I'm interested in this task of matching a reference image.

I think the approach is to start by aligning the reference image with the edge of the visible tyre.

The way I have done this, in order to reduce the number of flexible tyre triangles (which are very expensive as they are downloaded to the GPU every frame) I have started the visible tyre at a level which is the same as the outer diameter of the wheel rim. Not the "rim diameter" but total diameter of the wheel, including the "rim flange" that holds the tyre on.

So you can actually see that in the spoke editor if you go to "wire" view. You could align the reference image so the outer part of the rim is just visible inside the visible part of the tyre.

I understand there appears to be no simple way to continue to align the various "rings" of the rim with a reference image. Maybe there should be an equivalent of "wireframe" for the rim object.

I don't know if my rambling text can be followed. But this may be good stuff to include if I make a video.

You could try and do a 2 tri square with an alp texture in front and line up your points as a reference, I've done that in the editor before but not the spoke editor yet.

Thanks, that's good that you did the cleanup and reduced polygons.

As far as I can tell you have plenty of detail in the spoke object. But I would like to talk about the rim profile, for you and anyone else reading.

I really need to do a video about this but I had a cold during the holidays. Now I can talk normally again so maybe I should get on with it. I think the new rim editor is not well understood yet, and as it now has so much flexibility there is also potential for errors.

The rim editor contains a "STEEL RIM" profile shown in yellow which is the least amount of metal to make a rim. Alloys really have the same shape inside but have a different outside (thicker metal for strength, also potential for styling).

So taking your mod, the way you have done the new rim is really not correct for this wheel size. I've done a quick edit to show an example that is realistic in the rim area for this wheel diameter. Although there is a lot of variety in alloy styles, it should not be *above* the steel rim profile. Just *outside* it. I hope my attached screenshots explain (also in the first post of this thread but I think I need to explain this more).

By the way, if sharp edges are wanted you can use smoothing groups on the surfaces.

Last edited by Scawen, Tue 16 Jan 2024, 16:37.

Quote from Scawen :

Regarding the N.400S GT4

The spoke object does exceed limits. It has 6095 triangles but the limit is 1600 so this has been inserted into the veh using a hack.

The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game. Lower polygon count is better for game models.

Given the very high resolution main model, I don't know how much of the generation time is caused by the spoke object. But the spoke object is excessive and also wasteful - there is a lot of detail also in a rim object that mostly can't be seen as it is hidden by the so-called spoke object.

This is my mod and I have already explained my position on this matter. As for the spokes, it's a bit surprising to me to see messages about "hacks", when the LFS official discord channel was calmly discussing instructions from draggo on how to do it and there were mod reviewers there as well. And I thought it was common practice to do, just dont need to be an moron and make spokes over 10k and veh file over 2mb. And because it turns out to be such a big deal seeing this thread yesterday I started changing the spokes and rim to hit the limits. Its your game and your rules.

And I uploaded it to the site today with other fixes over an hour ago, but for some reason the LFS still has the old version. And new version is not published

Quote from Scawen :

Given the new rim editor allows good detail to be produced by the rim cross-section, I can see no reason why the rim editor could not be used as intended in this case and use the spoke model for... spokes.

Because the rims in this mod were made before the rim editor was updated, which allowed making details like flanges and bead and what I was talking about earlier. And because of this, I had to use the spoke editor in those days..

Last edited by Aleksandr_124rus, Tue 16 Jan 2024, 13:53.

We learned that some mod creators have discovered loopholes and used hacks to exceed the limits for models.

The limits are needed to provide fast loading and the smooth online experience that LFS is known for. They are defined and enforced in the editor to maintain high frame rates and minimise glitches when people leave the pits or when their car is damaged.

These limits are now checked by our online system when a mod is uploaded and it will be blocked from online use if the limits are exceeded or there is an invisible LOD as described below.


New checks:

1) One notable loophole was that the local editor did not check all configurations before allowing the model to be exported. Some people submitted mods with a lot missing in the main configuration, to allow them to include excessive detail in other configurations.

To check this before submitting a mod with multiple configurations:
- Enter the modeller from the vehicle editor
- Click the configuration buttons below the layer switches
- If a configuration exceeds the limit you will see a red number of "tris" or "pts"

2) Another method used to bypass the limits was a hack for spoke objects in which a model with much greater than allowed size is placed into the veh file using external software.

The rim editor was improved a lot in version 0.7E, allowing much more flexibility in the rim design. Mod creators should become familiar with it because in most cases you can use the rim editor as intended (for rims) and use the spoke model as intended (for spokes). But some rim designs may be better suited to being part of the spoke object. A new triangle limit of 4240 has been set, which is shared between the rim object and the spoke object. This is supported in the new Editor Patch and there is a new video about creating realistic rims in the LFS Editor.



3) Another mistake was often made by some mod creators, who submitted mods with nothing at all in LOD2. It causes cars to have no shadow and to disappear in the middle distance. There is no need for this. It is acceptable for an unfinished mod to only have 2 levels of detail. This is explained in the thread about Invisible LOD2.


Current limits:

LOD1: 65536 (points or triangles, including all subobjects)
Middle LOD (if there is one): 8192 triangles / 12288 points
Total for rim object and spoke object combined: 4240 triangles


NOTE about limits:

The limits are very high and are not targets to aim for.
Higher triangle counts are bad for performance and load times.
LOD1 65536 is really too much and can cause various types of slowdown.
LOD2 8192 is really far too much - a sensible number would be around 1000.


Editor update:

A new editor has been released to help with limits and wheel editing: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/106792

Last edited by Scawen, Fri 23 Feb 2024, 19:51.

Quote from MandulAA :

I'm quite out of touch in terms of mods, not sure if the N.400S GT4 mod exceeds any limits or if relevant at all...

Regarding the N.400S GT4

The spoke object does exceed limits. It has 6095 triangles but the limit is 1600 so this has been inserted into the veh using a hack.

The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game. Lower polygon count is better for game models.

Given the very high resolution main model, I don't know how much of the generation time is caused by the spoke object. But the spoke object is excessive and also wasteful - there is a lot of detail also in a rim object that mostly can't be seen as it is hidden by the so-called spoke object.

Given the new rim editor allows good detail to be produced by the rim cross-section, I can see no reason why the rim editor could not be used as intended in this case and use the spoke model for... spokes.

Quote from turbofan :

on a full server where people are allowed to pit anytime, that pit lag forbids racing. Sometime on JaR u get so much people, that u can have a string of pit exits so close from each one and u cant just take a corner properly.

Also people tend to gather in same places, so u can have 15-20 cars swarming at that place, making fps drop to sometimes 10 on my old q6600 system.

Pit lags got worse and worse since some monthes, I didnt have some much drops last summer so it's good if checks are implemented and limits enforced. Having 50% of a mod's polycount on the rims is absurd, go racing instead.

I totally agree with you I suffer from the same problem whenever the server is crowded (30 players plus) I start get pit exit lag and sometimes it freezes for few seconds specially when someone is using those drift spec cars (s13, s14, s15), and now since I discovered that high poly rims have something to do with pit exit lag as scawen says I'll have to fix my mods too.

after all I don't think this decision is bad at all since we have rim editor that allows pretty good and detailed rim lip, on rim spoke we just need to get creative.

Quote from AR92 :

According to shape of the rims of old cars, they are mostly made out of one piece and there are holes on it.

It seems to me, two pieces actually. On a traditional steel wheel, the "Rim" part and the "Spoke" part come from separate pieces of metal.

I found this video very interesting:




By the way, does everyone know that in the spoke editor, if you are actually using "number of spokes" more than 1, the editor allows you to stitch one spoke perfectly to the next? Triangles can be connected from the "main" spoke to the one to the left of it (magenta points). Then click "wire" view mode to check that edges are shared correctly.

Quote from AR92 :

Conflict of what priorities?

Well, I don't really expect you to understand unless you've tried coding a 3D graphics engine. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Quote from AR92 :

One of my mods has 480 tri for single spoke and can't really find a way to reduce it more without losing details, and cuz of this, it only permits to increase it to 3 spokes yet i need 5 more to complete a old steel rim

So far you're not really trying.

Quote from Scawen :

Use the RIM EDITOR to make the rim.
Use the SPOKE EDITOR to make the spokes.

Try to really understand the diagrams in my first post. if you don't listen, you won't learn. What you are calling a steel "rim" is actually a whole wheel, and the rim itself looks nothing like a real steel rim. A steel rim follows the yellow lines in the rim editor, which you are failing to observe.

You really need to try and learn to use the rim editor and then you will find there are plenty of triangles left for your spokes.

Also, go for a walk and have a look at some real steel wheels.

Last edited by Scawen, Mon 15 Jan 2024, 14:37.

I have been working as an industrial designer for over 10 years, (primarily modeling) I model all my mods myself. I hope this makes you aware that I know what I'm talking about.

Quote from Scawen :

A little bit? Yesterday the system detected an individual spoke object with over 11,500 triangles, which is more than enough for a whole vehicle.

Even in the mobile gaming industry, racing games the limits are higher than 11k tris for car. Unless the graphics are stylized to low poly. In modern PC simracing games LFS has the smallest amount of polys right now.

Quote from Scawen :

Have you learned to use the rim editor properly? This is not clear from your reply.

1600 triangles for some spokes is way more than enough.

I wouldn't say that, my slogan is beauty in the details. The more details, the more realistic the mod looks. I can working with a 65.5k limit on a car (But sometimes I wish there was more). But 1600 for spokes, that's too low for many cases. Yes, if your spokes are 5-6 relatively straight sticks, there's nothing complicated here. (and even then we won't see modeled nuts and air valve there...and the constant use of hard edges with is not good for realism) but if the spokes are more complicated, that's where it gets tricky and there's a loss of details to get to the limits. And I have no idea what to do if you have to make rims with complex designs like BBS. You'll have to make a lot of sacrifices in the form of giving up some details like pattern in middle and nuts.

In my mod, I had to remove the nuts and add them as hub obj and use a hard edges. Hard Edges are bad because they literally don't exist in reality, which is why it often looks weird. There is no object in real world that converges towards the edge with a 90 degree surface, everything has a chamfer. For example, on the picture with the real rim on which I used as a reference clearly visible chamfer on the spoke, which has a specific shine that makes this rim even more beautiful, this shine is impossible in LFS with hard edges (with different color groups). But it is possible with a chamfer (bevel). Also in blender hard edges should be "looped" that it would be correctly transferred to the LFS editor as it is converted to color groups and that makes it even harder to use. (in blender shading it is not necessary to loop the hard edge to see the result) Instead, I prefer to use the bevel with additional edges wherever possible..But the limitation on spokes makes this almost impossible. And that's not even taking into account other rims with complex designs.

EDIT: I made a version my spokes with nuts and bevels in necessary places and I got 3.7k..

Last edited by Aleksandr_124rus, Mon 15 Jan 2024, 07:24.

It's not the time to talk to me about changing the limits. I am working on other things and could do without a battle against mod hackers.

The rim editor updates were introduced during the test patch stages. It would have been good to discuss it at that time, as you may know that is what test patches are for. To introduce updates and test them. The idea of a test patch is not just to keep quiet and hope I don't notice the use of hacking tools, which I admit I have been slow to notice.

There is a rim editor, a spoke editor and there are also hub objects, that you are free to use within the limits.

Hey Scawen,

Expanding on the above...

I've spent this morning doing some research into different rims within LFS now that the limits are being enforced.

I've attached a sheet that I've looked at some of the staff picks, approved, and unapproved mods with triangle count for the rims, whether they are using the rim editor to it's potential, or if they opt to use the hub obj.

I believe that the 1600 tri limit is way too low for any reasonable amount of detail. Especially if you want to include some details like better lug nuts, or bolts around a 3 piece wheel. Texturing doesn't cut it, tried that method. Using a hub obj doesn't always cut it either, unless you designed the mod with that in mind from the beginning, many mods are already 60k+ tri. I'm sure this was plenty when designing the XRT at 8k tris total for the mod.

Compared to the main mod that has the limit of 65k, the rim detail doesn't match the quality we can do in the main mod.

As for the right amount of tris, I think 4096 would be enough to provide the detail that we are trying for (maybe others can chime in here), especially after working so hard within the 65k limit for the main mod to provide as much detail as efficiently as possible. For example, I aim to have base models at around 50k tris, to allow for modifications like body kits, and other detailed accessories that are part of drifting and racing.

If there is a concern for upping the limit, it seems that people have been skirting around the system since the limit is too low. Since avoiding the whole check, there could be rims at even 22k tri, resulting in 88k tri total, agreed that is far beyond what lfs was designed for and can cause issues with pit lag, which is compounded when mods have configs that go above 65k tri max...

When you mentioned that there was a high poly count in one spoke, often modders will import from blender which contains the whole rim, and just use "1 spoke", this is especially true when the rim has say 6 spokes, but only 5 lug nuts, which using the spoke system doesn't really work for.

Again, I'd love to embrace native tools, and work with the system, but I think the limit needs to be increased before any take up from the modders. Maybe a staged approach could be considered, from 1600 to 3200, to 4096, or above.

Are you sure you are using the correct version?

Does it show 0.7E on the entry screen when you start the editor?

I don't know how to use Blender, so I'm making it with an editor.

Hey Scawen,

We understand the benefits of the rim editor, but for me ive never been a huge fan of how it functions in its current state although in concept is great. In spoke editor, you can continue to extrude circle points again and again and finish a fully stepped lipped rim nice and clean with a good rim edge and bead while moving the camera around and then texturing how you want + sometimes ive deleted triangles in the lips for air valves or other rare cases (creating odd vintage rare wheels)

When using the rim editor, you have to

- no extrusion function to continue building surface, same as an exhaust system (rim editor is pretty minor so this is more just something that ive been used to for modelling/ time saver if small)
- Cant select multiple points with square selection like spoke editor (if i recall)
- no camera movement so if you want to zoom in or out, you cant.
- texturing was always odd, i seen the rim can now have more texture freedom recently so that was beneficial
- No point connection to actual wheel, so rim to wheel triangle connections just clip through each other sometimes gives weird connection lines depending on poly quality in the spoke editor. You notice the triangle lines were the wheel face meets rim.
- Sharing wheels online means now sharing the Rim+Spoke+png files.


I should say though the rim editor has had some new updates and the quality you can get now from rim editor is much greater, and it is pretty quick and easy to create a good rim exactly the same as i mention in Spoke Editor without having to use a lot of poly to create and smooth circle + every extrusion ups the triangle count.

It seems ive writen a huge paragraph, so ill try and sum it up as the current system (spoke + rim) functions really well & optimized… And i know some people in our community are not as fortunate for greater pc hardware… but its now 2024* and the poly count for wheels being 1600 was pretty low, hence the work around. 11500+ is steep as its 40k together… but i know mods with higher poly cars or wheels and never heard complaints in 40+ host is full hanging out in “Just a Ride”. I’ve actually mainly heard frame complaints from max prop limit touge layouts we’ve raced on xD.

Thanks for listening to my ted talk, hopefully you’ve all enjoyed ❤️

*building or buying a secondhand pc that can run lfs is fairly obtainable. If someone disagrees or their conditions are different that’s completely okay, but then they probably dont have the cash then to drop on a old racing game anyways and will stick to demo maybe S1 or ask for S3 in the LFS discord lol

Hello, i have found this bug and it doesnt sllow me upload my mod:

Vehicle mod archive * : The .veh file in the archive did not pass validation: Invalid file sub-revision version (1). Please use the latest official LFS Vehicle Editor's export function to create the mod archive.
I tried everything possible but no solution found, i didnt touch the ZIP files, i use LFSE 7E, tried restarting pc and re exporting files and tried aswell a different browser.

Quote from Evolution_R :

I always thought you knew and it was OK if someone exceed the limit a little bit.

A little bit? Yesterday the system detected an individual spoke object with over 11,500 triangles, which is more than enough for a whole vehicle.

Quote from Drifteris :

Can we have it at least double that for bikes? Because wheel is visible from both sides unlike cars and only 2 wheels instead of 4.

Have you learned to use the rim editor properly? This is not clear from your reply.

1600 triangles for some spokes is way more than enough.

Quote from LUNDQUIST MOTORSPORT :

What happens with mods already uses those modded rims?

The hacked mods that are already uploaded have not been detected, so everyone else can continue to experience the associated frame rate hit (admittedly this is probably not noticeable for most people in the current graphics system) and the pit-out glitch (slower generation of the mod when exiting the pits).

EDIT: This thread is now obsolete.
A new triangle budget of 4240 is shared between spoke and rim objects
You can get the new editor in the Editor Test Patch Thread


I recently learned that some people discovered a hack that allowed them to exceed the triangle limits for spoke objects.

The mod checker now makes sure you do not exceed triangle limits when uploading a mod.

There shouldn't be any need to exceed the limit of 1600 triangles per spoke object.

The trick is... do not include the rim in the spoke object!

Use the RIM EDITOR to make the rim.
Use the SPOKE EDITOR to make the spokes.

The rim editor has been updated in the recent update. I did a lot of work on it and it is a lot better than in the original LFS Editor. You create the cross-section of a rim by adding points and connecting the points with surfaces. The rim uses the first mapping from the spoke object, so you can use any material settings you wish (including a texture if you like).

There is a new guide in the rim editor that shows the cross-section of a steel rim when you are in the rim editor. The idea is that the steel rim represents the minimum amount of material. Alloys have thicker metal and exceed the steel rim outline.

These two images show the sequence for setting up a realistic rim.

EDIT: Added 3 more images showing examples of steel rim and two (of many) possibilities for alloy rims.

First set the correct rim width.


Then edit the rim, making sure you cover the steel rim profile.


An example of a steel rim style:


Alloy example 1:


Alloy example 2:

Last edited by Scawen, Thu 18 Jan 2024, 19:27.

Ok but i downloaded the file and i eneter it in my Lfs editor map,but Microsoft Defender says that this app is unknown and it may be dangerous to my computer

Krita might be nice image editor aswell.

Make sure to check <game path>/data/skins/Skins_README.txt if you haven't already.

And if you got the urge to load-in image saved in .dds format, you can try out ImageMagick of FFmpeg to do so, quick google will show you what you need to get them running. Than both programs require just this one command line for basic usage:

Just remember that the 2D plane of the skin file LFS needs, due to technical reasons with 3D graphics, does not have proper aspect ratio when imported to the game. Thus, for example even size circle in the editor will become bit squeezed / elipse. Maybe one day someone will make plugin for blender to edit the skin when it's already mapped on car for best preview.

You can use any image editor that is able to export to .jpg. I use Affinity Designer. Here's a short list of applications you can use:

- GIMP
- Photoshop
- Canva
- Pixlr

gonna upload interior progress video, car is almost done in editor.

hi, I would like to update the lfs editor to see what's new in the editor, but there is one problem. When I unlocked the lfs editor (with my username and password), the version was still 0.7C. Please give me suggestions. Thank you!

Hello guys,
I would like to share my findings regarding slick tires and drift.

I'm playing around with mod editor. My goal is to achieve longer drift time or/and faster drift car (by faster I mean the car that slides with higher speed).
I found out, which is for all of You probably obvious, that sweet spot for a sport/normal tires is around 300HP on <1000kg car. Adding more power doesn't make a car faster (I tried clocked myself on the same track achievieng 39.xx lap each time - 300, 600, 900, 1200HP cars with 16-18inch wheels in high/low profile tires).

Then I tried to explore the possibilites of slick tires. They're burned after two corners in any given scenarios, but with the setup of rear wheels at 315/35 - 19" and 375 kPa and tires blown the car behaves like normal and it allows me to slide for almost 7 laps (4 laps without time loss). Also - a car with 10000HP, 890KG weight and this tires runs a full four drift laps at the same time - 34.xx. Using mods like saliva i achieved 39.xx on 1st lap, 41.xx 2nd, 45.xx 3rd and then tires blown). Burned slick gives 5seconds faster lap time than first lap on normal tires, 7 seconds faster than second, 11 seconds faster than third lap.
The only main difference is You have to use left foot brake instead of handbrake.

Here's the footage as a proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYiuE5QxhN8&ab_channel=luq_fpv

And also I did not do anything with the front tires - so there is a space for a better setup which might give more handling/drifting time

I'm using mouse as a steering wheel, so it's quite messy ride

Last edited by LukasM, Fri 5 Jan 2024, 10:51.

Interesting but I would like it in game editor.