing to report.
I must admit that, altough I think that people have the right of stating their views on the future of LFS, all this talk has became quite repetitive and boring, like ,that because some people got bored with LFS, they need to try and create the notion that everybody feels the same, and that LFS is heading to a slow death...
Just a small mistake I found in the standings. From 4th place it goes to 6th place, so there´s no 5th place, wich makes 18 places in the standings, when there are only 17 competitors in GT1.