Just saw the line and the comments about the server.
I might rejoin the grumpy side, but sorry.

I'm giving a +1 to what Bass Driver has said.

We at RC are running all our stuffs on one of our admin's plateform which is freely hosted at his work.
We adpoted this way a few months ago (maybe more than a year, can't remember), in case to stop to have a constant needing of funds to keep the servers running.
It took us a lot of time of moving away of OVH to have to working and running without issues...
We tried to just running them separatly, at any way (server on ovh, server on new platform, server on another dedicated hoster), it was causing issues between the insim and the server.

I'm not sure we're going to stay if you really plan to get rid of all the external hostings.
That's indeed a big slap for most of the servers that are probably running in the same way of us.

Also i hope the new way won't affect us in Live For Speed France with the way the old gcomp works...

Quote from Victor :

I would really appreciate it if people think about this a bit. Do you really need to host insim applications on the gaming machine itself? I've thought about this for quite a while - I can make it work of course, using containers for example. But that also opens up a whole other can of worms, if I allow anyone to just run any arbitrary application. For a few euros per month you could rent an ssh host then basically (= the game server in a container with you having SSH access) with which you can do anything. And that is for me not an acceptable situation.

You can always connect your insim application to your game server, but you'll have to host the insim application yourself, either at home or elsewhere.

I'll gladly make other improvements to the hosting system btw. Please note them down and save them for later. We'll probably make a separate thread on this topic later.

Just need Insim hosting as well. Point to a docker container, PORT+HOST get injected as env vars (or the pods are networked together appropriately) and boom.

Of course there'd need to be more work around CPU quota limits and stuff.

I have a doubt
For example, I take all cars and change only the car itself (not engine, tires etc.) I change, for example, XRT steering wheel and I put XRR steering wheel, and I put a rollbar and spoiler type XRR (without changing any mechanical and tire accessories ) basically just visual only
will you be able to go to any normal session? When will I have to log into a server of my own?


The idea is to make the bodywork competitive but without changing engines, etc.
only bodywork

Quote from Bass-Driver :

Yes, i host couple of LFSLapper insims which i edit/add/delete/move scripts/files daily .Its for development as for normal use.

Connecting LFSLapper from my PC to the server will cause delays. Which is not ideal for insim connections. Especially with alot of players on the server.

Same for cruise servers aswell. They might have a database (SQL/Files) they have to edit daily/weekly).

I can't really see the problem at all. You still run the InSim programs where they are, only the game server is in a different location, with good ping.

I don't know what you mean about adding the scripts and so on. You just carry on as before. Just that for the game server you use your assigned IP address instead of a local one.

Quote from Kova. :

It took us a lot of time of moving away of OVH to have to working and running without issues...
We tried to just running them separatly, at any way (server on ovh, server on new platform, server on another dedicated hoster), it was causing issues between the insim and the server.

I'm not sure we're going to stay if you really plan to get rid of all the external hostings.
That's indeed a big slap for most of the servers that are probably running in the same way of us.

Also i hope the new way won't affect us in Live For Speed France with the way the old gcomp works...

Again, I don't know what issues you are talking about. If there is some kind of a bug, we'd like to help. But InSim is designed to work with remote computers so there shouldn't really be a problem.


Just to be clear, we can't change our mind on the hosting. It's the only way we can avoid piracy and hopefully have a viable business again. But we will certainly be interested to know about any issues you are facing and try to help with them.

Quote from joaopaulopt :

I have a doubt
For example, I take all cars and change only the car itself (not engine, tires etc.) I change, for example, XRT steering wheel and I put XRR steering wheel, and I put a rollbar and spoiler type XRR (without changing any mechanical and tire accessories ) basically just visual only
will you be able to go to any normal session? When will I have to log into a server of my own?


The idea is to make the bodywork competitive but without changing engines, etc.
only bodywork

Yes, because it's now a modded car.

It looks amazing! More than enough to keep me entertained while the physics and modelling come together. And a slight reprieve from the coming LYTpocalypse, too

Quote from Scawen :

Also it was becoming painfully clear that we needed a way to prevent piracy. Seeing your business melt away due to continual theft isn't a great feeling. Just putting out the updated tracks with the old system would have been a nice gift for the pirates and we simply can't do that any more.

Absolutely. I will have to run only the PiranMOTO servers that are in good use for a while but it is for good reason, and the direct host option looks good.

Quote from Scawen :

And apparently every task takes longer than I can possibly imagine.

Rule 1 of planning

Quote from Victor :

I would really appreciate it if people think about this a bit. Do you really need to host insim applications on the gaming machine itself?

The only thing I can think of having used in PiranMOTO that would be broken by this is a function to repopulate the layouts directory. I don't use it any more, but might need to if the LYTs disappeared with a restart of the host. If we could upload layouts and download replays with an API, that would handle everything I can think of with just a little tweaking to my code. Most of the same-host trickery I do is for clients rather than DCON

Quote from Scawen :

I can't really see the problem at all. You still run the InSim programs where they are, only the game server is in a different location, with good ping.

I don't know what you mean about adding the scripts and so on. You just carry on as before. Just that for the game server you use your assigned IP address instead of a local one.


Again, I don't know what issues you are talking about. If there is some kind of a bug, we'd like to help. But InSim is designed to work with remote computers so there shouldn't really be a problem.


Just to be clear, we can't change our mind on the hosting. It's the only way we can avoid piracy and hopefully have a viable business again. But we will certainly be interested to know about any issues you are facing and try to help with them.

I don't really remember what they were, to be fair. Our admin has worked on its side at work, and then it was fixed.
Then we'll have to dig in for a new period of debugging with a instable insim, good to know :/

The 2nd issue was indeed the fundings.

But guess if that stays on the way, we won't be able to pay for the servers and we'll just disappear...

So... 1st mod based on the brick car tutorial, Cybertruck?

Quote from Racon :

The only thing I can think of having used in PiranMOTO that would be broken by this is a function to repopulate the layouts directory. I don't use it any more, but might need to if the LYTs disappeared with a restart of the host. If we could upload layouts and download replays with an API, that would handle everything I can think of with just a little tweaking to my code. Most of the same-host trickery I do is for clients rather than DCON

Having a REST API for layouts might be nice.

Quote from Scawen :

... The new tyre physics has a better feeling, which is encouraging as it is based on physical principles. So maybe some good solid work on fixing the link between heating, slip, load, pressure and grip could be sorted out and we'd be ready to go. I prefer this option, though the other way might be quicker to get the graphics to you.

You are the only one to know, but comparing current physics and the "new one" : which one is having the less flaws/most realistic handling/driveable facility global ratio ?
As I suppose the new graphics will imply a lots of "patch testing" before being ready to a global release, I would find better to have the new physics system delivered with it :
pro :
* test patch means it is not the final release
* if as stated in your post the issue in the new physics is regarding the link between those variables, a community testing may show you quicker the flaws of some of your iterations (the community is known to find quickly the flaws to improve their laptimes )
* you would get finally the opportunity to focus only on the new physics version
* allowing mods imply to have cars with crazy power output : current physics are not so nice when increasing heavily the power with lfs tweaker for example, so having the latest physics seem more suitable at first sight
against :
- several topics to deal with in the test patch (but is that new ?)
- people would massively use the test patch if it is driveable, and not anymore the current version

Modding support is fantastic news, especially being with official tools. One of the main reasons why VOB mods were so bad was because they were very difficult to make without official support. Official tools should make the whole process much easier.

And having car mods with their own specs and physics and everything? And potentially being able to "copy" an existing LFS model? Wow. While they might still be useful for S2 and lower players who won't have access to the mod tools, for S3 users the tweaker applications will become pretty much obsolete. I can have my V10 formula 1 car without them!

The hosting situation is a problem, though. If quite a few servers on S2 might die because of this, I can't even imagine how the demo community will handle this - There might not even be a demo community anymore. Hosting will be far too expensive for them. You might as well not even have a demo if it reaches that point - Make it so nobody can download LFS unless they have paid for a license, and the game will require a log in to run.

Quote from x t :

I am waiting for the update and I will be one of the first converters to cars, but I may need some time to understand the method of the program, but I have a question, how many Polygons or what is their maximum? @Scawen

I am currently coding for a limit of 65535 triangles, or 65535 vertices, in the combined output model, including all subobjects.

This is massively higher than any official LFS car at the moment, so should be fine if people adopt the right approach. You need to make a 'game quality' mesh rather than a 'film quality' mesh, if you see what I mean. There are technical reasons to stay below 65536.

To change the code to overcome these technical reasons would be quite a change and, although possible, doesn't seem a good idea at this time. The fact that you can already make models hugely more detailed than any LFS model, seems more than enough for now.

I'm already concerned, with this high number, that we will get a glitch when you leave the pits and your car is generated, and also each time your vehicle is damaged, the vertices must be sent to the graphics card again. But this change is all about allowing people to be creative so I'm trying not to get in the way of that!

I have mixed feelings about this news. I totally get it that piracy has to be stopped to save the LFS business, but even with the upcoming changes, they will continue running what they have and are still making money from it (unless that can be stopped as well, but I doubt that). I have run 5 servers for many many years on a VPS with Lapper installed on it. Maybe we can still do the same with the new way and maybe even for less money, but with the same freedom as well? Now I can RDP to the VPS and do what ever I like. I made all sorts of scripts, made all things possible that the team I am "working" for needs and I think that would change.

Mod support is not something I am looking forward to at all, but I can see that many people want it. Hopefully it won't cause all sorts of legal issues as LFS will never be able to take up big companies and their lawyers.

All in all mixed feelings here.

Quote from gu3st :

Yes, because it's now a modded car.

OK thank you

I would like to have cars turned competitive without changing anything
So at this point I can create models for my team just visuals

Quote from gu3st :

Having a REST API for layouts might be nice.

There was some API stuff visible in the leak as well It's still in its infancy and only does a few things (and uses Oauth2 authorizations) but yes I want to add hosting endpoints in the near future for tasks that should performed programmatically. There will soon be documentation on that in the manual and when the pages open up fully.

Regarding the insim programs currently deployed on the host side (mainly Lapper and Airio I imagine), a "simple" container option available on the same host (with direct access by "internal" IP address but without access to the "LFS host" part) is not a possible solution ?

Quote from joaopaulopt :

I have a doubt
For example, I take all cars and change only the car itself (not engine, tires etc.) I change, for example, XRT steering wheel and I put XRR steering wheel, and I put a rollbar and spoiler type XRR (without changing any mechanical and tire accessories ) basically just visual only
will you be able to go to any normal session? When will I have to log into a server of my own?


The idea is to make the bodywork competitive but without changing engines, etc.
only bodywork

I'm not exactly sure what you mean but I will describe how it works.

If you create a mod based on any LFS car and you upload it, then you can use it on:
1) a server that allows all mods, or
2) a server that allows a limited set of mods, including your mod.

There is an option: Allow mods - yes / no

If mods are allowed, then all mods are allowed by default.

But of course there must be an option "allow mods A, B, C, D" and no others.

Actually this limited list of mods is not yet coded but I intend to enter public testing without that in place, as we don't want to delay more than necessary. In my mind the list of allowed mods becomes a very high priority as soon as the mods system is in public testing.

Quote from Victor :

There was some API stuff visible in the leak as well It's still in its infancy and only does a few things (and uses Oauth2 authorizations) but yes I want to add hosting endpoints in the near future for tasks that should performed programmatically. There will soon be documentation on that in the manual and when the pages open up fully.

Hey Scawen. I have one questions. About the maximun polygons - 65535polys does that means for the whole car or per mesh.

Quote from Scawen :

I am currently coding for a limit of 65535 triangles, or 65535 vertices, in the combined output model, including all subobjects.

This is massively higher than any official LFS car at the moment, so should be fine if people adopt the right approach. You need to make a 'game quality' mesh rather than a 'film quality' mesh, if you see what I mean. There are technical reasons to stay below 65536.

To change the code to overcome these technical reasons would be quite a change and, although possible, doesn't seem a good idea at this time. The fact that you can already make models hugely more detailed than any LFS model, seems more than enough for now.

I'm already concerned, with this high number, that we will get a glitch when you leave the pits and your car is generated, and also each time your vehicle is damaged, the vertices must be sent to the graphics card again. But this change is all about allowing people to be creative so I'm trying not to get in the way of that!

I think this limit is totally fine for the time being , it will force to make use of textures for fine details instead of meshes.

Speaking of textures, I just really hope that you could implement importing UV maps/textures with the base mesh.

Oh yes, please allow to limit to specific cars/mods later if we want to organize "only one type" race (or "only A, B, C mods" as you say or only UF1300 and Xfg for example).

Quote from Bass-Driver :

Noone want to host old servers after the new version is out lol

Sure bass,sure

https://youtu.be/EBhnzJTzEUA

Quote from Viperakecske :

Sure bass,sure

https://youtu.be/EBhnzJTzEUA

Ok, i take back my words

Quote from Scawen :

This is massively higher than any official LFS car at the moment, so should be fine if people adopt the right approach. You need to make a 'game quality' mesh rather than a 'film quality' mesh, if you see what I mean. There are technical reasons to stay below 65536.

I'm already concerned, with this high number, that we will get a glitch when you leave the pits and your car is generated, and also each time your vehicle is damaged, the vertices must be sent to the graphics card again. But this change is all about allowing people to be creative so I'm trying not to get in the way of that!

I've heard people have a stutter in the game when someone leaves the pits, would this increase of "quality" worsen this stutter in the case someone leaves the pits with a mod that has more quality than any other lfs car for example? My pc does this stutter too but my pc is literally a disgusting slow machine .

Another question is about CMX viewer, will it be upgraded to implement these new mods ? When doing a skin i always use CMX to see the result and i guess it should be the same for mods.