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B2B@300
Quote from CodeLyoko1 :If you can prove me they do simulate it, please prove me wrong. But every direction I ask and search, there it either says it doesn't simulate it or there is nothing about it that it does.

I quote Todd from a thread in iRacing forum post date 8/12/2011, Todd is well respected and considered well versed in the subject in question both here and there.

Quote from Todd Wasson :All tire models use deformation to produce the forces if they use slip angle, slip ratio, and vertical compression as input. Rendering it graphically is another thing. The deformations in the animation may come to some extent, or totally from the tire model that produces the forces in the physics model, or they may not.

Either way, it's enough to fool the masses as evidenced by this thread

Another quote from Eric in this thread in which Todd also engaged in discussion at length "Goodyear NASCAR Tire InformationTechnical Inspection In"
http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/1856652.page

Quote from Eric Hudec :As I've said before the difference between a competition tire and street tires is it's carcass construction, including tread construction effects (plys, belts, aspect ratios, section widths, contact surface radii of curvature, thread depth, thread void area, tread width, etc.). Typically racing tires are much more mechanically stiff than street tires, so therefore the knee will happen earlier for similar load and inflation pressure cases compared to a street tire.

and another

Quote from Eric Hudec :It depends on the Kyaw of the tire in the particular set of input parameters on track. So I can't really answer with specifics without knowing the tire, or the condition in which it operates. The amount of shearing of the thread relative to the wheel, for a giving slip angle on a given tire, will depend paramountly on inflation pressure and vertical load - simplified to contact pressure (Fz/psi = lb/lb/in^2 = in^2) as well as the instantaneous yaw stiffness.

I think you can pretty easily ascertain that tyre flex is modeled in detail in iRacing and that is just from a 5 min search of forums so now doubt there is more on the subject.
B2B@300
Quote from CodeLyoko1 :do they simulate tire flex yet?

I'm certain tyre flex has been modeled from very early on it just hasn't been represented graphically - I'm sure your just trolling though :P.

Latest release talks about "- The tire model has an improved solver to find the amount of tread yaw under dynamic conditions (i.e. non-equilibrium). This has significantly improved transient behavior and tire response to changing loads."
which has the potential to change the feel a lot.

So if tread yaw is being modeled tyre flex would be pretty simple in comparison..
B2B@300
lol wasn't that bad for me but I am underwhelmed with mp online still at the moment. Has been some good improvements but have to agree with Eclipsed experience doesn't feel real.
B2B@300
Wow looks like it will be a nice upgrade tyre physics wise, looking forward to seeing how tyre derogation plays out over race distances
B2B@300
I have a friend from iRacing who has had the DK1 for some time, he also has a triple screen setup. With all the shortcomings of the DK1 he still chooses to use it over his triple screen setup and has been for many months.

I have had several discussions with him about his impressions and on the strength of that I pre-ordered the DK2 two months ago..

The level of immersion that it gives sounds second to none, I look forward to experiencing it, will let you know if it lives up to expectations
B2B@300
I agree it is very much personal opinion along with how much you are willing to commit to a particular sim in time behind the wheel and in getting your hardware configured into that sweet spot where it feels just right.

I have had the same feeling of being connected to the road in LFS, iRacing and AC, so that satisfaction can be achieved from any of these simms with time, effort and knowledge gained.

After several years away from LFS on returning for a few short test sessions I feel like LFS is ice racing (the very criticism many LFSers have of iRacing), but I know if I put the time into retuning my hardware setup and putting in seat time to retune my brain to LFS dynamics I would feel just as connected to the road again in LFS as I used too.

The same is true of iRacing after months away from it I find it difficult if not intimidating to feel the grip dynamics of the cars and struggle for the first session or two before regaining the feel I am accustomed to.

The difference with AC and what excites me most about it is after the initial issues of getting the hardware and software configured just right (which did take more effort than most simms) it doesn't need the same seat time to feel connected to the road (no ice feeling) it feels connected immediately. In both LFS and iRacing I am constantly struggling to feel grip initially until I regain a comfort level with the sim whereas with AC I don't have that struggle.

At the end of the day each of the sims has some very strong points that make them unique and I have really enjoyed my time in all of them. I don't think the ultimate decision on where you end up has as much to do with the physics (however physics has always been important to me) as it has to do with the interface or format of racing that each provides.

My wish though has always been to have a sim that is very accessible in its format of online racing (LFS is the best at this imo) and doesn't feel like ice to those that try it for the first time or return to it infrequently (i.e. I feel comfortable recommending it to real life race car drivers) thus far I haven't found such a sim although iRacing has got close and AC is very promising.
B2B@300
Quote from sinbad :I wonder what the average spend is per player.

Here is my spend:

Signed up Dec 2009 and membership expires March 2015
Have spent a total of A\$554.96 which includes all road content and very little of the oval content.
Therefore the Yearly average is A\$110.99 or \$9.25 per month

It should also be noted that I haven't participated in official racing much at all so have not received any participation credits which would reduce the spend a bit for active simmers.

The initial purchase of content is the biggest hit so for someone that buys it then discontinues with it after six months it is expensive no two ways about it, however if it remained an interest for a long period of time it becomes more reasonable.
I have had a good run at it now and feel I have had value for money. If I were just signing up for iRacing now with AC going multiplayer it wouldn't be the same equation though..
Last edited by B2B@300, . Reason : further thoughts
B2B@300
Quote from dawesdust_12 :But I guess that would mean reading text, and not looking at a giant picture.

I hate when you click a link and it requires a login. I've lost interest immediately. But I guess I also do not have enough interest to post asking what the link says either

Before you ask, yes I own AC and no I have never logged onto their forum. Between iRacing and here I have had no need
B2B@300
Quote from dawesdust_12 :The thing with iRacing is that the physics are so wrong/incomplete/non-useful when you are outside the limit. So to go fast, you have to "break" the physics by driving in an unrealistic manner to make sure that you don't break outside the limit and get into un-recoverable situations.

AC does handle the over-limit situations very well, like LFS does. All the "sims" that have been released in the last 6 years (rFactor, GTR, iRacing, etc) fail epically at that.

That makes a lot of sense, in iRacing I drive "breaking the physics" as you say to find the limit then drive just at that level or just below (driving by knowledge more than feel if you like) were with AC I can as many have said "lean on the tyres" and am driving as much by feel as knowledge.

Thats not to say I don't get feel in iRacing and at times I do feel at one with the car it just takes a heck of a lot more effort to feel that feeling in iRacing as the window of feeling grip and being utterly frustrated is so narrow. Where when you lose it in AC it is because you have obviously been pushing it too hard and leaning on those tyre too much.

LFS on the other hand has always felt good over the limit but perhaps a little to forgiving and the lead up to the limit has been perhaps a bit too smooth so that there is less feel overall than AC.

AC feels like it has that balance pretty spot on and along with excellent low speed grip it makes it the best driving experience physics wise I've experienced to date.

Excuse my rambling have been drinking while preparing a curry for dinner, I'll cease and desist now am really looking forward to what will happen with AC
over the coming months/years though if you haven't noticed
B2B@300
Quote from buedi :I´m lurking in this thread for quite a few weeks now and I cannot decide if AC is for me or not.

I was active in LFS from March 2004 to Dec 2009 and was originally drawn to it in my search for real life physics in a simulator. LFS delivered this well but when packaged with great online features it was/is a great sim.

I waited a long time before giving iRacing (Dec 2009) a shot and did like it's physics which have advanced a lot in recent times. iRacings physics are quite good now for example in the low speed area but I have always still missed the feel that LFS has at above the limit but was willing to live with it as iRacing did a reasonable job there and did everything else well. (I miss LFS's pick-up racing feature though)

AC is the best of the bunch physics wise and if the online content is even half decent it will be my new home for the foreseeable future. I have hardly touched iRacing since downloading AC, although I have only limited time that I can spend on a sim each week (2 -4 hrs average/week).

In my opinion AC physics is currently where we all wanted LFS physics to be back in 2006-2008 I had to fiddle a bit with the wheel and screen set-up but once that was to my liking I am really enjoying the AC physics.

Get the FFB settings to your liking and ensure you are not getting screen lag and you will feel like your home away from home

PS. Thats a very good point Da Hoe makes above AC is the only sim I can jump into and I do not need 6 -12 laps or more to tune into the feel of the sim.

In any other sim I feel like I am continually driving over the limit until my brain adjusts (iRacing especially but LFS is similar) where in AC I go out and drive what I think is a fast lap then have to push harder - rather than back off. It doesn't mean AC is easier in fact a lot have stated that it is as hard or even harder to find the ultimate edge it just feels more natural in the way you build up to fast lap times.
Last edited by B2B@300, .
B2B@300
Quote from R3DMAN :standard F40 on semi's @ Nurb GP..

amazeballs!

Thanks, gave that combo a run tonight definitely a whole lot of fun
B2B@300
Quote from Mysho :I have absolutely no time to try it due to my gf and my job.

I feel for you, I'm pretty much the same, except I'm married to a business.. oh and a wife

Sometimes though I just have to have a break and when I do AC is good for a run
B2B@300
Just tried the MP4-12C GT3 in AC, first time driving for a couple of weeks in either iRacing or AC and really enjoyed the driving experience.

I like the physics in both sims but what strikes me when I haven't driven much is that in AC the cars feel connected and I feel in-tune straight away. It still takes me a bunch of laps to really start pushing the limits but I don't feel frustrated by the experience.

Whereas in iRacing when I am in-tune with the feel of the sim it is great also and comparable but I find it a much more frustrating experience than in AC to get in-tune with the feel for grip. If that makes sense...

Anyway still really enjoying AC and looking forward to more to come
B2B@300
What a finish!
B2B@300
Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :Curious what you think after you do.

Hard to explain but the tires feel much less forgiving but much MORE forgiving at the same time somehow.

Had to go out for half the day so only have just had a chance to do some laps in the McLaren around Imola.

It doesn't have tonnes more grip and hence I'm not doing quicker lap times out of the box (my pb is a 1-52-87) I got back to the 52's again but still takes a lot of effort but easier to be constant than the previous patch.

The tyres are definitely giving me more feel at the limit than the previous patch so I concur with your view above. The transition between grip and no grip is smoother and I felt like I could read the optimal slip angle better while driving than previously (not so hit an miss), also the car was a little more forgiving under brakes and acceleration as I can better read/feel lock-up and wheel spin with new patch.

The other thing I noticed has changed is that previously I felt you needed to have more steering angle than what I felt was natural to be fast on certain corners/bends and with the new patch this seems to have improved somewhat.

I am liking it a lot, will hopefully get some time to test the 458 and F40 tonight
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B2B@300
Only tried the AI with the E30 so far and have to say I'm pretty impressed considering their early stage in development.
Most of the incidents I had were due to my own impatience and when driving properly they behaved well.
Did notice they yielded too much when you were in the right position though which is a bit boring and much like LFS AI behavior but overall I'm enjoying running with them

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :Judas Priest I'm not sure how much better the tires can get now.

Damn you BBT know I have to go do a few HL at Imola to quench my curiosity
Last edited by B2B@300, .
B2B@300
Quote from kars19 :Slower of course, don't remember exactly, I never seriously attempted to hotlap the 12c, I did put some 70+ laps with the regular 458, without driving aids, except abs, I did 1:53:998 (recorded on youtube) , Macca with aids was much easier and took me about 30 laps to get wr

That Idea to try mp4 with esp/tc on was after watching this 2012 McLaren MP4-12C: Engineer ... Wild - Ignition Episode 8

Did some testing in the 12c myself today with the following results:
TC = 2 and Stability 100% I achieved a 1:52:70 in about six laps, then
TC = 2 but with Stability Off I archived a 1:52:72 in about six laps again, then finally
TC Off Stability Off was able to hit a 1:52:87 but that was with a lot of effort probably about 20 laps or more with a lot more mistakes.

My general opinion on the various settings is that the TC is by far the most beneficial to confidence and lap times. I didn't like stability control much as it prevented rotation of the car when I was wanting and expecting it. TC without SC tended to allow me to use more of the track without getting into too much trouble while keeping a more neutral to over-steer balance.

With TC and SC off I found my concentration levels had to be amplified several fold really having to think constantly about where the grip was or wasn't with small mistakes costing much more than with TC on.

Surprisingly though SC and TC didn't net massively faster lap times out of the block but what they did do was make it easier to hit the target.
B2B@300
Quote from kars19 :done!

What times were you running without traction control and stability kars? I just cracked into the 52's as well but its a real challenge, could probably pull off a mid 52 with a bit more effort but that's pretty much my limit
B2B@300
I'm quite enjoying AC , looking forward to multiplayer. But am in no hurry as I don't get a lot of time for sims anyway and HL is fun already especially with the RSR app.

Thanks for the informative information in this topic everyone, between here and the iRacing thread on AC I've got it set up really well. Getting the setup right made a big difference.
B2B@300
another lurker
B2B@300
My perspective is this; I have long ago received my monies worth from LFS in fact I've received my monies worth multiplied by 100's. I have many many memories of friendship and battles fought in LFS with people from all over the world. If LFS stopped development today I'd feel sad but I definitely wouldn't feel ripped off.
I look forward to LFS developing more and have seen no reason why this wont happen and believe we will see more "when it's ready"
ps I voted with the account I use normally glenn67
B2B@300
heh nice to see SCCC still alive an kicking

So did Atomant fill this position?

Quote :we need someone who is social and has a psychological educated background

Last edited by B2B@300, .
B2B@300
Quote from Funnybear :LFS is the rare diamond in the coal field. Its the lone flower in a desolate waste land. Don't loose it. Cultivate it, support it. Suggest things, point out things, be helpful. But if your not happy, go somewhere else and stop trying to destroy what so many of us cherish and love for not only the thrill of the race but the backstory as well.

wot he said
B2B@300
Quote from GruntOfAction :If there's anything intresting...

Apparently the Italians have conquered mount hotlap
Strange how many have birthdays today!
B2B@300